The United Methodist Church is Undergoing a Schism

[AUDub 11,147]

Quote

58 Louisiana churches leave United Methodist Church denomination amid national schism

15 churches hail from the New Orleans, Baton Rouge and Lafayette areas

The United Methodist Church cut ties with 58 churches in its Louisiana conference Saturday amid a nationwide schism in the Protestant denomination over sexuality and theology. 

The disaffiliations, approved in a virtual state conference session Saturday, were in line with decisions many Louisiana churches made in recent weeks to leave the national congregation. The church has long been roiled by tensions between traditionalists and progressives, most notably over the issues of same-sex marriage and LGBTQ clergy.

Six churches leaving the conference are from the New Orleans area. They are: Fitzgerald UMC of Covington; Pearl River UMC of Pearl River; St. Timothy UMC of Mandeville; Sun UMC of Sun; Trinity UMC of Buras & Triumph; and Waldheim UMC of Covington. 

Another seven churches are from the Baton Rouge area: Clear Creek UMC of Clinton; Coopers Chapel UMC and Loranger UMC of Loranger; Darlington UMC of Greensburg; Deerford UMC of Zachary; Live Oak UMC of Denham Springs; and NewSong on Old Perkins of Prairieville. 

Still two others are from the Lafayette region: First UMC of New Iberia and Lydia UMC of Lydia. 

St. Timothy, which at 6,000 members is one of the largest Methodist congregations in Louisiana, voted to pursue disaffiliation on Nov. 1, with church leadership saying in an email to members that "the UMC as we know it is changing." 

Six churches leaving the conference are from the New Orleans area. They are: Fitzgerald UMC of Covington; Pearl River UMC of Pearl River; St. Timothy UMC of Mandeville; Sun UMC of Sun; Trinity UMC of Buras & Triumph; and Waldheim UMC of Covington. 

Another seven churches are from the Baton Rouge area: Clear Creek UMC of Clinton; Coopers Chapel UMC and Loranger UMC of Loranger; Darlington UMC of Greensburg; Deerford UMC of Zachary; Live Oak UMC of Denham Springs; and NewSong on Old Perkins of Prairieville. 

Still two others are from the Lafayette region: First UMC of New Iberia and Lydia UMC of Lydia. 

St. Timothy, which at 6,000 members is one of the largest Methodist congregations in Louisiana, voted to pursue disaffiliation on Nov. 1, with church leadership saying in an email to members that "the UMC as we know it is changing." 

The church's current bishop, Cynthia Fierro Harvey, told members at the Saturday session that "this particular moment does not dismiss our journey."

"I also acknowledge that with this day does come pain," said Harvey, who has been reassigned to Houston in the Texas conference. "Relationships have been splintered. Legacies have been compromised."

She ended Saturday's meeting by leading the congregation through a tearful prayer. 

The congregation's delegates voted 487-35 in favor of the departures. At least two-thirds of members needed to back the disaffiliations for them to take effect. 

 

https://www.nola.com/news/article_fec29106-62aa-11ed-98ce-5b4c3e0880cc.html

My neighbors are South African and are going to the vote for disaffiliation at their church this evening. It will pass. 

Edited November 13, 2022 by AUDub
Fixed formatting

[icanthearyou 4,462]

Anyone who believes John Wesley would split the church does not know much about John Wesley.

Then again, if you believe Jesus would want us divided by doctrine and scripture rather than united in His love and grace,,,

There are no exceptions to,,, love everyone.  Love is not condemnation.  Love is the His mercy, His grace. 

When churches go through these divisions, I fully understand why some people look at religion as silly and destructive.

[BizTiger 242]

2 hours ago, icanthearyou said:

Anyone who believes John Wesley would split the church does not know much about John Wesley.

Then again, if you believe Jesus would want us divided by doctrine and scripture rather than united in His love and grace,,,

There are no exceptions to,,, love everyone.  Love is not condemnation.  Love is the His mercy, His grace. 

When churches go through these divisions, I fully understand why some people look at religion as silly and destructive.

 

Amen and amen. 

United Methodist lay delegate here. It's sad. North Alabama Conference is voting on disaffiliating members next month. I consider myself personally a centrist in all this (and most matters outside of church business), but I don't want the conservative leaning churches to go. The UMC needs all voices, and I wish the global denomination allowed for local church control over the LGBT issue. 

[SaltyTiger 7,790]

21 hours ago, BizTiger said:

 

Amen and amen. 

United Methodist lay delegate here. It's sad. North Alabama Conference is voting on disaffiliating members next month. I consider myself personally a centrist in all this (and most matters outside of church business), but I don't want the conservative leaning churches to go. The UMC needs all voices, and I wish the global denomination allowed for local church control over the LGBT issue. 

Thought the Global was formed with churches that have taken a stance on the issue. 

