How a railroad strike could send food prices soaring

[I_M4_AU 7,763]

7 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

Good to see you have become a big union supporter.  Thank you.

I was a member of a union for 34 years, how about you?

[icanthearyou 4,462]

1 minute ago, I_M4_AU said:

I was a member of a union for 34 years, how about you?

Excellent.  Again, glad to see you supporting labor unions.

[I_M4_AU 7,763]

1 minute ago, icanthearyou said:

Excellent.  Again, glad to see you supporting labor unions.

I understand how unions work.  The union I was in drove our company into bankruptcy because of their insane attitude the company wasn’t tell us the truth about their financial situation, even though the union advisors told them differently.

They are collectively stupid, but they should have the opportunity to negotiate for themselves.

[icanthearyou 4,462]

Just now, I_M4_AU said:

I understand how unions work.  The union I was in drove our company into bankruptcy because of their insane attitude the company wasn’t tell us the truth about their financial situation, even though the union advisors told them differently.

They are collectively stupid, but they should have the opportunity to negotiate for themselves.

That narrative was used to outsource many jobs.  Are you sure? 

No matter, glad to see you supporting organized labor today.

[I_M4_AU 7,763]

1 minute ago, icanthearyou said:

That narrative was used to outsource many jobs.  Are you sure? 

No matter, glad to see you supporting organized labor today.

Am I sure about what?  Did we go into bankruptcy?  Yes, we did.  The industry I was in could not outsource my job so there wasn’t some pressure to replace workers.

[icanthearyou 4,462]

4 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

Am I sure about what?  Did we go into bankruptcy?  Yes, we did.  The industry I was in could not outsource my job so there wasn’t some pressure to replace workers.

What company was this?

[I_M4_AU 7,763]

7 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

What company was this?

I was a pilot for a major airline.

Our situation was and is very unique.

[icanthearyou 4,462]

Just now, I_M4_AU said:

I was a pilot for a major airline.

Our situation was and is very unique.

Which airline?  Eastern?

Do you think the unions have served pilots well, increased your lifetime earnings?

[I_M4_AU 7,763]

Just now, icanthearyou said:

Which airline?  Eastern?

Do you think the unions have served pilots well, increased your lifetime earnings?

No it wasn’t Eastern.  This was during the time after 9-11 and our company, like others, were hemorrhaging money.  It was the second bankruptcy that reduced our wages by 50% and, through government influence, we lost our defined benefit pension.  Sounds a lot like Biden and the RR doesn’t it.

Did the union increase my lifetime earnings?  Probably, but some of the decisions were just down right stupid.  The union, along with the government, did not increase my retirement benefits.  They devastated it.  Not complaining, because I was able to do very well.  

Unions are a mixed bag.

[icanthearyou 4,462]

Just now, I_M4_AU said:

No it wasn’t Eastern.  This was during the time after 9-11 and our company, like others, were hemorrhaging money.  It was the second bankruptcy that reduced our wages by 50% and, through government influence, we lost our defined benefit pension.  Sounds a lot like Biden and the RR doesn’t it.

Did the union increase my lifetime earnings?  Probably, but some of the decisions were just down right stupid.  The union, along with the government, did not increase my retirement benefits.  They devastated it.  Not complaining, because I was able to do very well.  

Unions are a mixed bag.

Interesting that you will not divulge the name of the airline.  Interesting how your story is evolving.  Please,,, say more.

[AUDub 11,131]

14 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

Interesting that you will not divulge the name of the airline.  Interesting how your story is evolving.  Please,,, say more.

I don't think he's making it up. Was it USAir, IM?

Edited December 5, 2022 by AUDub

[icanthearyou 4,462]

2 minutes ago, AUDub said:

I don't think he's making it up. Was it USAir, IM?

Oh, I don't think he is making it all up.  I just think he is being intentionally evasive.

 

[I_M4_AU 7,763]

23 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

Oh, I don't think he is making it all up.  I just think he is being intentionally evasive.

 

People in the industry know exactly which airline.  Is there a reason I should divulge what airline?  Does is matter?

