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Mikey defends Gus' OL recruiting...


bigbird
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5 hours ago, AuburnNTexas said:

Your link does have 2 in 2014 but look whi the 2 are. One is Dampeer. Bird had him just not in the correct year.  Langlo did seign early but because of coaching change could have left but Harsin convinced him to stay so he has 3 commits during his time hear. All 3 are players who can play inside or Outside based on measurables.  I do agree Harsin should have signed more last year even if projects. Same complaint I had with Malzan.  So far this year we only have 1 commit that does not mean we will stay at one O-Line commit this year.  Lets wait till cycle is over both HS and Portal before we judge this class on O-Line.  I believe we sign 1-2 more HS O-Line in this class and probably 3 Portal O-Line.

It's really not all that hard to understand.  Again, some are more concerned with trying to be right than being honest.

Also, if you click the link in my post under Dampeer, it shows him as a 2013 recruit. I stand corrected. Dampeer was a 2014 signee not a 2013 signee like I stated. Obviously that means absolutely dick and is another piss poor attempt to distract from his failed opinions.

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8 hours ago, Mikey said:

..or he's failed miserably in bringing in O-line talent from the portal. I wonder which one it is?

He's failed miserably, so far. What does that have to do with the hole Gus left the OL in?

 

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3 hours ago, bigbird said:

Also, if you click the link in my post under Dampeer, it shows him as a 2013 recruit. I stand corrected. Dampeer was a 2014 signee not a 2013 signee like I stated. Obviously that means absolutely dick and is another piss poor attempt to distract from his failed opinions.

It means you claimed Gus signed fewer than he actually did. So yes, that does kind of mean something.The discussion is numbers. Gus signed two in each of his first two years. Harsin signed one (I'm not counting Langlo) in each of his first two years. So, if Gus left a mess then Harsin has made it worse.

9 hours ago, AuburnNTexas said:

Your link does have 2 in 2014 but look whi the 2 are.

That doesn't matter. The subject was numbers signed. Their success matters in the overall picture but not in the context of this discussion.

 

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2 minutes ago, Mikey said:

It means you claimed Gus signed fewer than he actually did

Are you sure? Maybe you need to go back and read things again.  You're looking sillier than normal 

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9 minutes ago, bigbird said:

Are you sure? Maybe you need to go back and read things again.  You're looking sillier than normal 

Here's what you yourself posted:

Gus

2013(13th):  Xavier Dampeer 

                       Deon Mix

https://www.on3.com/college/auburn-tigers/football/2013/commits/

 

2014(6th): Braden Smith 

That incorrectly gives Gus three signees in his first two years. He clearly signed four. You math is even worse than normal.

 

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1 hour ago, Mikey said:

Here's what you yourself posted:

Gus

2013(13th):  Xavier Dampeer 

                       Deon Mix

https://www.on3.com/college/auburn-tigers/football/2013/commits/

 

2014(6th): Braden Smith 

That incorrectly gives Gus three signees in his first two years. He clearly signed four. You math is even worse than normal.

 

I've already asked. Who did I miss?

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7 hours ago, bigbird said:

I've already asked. Who did I miss?

 Devonta Danzey in 2013. Dampeer belongs in 2014. Gus signed two in each year. Not good but 2 X better than Harsin's first two years. 

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6 minutes ago, Mikey said:

 Devonta Danzey in 2013. Dampeer belongs in 2014. Gus signed two in each year. Not good but 2 X better than Harsin's first two years. 

I appreciate it. Yes, I did miss him. He wasn't listed on the on3 site I used.

 

That said arguing over 1 recruit to try and prove Gus' competency is silly.  Fact is, Gus' First two OL classes were on par with CBH's.  Yet, many praise his classes and chastise CBHs.  That's beyond hypocritical.

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1 minute ago, bigbird said:

I appreciate it. Yes, I did miss him. He wasn't listed on the on3 site I used.

 

That said arguing over 1 recruit to try and prove Gus' competency is silly.  Fact is, Gus' First two OL classes were on par with CBH's.  Yet, many praise his classes and chastise CBHs.  That's beyond hypocritical.

I haven't praised his first two classes with regard to O-line recruiting. I'm not trying to prove Gus's competency. What I am doing is revealing the falsehood of posters blaming Gus for Harsin's failures.

If there was indeed a problem with the O-line personnel that Harsin inherited, he's done absolutely nothing to upgrade and improve the situation. Either he doesn't think it's a problem or has been unable to correct it. Either way, it's time to stop blaming Gus.