[PUB78 1,358]

On 11/13/2022 at 5:20 PM, AUDub said:

 

https://www.nola.com/news/article_fec29106-62aa-11ed-98ce-5b4c3e0880cc.html

My neighbors are South African and are going to the vote for disaffiliation at their church this evening. It will pass. 

Good for them and their church.

[TitanTiger 20,472]

The conservatives have little choice but to leave.  They saw the mess and litigation that dragged on when orthodox Episcopal churches wanted to leave, and often had to leave behind church buildings and properties their great-grandparents helped build and generations of their families were baptized in because of clauses that granted ownership to the denomination.  Those congregations had to start over renting space from other churches or renting out storefronts.  All because the denomination had been taken over at the top by theological liberals who saw no problem ordaining bishops who denied the divinity of Christ, questioned whether Jesus was the only way to salvation, jettisoned traditional Christian sexual morality, and slowly turned the screws on the those who dissented from these moves.  

The UMC churches have a window that closes in 2023 that allows them to leave with their property so long as they pay into the retirement funds and some other financial obligations they owe.  They won't be left homeless by choosing to follow their consciences.  But if they don't leave now, then they will lose that window and will be trapped as a tiny minority in a denomination dominated by theological progressives with no real option to leave, unless like so many Episcopalians, they are willing to start over utterly from scratch.

It's sad to see what the UMC and TEC have become.  But people stuck it out as long as they could.  It became increasingly apparent that there was no will for coexistence, especially as the progressives gained more and more power at the seminaries and denominational leadership levels of both groups.  "Listening" and "conversation" was just code for waiting until they had the upper hand, and then people had to choose as the progressives pressed their advantage and ram-rodded through their changes.  I'm thankful that most faithful Methodists won't have to go through what refugees from TEC had to go through.

[TitanTiger 20,472]

1 hour ago, SaltyTiger said:

Thought the Global was formed with churches that have taken a stance on the issue. 

I think he was saying he wishes the global UMC would allow for local control on the issue.  You're thinking of the newly formed Global Methodist Church comprised of theologically conservative, orthodox Methodists leaving the UMC.

 

[TitanTiger 20,472]

On 11/13/2022 at 8:08 PM, icanthearyou said:

Anyone who believes John Wesley would split the church does not know much about John Wesley.

Then again, if you believe Jesus would want us divided by doctrine and scripture rather than united in His love and grace,,,

There are no exceptions to,,, love everyone.  Love is not condemnation.  Love is the His mercy, His grace. 

When churches go through these divisions, I fully understand why some people look at religion as silly and destructive.

John Wesley would be at the front of the line calling to account theological revisionists casting aside the teachings of Scripture and millenia of Christian teaching on marriage and sexuality, to speak nothing of the other theological rot and heresy being propagated by so many in the UMC today.  He'd be among the loudest voices calling them to repent and return to the truth.

Love isn't touchy feelings and kum-ba-yah "we're all ok as long as you be you and no one says anyone's wrong" nonsense.  Sometimes love is telling someone they're barreling down a road in the dark and the bridge is out and even if it pisses them off to do so, you do whatever you can to get them to stop and turn around and get back on the right road do they don't drive off the cliff to their own destruction.  Sometimes it's being willing to speak difficult truths that clash with the tide of culture.  Of course that's not all it is, but if you can't or won't do that you aren't being loving.  That's hatred of your fellow human beings in the worst form.

[PUB78 1,358]

2 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

John Wesley would be at the front of the line calling to account theological revisionists casting aside the teachings of Scripture and millenia of Christian teaching on marriage and sexuality, to speak nothing of the other theological rot and heresy being propagated by so many in the UMC today.  He'd be among the loudest voices calling them to repent and return to the truth.

Love isn't touchy feelings and kum-ba-yah "we're all ok as long as you be you and no one says anyone's wrong" nonsense.  Sometimes love is telling someone they're barreling down a road in the dark and the bridge is out and even if it pisses them off to do so, you do whatever you can to get them to stop and turn around and get back on the right road do they don't drive off the cliff to their own destruction.  Sometimes it's being willing to speak difficult truths that clash with the tide of culture.  Of course that's not all it is, but if you can't or won't do that you aren't being loving.  That's hatred of your fellow human beings in the worst form.

Amen.

[icanthearyou 4,462]

11 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

John Wesley would be at the front of the line calling to account theological revisionists casting aside the teachings of Scripture and millenia of Christian teaching on marriage and sexuality, to speak nothing of the other theological rot and heresy being propagated by so many in the UMC today.  He'd be among the loudest voices calling them to repent and return to the truth.

Love isn't touchy feelings and kum-ba-yah "we're all ok as long as you be you and no one says anyone's wrong" nonsense.  Sometimes love is telling someone they're barreling down a road in the dark and the bridge is out and even if it pisses them off to do so, you do whatever you can to get them to stop and turn around and get back on the right road do they don't drive off the cliff to their own destruction.  Sometimes it's being willing to speak difficult truths that clash with the tide of culture.  Of course that's not all it is, but if you can't or won't do that you aren't being loving.  That's hatred of your fellow human beings in the worst form.