[icanthearyou 4,462]

22 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

People in the industry know exactly which airline.  Is there a reason I should divulge what airline?  Does is matter?

Yes, facts and information do matter.  Why wouldn't you? 

[I_M4_AU 7,763]

30 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

Yes, facts and information do matter.  Why wouldn't you? 

If you had knowledge of the airline industry I could see discussing which airline it was.  Just saying the airline would not give you any insight as to the workings of how the unions reacted to the negotiations in the two bankruptcies.

Suffice it to say, when government gets involved in negotiating in union business it usually doesn’t work out well for the union.

[icanthearyou 4,462]

2 hours ago, I_M4_AU said:

If you had knowledge of the airline industry I could see discussing which airline it was.  Just saying the airline would not give you any insight as to the workings of how the unions reacted to the negotiations in the two bankruptcies.

Suffice it to say, when government gets involved in negotiating in union business it usually doesn’t work out well for the union.

Nice evasion tactic.

[CoffeeTiger 5,082]

when labor unions are strong some companies aren't going to be able to cut it in the labor market and will go out of business. 

That's not inherently a bad thing. 

 

[I_M4_AU 7,763]

4 minutes ago, CoffeeTiger said:

when labor unions are strong some companies aren't going to be able to cut it in the labor market and will go out of business. 

That's not inherently a bad thing. 

 

Labor unions don’t want to kill the goose that lays the golden egg, sometimes they forget that.  In your case above they don’t care about the union workers they are suppose to represent, they are more worried about the reputation of the labor union.  IMO  

If the company is not worth saving, the employees, through the union, can bring it down.  Eastern Airlines is a good example.

[SLAG-91 1,483]

3 hours ago, icanthearyou said:

Yes, facts and information do matter.  Why wouldn't you? 

Do you think he's making all of his information up? If so, then just say it. If not, then it doesn't make a damned bit of difference and you're just being nosy.

I've got about two more years of paying CYA dues to a "union" group (more of an advocacy group that includes legal services if needed, not a true union that can collectively bargain, strike, etc.), then the teaching shingle gets hung up.

[icanthearyou 4,462]

47 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

 Eastern Airlines is a good example.

The union did not bring down Eastern.  Buying a new fleet and not being able to service their debt brought them down.

[icanthearyou 4,462]

22 minutes ago, SLAG-91 said:

Do you think he's making all of his information up? If so, then just say it. If not, then it doesn't make a damned bit of difference and you're just being nosy.

I've got about two more years of paying CYA dues to a "union" group (more of an advocacy group that includes legal services if needed, not a true union that can collectively bargain, strike, etc.), then the teaching shingle gets hung up.

First, you obviously haven't followed along.  Second, I was not aware that his employment was a matter of national security.

Thanks.

[I_M4_AU 7,763]

3 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

The union did not bring down Eastern.  Buying a new fleet and not being able to service their debt brought them down.

See, here is where you just don’t get it.  What you said above is what put them in bankruptcy court.  The unions not signing any deals with Eastern is what brought them down.  No employees, no airline.

[icanthearyou 4,462]

5 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

See, here is where you just don’t get it.  What you said above is what put them in bankruptcy court.  The unions not signing any deals with Eastern is what brought them down.  No employees, no airline.

Sure.  Believe whatever you care to believe.

I know you do not care for facts but,,, for those who do.

https://simpleflying.com/eastern-air-lines-1991-shutdown/

Edited December 5, 2022 by icanthearyou

[I_M4_AU 7,763]

1 hour ago, icanthearyou said:

Sure.  Believe whatever you care to believe.

I know you do not care for facts but,,, for those who do.

https://simpleflying.com/eastern-air-lines-1991-shutdown/

Did you even read the article?

Ultimately the failure of Eastern Airlines can be blamed on several factors:

Competition from low-cost carriers like Spirit and JetBlue (JetBlue didn’t start flying until 1998)**

The dominance of American Airlines at its Miami hub 

The stubbornness of the head of the International Association of Machinists union Charlie Bryan 

The failure of owner Frank Lorenzo to negotiate a compromise 

In retrospect, many would say that Frank Lorenzo was a visionary who saw the future of airlines in the United States. The fact that public opinion was on the side of the Eastern employees did not help matters though. In the end, Eastern was doomed to fail and probably would not have survived no matter who won the management union struggle.