Anyone who has kept up with this recruiting board has watched as one O-line target after another has slip/slided away throughout the summer. The only O-line prospect we have committed is a 3* player from Auburn High School. A few weeks ago I checked the 2023 class Rivals 250. All but a handful of the O-line prospects listed have already committed elsewhere. This is Harsin's third recruiting class and we should be doing better. Is the game over for this cycle? No, but we're playing from way behind the chains.

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19 hours ago, Mikey said:

It means you claimed Gus signed fewer than he actually did. So yes, that does kind of mean something.The discussion is numbers. Gus signed two in each of his first two years. Harsin signed one (I'm not counting Langlo) in each of his first two years. So, if Gus left a mess then Harsin has made it worse.

That doesn't matter. The subject was numbers signed. Their success matters in the overall picture but not in the context of this discussion.

 

So in your way of looking at recruiting. If a coach leaves and a new coach comes in any player signed before the 2nd coach comes in doesn't count even though the new coach gives the signed players the option to leave. Part of what the new coach does is convince the signed players to stay which we did with Langlo. So he does count for Harsin.  

I know you hate Harsin but sometimes you have to bend over backwards to show your hate.  Where is the Mikey who years ago said he is my coach so I support him.   It is funny for years you preached the mantra we need more LB's because there is a high failure rate in that position. I agreed with you and I also think the same thing could be said for O-Line.  I am proud of the super seniors who stayed with us all this time they obviously love Auburn but to be honest I doubt if any of them would be starters on most SEC O-Lines. We should have been bringing in younger players every year under Malzan and under Harsin.

Harsin and Friend deserve some of the blame for where we are at with O-Line as they have not recruited the position well at all but I don't see how you can still seem to say that Malzan is also not partly responsible for the situation we are in.

I give Harsin and Friend a small pass on 1st year coming in Late and bringing in Smith but they get no pass for single O-line last year and I am waiting till end of this cycle before passing judgement on the class they are currently recruiting. I will admit that at this point they are not looking good.

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5 hours ago, Mikey said:

I haven't praised his first two classes with regard to O-line recruiting. I'm not trying to prove Gus's competency. What I am doing is revealing the falsehood of posters blaming Gus for Harsin's failures.

If there was indeed a problem with the O-line personnel that Harsin inherited, he's done absolutely nothing to upgrade and improve the situation. Either he doesn't think it's a problem or has been unable to correct it. Either way, it's time to stop blaming Gus.

Anyone who has kept up with this recruiting board has watched as one O-line target after another has slip/slided away throughout the summer. The only O-line prospect we have committed is a 3* player from Auburn High School. A few weeks ago I checked the 2023 class Rivals 250. All but a handful of the O-line prospects listed have already committed elsewhere. This is Harsin's third recruiting class and we should be doing better. Is the game over for this cycle? No, but we're playing from way behind the chains.

They're both failures on this front. Part of Harsin's current problem ab-so-lutely rests with Gus and his inability to recruit competently on the OL. Part of the same problem rests with Harsin's inability to recruit on the OL as well. Personally, I'd say the former issue is greater than the latter. Very few OL recruits start as true or even RS freshmen. In order to improve the current OL, Harsin needed to land STUDS and/or transfers. He did neither. 

But the only reason he needed to land STUDS and/or transfers is because of Gus. From what I've seen, Kam Stutts has grown leaps and bounds under Harsin/Friend, but honestly, he hasn't been very good in the first two games. Functional but not good. That's basically a summary of the entire offensive line.

Harsin was asked to change that, and he hasn't. That's a major problem. Gus is the one that depleted the unit though. He deserves a lot of blame for the mediocrity that has become the Auburn Offensive Line. He and his staff ran it into a completely mediocre operation, AND they depleted the numbers. Even if Harsin (or the next coach) knocks OL recruiting out of the park, it'll take three seasons of lights out recruiting to change the culture of that room.

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11 minutes ago, mcgufcm said:

They're both failures on this front. Part of Harsin's current problem ab-so-lutely rests with Gus and his inability to recruit competently on the OL. Part of the same problem rests with Harsin's inability to recruit on the OL as well. Personally, I'd say the former issue is greater than the latter. Very few OL recruits start as true or even RS freshmen. In order to improve the current OL, Harsin needed to land STUDS and/or transfers. He did neither. 

But the only reason he needed to land STUDS and/or transfers is because of Gus. From what I've seen, Kam Stutts has grown leaps and bounds under Harsin/Friend, but honestly, he hasn't been very good in the first two games. Functional but not good. That's basically a summary of the entire offensive line.