I believe you couldn't be more wrong, wrong about John Wesley, wrong about Jesus, wrong about the bible.

Your "orthodoxy" defies the call to love.  I think it is wise to heed the words of Jesus, not those of man.

[icanthearyou 4,462]

When you read the bible, what should be revealed to you is the spirit of Jesus, His love, grace, mercy.

If you are inspired to be self righteous, judgmental, controlling,,, you just aren't getting it.

[TitanTiger 20,472]

9 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

When you read the bible, what should be revealed to you is the spirit of Jesus, His love, grace, mercy.

If you are inspired to be self righteous, judgmental, controlling,,, you just aren't getting it.

And you couldn’t be more wrong about what it means to love and the difference between saying unpopular but true things vs being “judgmental” or “self righteous,” not to mention John Wesley and Jesus. 

[icanthearyou 4,462]

Just now, TitanTiger said:

And you couldn’t be more wrong about what it means to love and the difference between saying unpopular but true things vs being “judgmental” or “self righteous,” not to mention John Wesley and Jesus. 

I appreciate your opinion.  Still, I will follow Jesus.

[TitanTiger 20,472]

5 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

I appreciate your opinion.  Still, I will follow Jesus.

As will I. I guess we’ll find out one day who was ignoring what His Father taught. 

[icanthearyou 4,462]

24 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

As will I. I guess we’ll find out one day who was ignoring what His Father taught. 

That is a very interesting statement.

I believe Jesus is the truth, the word, is God.

[TitanTiger 20,472]

3 hours ago, icanthearyou said:

That is a very interesting statement.

I believe Jesus is the truth, the word, is God.

As do I. 

If only there was a way we could know more about this Jesus guy?  Things He said, things he taught to His closest followers, prophecies about Him, etc. 

[icanthearyou 4,462]

7 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

As do I. 

If only there was a way we could know more about this Jesus guy?  Things He said, things he taught to His closest followers, prophecies about Him, etc. 

I think He was very capable of speaking on His own behalf.  I have always heard His voice very clearly.  His message, IMHO, is very simple, very clear.

Perhaps the inherent elements of organized religion have obscured his message?

Edited November 15, 2022 by icanthearyou

[TitanTiger 20,472]

4 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

I think He was very capable of speaking on His own behalf.  I have always heard His voice very clearly.  His message, IMHO, is very simple, very clear.

Interesting.  So the Bible/Gospel accounts are subordinate to your personal hearing? 
 

4 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

Perhaps the inherent elements of organized religion have obscured his message?

Hmm. Why should I trust your account of what Jesus is saying over others?

[icanthearyou 4,462]

1 minute ago, TitanTiger said:

Interesting.  So the Bible/Gospel accounts are subordinate to your personal hearing? 
 

Hmm. Why should I trust your account of what Jesus is saying over others?

You should not.  His message is very clear.  You should follow His message, His teaching.

[TitanTiger 20,472]

1 minute ago, icanthearyou said:

You should not.  His message is very clear.  You should follow His message, His teaching.

But the Scriptural accounts, which are literally 99.9% of what we know of this Jesus guy in the first place, aren’t trustworthy. But somehow you know apart from those accounts what He’s about and that this voice you’re hearing is legit? 

[icanthearyou 4,462]

2 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

But the Scriptural accounts, which are literally 99.9% of what we know of this Jesus guy in the first place, aren’t trustworthy.

Who said that?

[TitanTiger 20,472]

On 11/15/2022 at 3:03 PM, icanthearyou said:

Who said that?

Well, the Bible and especially the New Testament is the most attested to ancient document in existence, by an order of magnitude. Like where we have hundreds of manuscripts of Homer or Shakespeare, we have tens of thousands for the New Testament.  The documented accounts outside of these such as various apocryphal “gospels” and historians like Josephus are a drop in the ocean by comparison. 

Other than your personal encounters, what else would be look to for information on this Jesus, who He is and his teachings?

[icanthearyou 4,462]

36 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

Well, the Bible and especially the New Testament is the most attested to ancient document in existence, by an order of magnitude. Like where we have hundreds of manuscripts of Homer or Shakespeare, we have tens of thousands for the New Testament.  The documentatwd accounts outside of these such as various apocryphal “gospels” and historians like Josephus are a drop in the ocean by comparison. 

Other than your personal encounters, what else would be look to for information on this Jesus, who He is and his teachings?

I agree.  The bible is critical to understanding the spirit of Jesus.

[TitanTiger 20,472]

6 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

I agree.  The bible is critical to understanding the spirit of Jesus.

Is the Bible accurate in its account of Jesus, what He said and what he taught to his closest followers?

[icanthearyou 4,462]

4 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

Is the Bible accurate in its account of Jesus, what He said and what he taught to his closest followers?

I believe the bible accurately relays the spirit of Jesus, His message, His commandments.