**It (1986) was at this point that Frank Lorenzo, who controlled Continental Airlines, stepped in and bought the whole airline for only $615 million, adding Eastern to his existing prizes of People's Express, Frontier Airlines, Texas Air, and New York Air.  Lorenzo used Eastern's core assets for his other airlines, devising various ways to use them to make money for his other properties.

http://www.thesilverliners.org/library/the-history-of-eastern-air-lines.cfm

Lorenzo could care less about Eastern Airlines, he had his other airlines that could use the assists.  The unions hated Frank Lorenzo and Borman threatened the unions that he would sell the airline to Lorenzo if they did accept pay and benefit cuts.  They didn’t and Lorenzo bought the airline.  Lorenzo gambled that the unions were splinted because ALPA (pilots) and the IAM (mechanics) were mortal enemies.  He lost on that one and could not get any agreements with the unions to keep the airline operational.

Here is an article from ALPA about the demise of Eastern:

Eastern pilots called off the more than nine-month sympathy strike on November 23, 1989, when all efforts failed to find a “white knight” to buy the airline or obtain a Presidential Emergency Board to resolve the strike fairly. The airline lingered under trusteeship for eight more months going under in January 18, 1991.

http://www3.alpa.org/portals/alpa/fastread/2019/FastRead-20190306.htm

If you want to believe Frank Borman and/or Frank Lorenzo liquidated the airline because of debut; why did they try to restructure under bankruptcy?  The only reason they turned the airline over to a trusteeship was they couldn’t sustain operations.  The unions forced the issue.

 

[icanthearyou 4,462]

1 minute ago, I_M4_AU said:

Did you even read the article?

Ultimately the failure of Eastern Airlines can be blamed on several factors:

Competition from low-cost carriers like Spirit and JetBlue (JetBlue didn’t start flying until 1998)**

The dominance of American Airlines at its Miami hub 

The stubbornness of the head of the International Association of Machinists union Charlie Bryan 

The failure of owner Frank Lorenzo to negotiate a compromise 

In retrospect, many would say that Frank Lorenzo was a visionary who saw the future of airlines in the United States. The fact that public opinion was on the side of the Eastern employees did not help matters though. In the end, Eastern was doomed to fail and probably would not have survived no matter who won the management union struggle.

**It (1986) was at this point that Frank Lorenzo, who controlled Continental Airlines, stepped in and bought the whole airline for only $615 million, adding Eastern to his existing prizes of People's Express, Frontier Airlines, Texas Air, and New York Air.  Lorenzo used Eastern's core assets for his other airlines, devising various ways to use them to make money for his other properties.

http://www.thesilverliners.org/library/the-history-of-eastern-air-lines.cfm

Lorenzo could care less about Eastern Airlines, he had his other airlines that could use the assists.  The unions hated Frank Lorenzo and Borman threatened the unions that he would sell the airline to Lorenzo if they did accept pay and benefit cuts.  They didn’t and Lorenzo bought the airline.  Lorenzo gambled that the unions were splinted because ALPA (pilots) and the IAM (mechanics) were mortal enemies.  He lost on that one and could not get any agreements with the unions to keep the airline operational.

Here is an article from ALPA about the demise of Eastern:

Eastern pilots called off the more than nine-month sympathy strike on November 23, 1989, when all efforts failed to find a “white knight” to buy the airline or obtain a Presidential Emergency Board to resolve the strike fairly. The airline lingered under trusteeship for eight more months going under in January 18, 1991.

http://www3.alpa.org/portals/alpa/fastread/2019/FastRead-20190306.htm

If you want to believe Frank Borman and/or Frank Lorenzo liquidated the airline because of debut; why did they try to restructure under bankruptcy?  The only reason they turned the airline over to a trusteeship was they couldn’t sustain operations.  The unions forced the issue.

 

Obviously, you either did not read or, did not comprehend.

But again, believe what you will.