Harsin was asked to change that, and he hasn't. That's a major problem. Gus is the one that depleted the unit though. He deserves a lot of blame for the mediocrity that has become the Auburn Offensive Line. He and his staff ran it into a completely mediocre operation, AND they depleted the numbers. Even if Harsin (or the next coach) knocks OL recruiting out of the park, it'll take three seasons of lights out recruiting to change the culture of that room.

meryl-streep-yes.gif

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Does this mean it’s over? 😝 

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8 hours ago, AuburnNTexas said:

So in your way of looking at recruiting. If a coach leaves and a new coach comes in any player signed before the 2nd coach comes in doesn't count even though the new coach gives the signed players the option to leave. Part of what the new coach does is convince the signed players to stay which we did with Langlo. So he does count for Harsin.  

I know you hate Harsin but sometimes you have to bend over backwards to show your hate.  Where is the Mikey who years ago said he is my coach so I support him.   It is funny for years you preached the mantra we need more LB's because there is a high failure rate in that position. I agreed with you and I also think the same thing could be said for O-Line.  I am proud of the super seniors who stayed with us all this time they obviously love Auburn but to be honest I doubt if any of them would be starters on most SEC O-Lines. We should have been bringing in younger players every year under Malzan and under Harsin.

Harsin and Friend deserve some of the blame for where we are at with O-Line as they have not recruited the position well at all but I don't see how you can still seem to say that Malzan is also not partly responsible for the situation we are in.

I give Harsin and Friend a small pass on 1st year coming in Late and bringing in Smith but they get no pass for single O-line last year and I am waiting till end of this cycle before passing judgement on the class they are currently recruiting. I will admit that at this point they are not looking good.

I actually agree with him on counting previous guys with the old staff. The season Harsin was hired was messed up timing wise due to covid pushing it all back. As a result, Gus was canned on like December 10th after the MSU game instead of end of November, and ENSD was a week later.

Due to the season being pushed back, Harsin wasn't hired until like a week after early signing day. He had no chance to assess the class and determine who to sign. So Langlo, your example, was signed before Harsin took the job. He had no opportunity to convince Langlo to sign or tell him to pound sand.

Thus, imo, everyone from that ENSD belongs to Malzahn's staff. Not fair to blame or credit Harsin and co for those December guys who they had no control over. Reference how Billy Napier barely let anyone sign in December at Florida last year for example. He wanted to eval himself and make decisions on who to send papers.

Trust me, while it hurts your example with Langlo, overall it's fair to Harsin. The main contributors from that 2021 class are gonna come from the February singing day that he and his staff ran. Many of the December guys from that class busted.

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8 hours ago, mcgufcm said:

AND they depleted the numbers.

Perhaps. Counting heads on a current roster, I see 14 scholarship O-line guys. Two were brought in by Harsin, the other 12 are Gus's signees. This is the second season that Gus has been gone. 12 still standing after two years isn't that bad. What's bad is that nothing has been done to replace those who've graduated or otherwise left.

PS: Tashawn Manning, who transferred out, is starting on Kentucky's O-line. The guys playing now aren't all that bad.

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Not all that bad is kinda the problem. They aren’t good either. 

Btw, I count 15 on the roster and 3 Harsin signees (Langlo, Smith, and Harris). 

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2 hours ago, mcgufcm said:

Not all that bad is kinda the problem. They aren’t good either. 

Btw, I count 15 on the roster and 3 Harsin signees (Langlo, Smith, and Harris). 

Langlo signed before Harsin was hired. See 302's post above for a more detailed explanation that wasn't written by me.

There are at least three walkons listed on the roster I was looking at. Did you count one of those or did I miss one scholarship player?

I think maybe the Gus Bus needs a bumper sticker with regard to this question. Seen at times on some old car is "I may be slow but I'm ahead of you". Gus's O-line recruiting may not have been sensational but every O-line player who has entered a game this year is a Gus signee. So, while they may not be much, two seasons after Gus left they are still the best we have.

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I didn't count walk-ons, but I did count Brahms, which is wrong.

I guess we can debate whether Langlo, who signed in December but had a new coach before signing day and could've backed out of his NLI, counts toward the guy who wasn't the coach when he reported or for the coach for which he's played every second of his career. I count every guy in the 2021 signing class toward the coach they actually played for... from the first second of their careers. You may not. 

And pointing out that every guy who has played was a Gus signee goes back to my earlier point. That's completely expected. The alternative would have been to find an absolute stud HS signee and/or transfers. Those are the only guys Harsin could've signed to push these guys out of their spots, and if that's what you're relying on to improve your OL, you're in a really bad spot.

Gus left us in a position where the OL is fine but not good, and absent something completely extraordinary, it takes three years to reshape an OL room. Older guys are expected to hold down the jobs. On the OL more than any other spot, if you're playing multiple young guys, it's because you suck. For us, because Harsin has failed to recruit the position well, three years to reshape the room won't be enough. It'll take at least two more classes to get it up to the level we need, and that's optimistic. 

Gus left a mess. Harsin has failed to improve it or clean it up.

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12 hours ago, mcgufcm said:

Gus left a mess.

Gus left a lot of O-line players. We can't know how many he'd have signed for the 2021 and 2022 classes. It's a pretty good bet there'd have been more than two.

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20 hours ago, mcgufcm said:

Gus left a mess. Harsin has failed to improve it or clean

Pretty simple. 

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A team is made (generally) of five signing classes:  Fr, RFr, So, Jr, Sr

I don’t care what metric you use, leaving 11 guys in the So-Sr classes is not “a lot.” It’s manageable, but it’s not like he left a bunch of guys that meant we had no worries for two years. 

The other issue you’ve dodged is the fact that none of those guys are amazing. He left an adequate number of decent (but not good) offensive linemen in the upper classes.

As I’ve said (and other have said), Harsin’s failure to sign more than three guys in two years is his failing. But Gus left a mediocre mess and a room with a culture of mediocrity baked in for years and years. 

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On 9/13/2022 at 10:04 PM, au302 said:

I actually agree with him on counting previous guys with the old staff. The season Harsin was hired was messed up timing wise due to covid pushing it all back. As a result, Gus was canned on like December 10th after the MSU game instead of end of November, and ENSD was a week later.

Due to the season being pushed back, Harsin wasn't hired until like a week after early signing day. He had no chance to assess the class and determine who to sign. So Langlo, your example, was signed before Harsin took the job. He had no opportunity to convince Langlo to sign or tell him to pound sand.

Thus, imo, everyone from that ENSD belongs to Malzahn's staff. Not fair to blame or credit Harsin and co for those December guys who they had no control over. Reference how Billy Napier barely let anyone sign in December at Florida last year for example. He wanted to eval himself and make decisions on who to send papers.

Trust me, while it hurts your example with Langlo, overall it's fair to Harsin. The main contributors from that 2021 class are gonna come from the February singing day that he and his staff ran. Many of the December guys from that class busted.

I think the biggest issue is that he is pushing the narrative that this is Harsins 3rd class, but since Gus recruited the majority of the 1st class, they all count as Gus recruits. I dont believe it is fair to say he has had 3 classes and the 1st class only counts for Gus. The fact that we are still arguing who was better between Harsin and Gus is kind of childish. Gus left us with the bare minimum and Harsin hasnt done much to improve the situation.

Imo this is Harsins 2nd recruiting class, not 3rd.

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35 minutes ago, mcgufcm said:

I don’t care what metric you use, leaving 11 guys in the So-Sr classes is not “a lot.” It’s manageable, but it’s not like he left a bunch of guys that meant we had no worries for two years.

Now look at the dispersion of those players as well. How many OT did we sign?

Not including the super seniors, how many RsSo-RsSr do we have? 

https://auburntigers.com/sports/football/roster?sort=position

https://www.ourlads.com/ncaa-football-depth-charts/roster/auburn/90061

 

Johnson: Jr

Jernigan: RsSo

Wright(had to move for depth): Jr 

Irvin: RsSr

Stutts: RsSr

Jackson(had to move for depth): RsSr

Coffey: RsSr 

Zierer: RsRs

 

RsSr: 5

RsJr: 0

Jr: 2 

RsSo: 1 

The total from those 4 classes that GUS signed is 8 OL and two of those were signed as DT and moved for depth. Just look at the last three classes though.

 

 

EJ Harris: Fr

Langlo: RsFr 

Smith: RsFr 

 

RsFr: 2

Fr: 1

The total from CBH's 2 classes is 3. Not good enough by any metric, but he has a chance to finish with numbers in this class.

 

Like you said, CBH hasn't done much to improve. In fact it's about the exact same as Gus' first couple and last few. So why would one who defended Gus' OL recruiting be so hypercritical about CBH's OL recruiting.

 

I think we all know the answer.

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