The United Methodist Church is Undergoing a Schism

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

18 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

Following the bible is not important.

Following Jesus is everything.

Interesting. Can you contrast Following the bible with Following Jesus? 

[icanthearyou 4,462]

6 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

I've been to that church too.  Feeling the Holy Spirit will get you,,, "I'm sorry but, this probably isn't the church for you".  

Still, I've only been to one church where I was made to feel uncomfortable.  It wasn't so much the people.  They were actually quite nice but, when the box of snakes came out,,, I was on my way out.  Then, I saw the ladies putting out the weekly covered dish and,,, I decided to stay.  Squirrel meat with mushrooms, rice, gravy,,, delicious.

No joke brother Salty.  As I was headed (stealthily) towards the front door, I was thinking,,, if I can get back down the 10 miles of dirt road I got here on,,, I aint never coming back.  Not only did I go back, the next Sunday, after church, I found myself hunting squirrels with a man you had to be over 100 years old and, his blind beagle. 

[icanthearyou 4,462]

5 minutes ago, NolaAuTiger said:

Interesting. Can you contrast Following the bible with Following Jesus? 

Why?  Can you not?

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

3 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

Why?  Can you not?

No; they are your words. I'm asking what you meant. Can you tell me?

[icanthearyou 4,462]

3 minutes ago, NolaAuTiger said:

No; they are your words. I'm asking what you meant. Can you tell me?

I am sorry you cannot tell the difference between Jesus and the bible.  I do not know what to tell you.

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

1 minute ago, icanthearyou said:

I am sorry you cannot tell the difference between Jesus and the bible.  I do not know what to tell you.

Lol. Okay Itchy. 

[TitanTiger 20,469]

1 hour ago, AU9377 said:

Be careful what you wish for.  There are many small churches that will choose to leave and within 10 years will be unable to afford a pastor or pay the bills associated with running a church.

Yep, that's long been the sword the denomination left dangling over those smaller (usually more conservative) churches heads.  Play nice or the money dries up.

[icanthearyou 4,462]

12 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

Yep, that's long been the sword the denomination left dangling over those smaller (usually more conservative) churches heads.  Play nice or the money dries up.

That is not how the Methodist Church works.

[TitanTiger 20,469]

On 12/1/2022 at 12:53 PM, icanthearyou said:

That is not how the Methodist Church works.

That’s not how it should work, I agree. It’s not how the Episcopal Church “worked” either.

[icanthearyou 4,462]

1 minute ago, TitanTiger said:

That’s not how it should work, I agree. 

And again,,, you are misrepresenting how the Methodist Church works.

[TitanTiger 20,469]

1 minute ago, icanthearyou said:

And again,,, you are misrepresenting how the Methodist Church works.

lol ok

[AUDub 11,131]

41 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

Yep, that's long been the sword the denomination left dangling over those smaller (usually more conservative) churches heads.  Play nice or the money dries up.

Heck they're being eminently nice by allowing them to keep the facilities and all that. 

[TitanTiger 20,469]

6 hours ago, AUDub said:

Heck they're being eminently nice by allowing them to keep the facilities and all that. 

Mostly because that was negotiated when the conservatives still held a majority in the voting bodies. There’s an expiration date on that deal though. And I’ll guarantee you it won’t be renewed. 

By contrast, in the newly formed Global Methodist Church, all congregations retain full ownership of their buildings and property. They can leave with all of it if they choose at any time. 

[SaltyTiger 7,761]

8 hours ago, icanthearyou said:

No joke brother Salty.  As I was headed (stealthily) towards the front door, I was thinking,,, if I can get back down the 10 miles of dirt road I got here on,,, I aint never coming back.  Not only did I go back, the next Sunday, after church, I found myself hunting squirrels with a man you had to be over 100 years old and, his blind beagle. 

What are you attempting say?

[icanthearyou 4,462]

1 minute ago, SaltyTiger said:

What are you attempting say?

Just what I said.  There is no hidden meaning.  Just a strange yet, cool experience.

[AU9377 4,913]

On 12/1/2022 at 12:28 PM, SaltyTiger said:

Not sure what you consider a small church but many “community churches” have been in that position for years. 

I agree.  That only gets harder when you don't have the financial support of the larger UMC.

[Strychnine 1,802]

On 12/1/2022 at 9:02 PM, TitanTiger said:

Mostly because that was negotiated when the conservatives still held a majority in the voting bodies. There’s an expiration date on that deal though. And I’ll guarantee you it won’t be renewed. 

By contrast, in the newly formed Global Methodist Church, all congregations retain full ownership of their buildings and property. They can leave with all of it if they choose at any time. 

 

While I am not even remotely religious, I desperately hope that I am wrong.  I want to live in after-life where Titan, Ben, and ICHY have to break bread together, in the midst of passionate debate, and I get to be the scorekeeper.

[icanthearyou 4,462]

10 hours ago, Strychnine said:

 

While I am not even remotely religious, I desperately hope that I am wrong.  I want to live in after-life where Titan, Ben, and ICHY have to break bread together, in the midst of passionate debate, and I get to be the scorekeeper.

I'd like to talk to you privately after we finish the meeting to discuss rules and score keeping methodology.

 

$$$$$

Edited December 3, 2022 by icanthearyou

[Didba 5,256]

On 12/2/2022 at 10:54 PM, Strychnine said:

 

While I am not even remotely religious, I desperately hope that I am wrong.  I want to live in after-life where Titan, Ben, and ICHY have to break bread together, in the midst of passionate debate, and I get to be the scorekeeper.

I am in this boat. Reading this was very interesting. My mind turned off to this stuff so early on for me so hearing them discuss the schism is wild, course I was raised John McArthur churches and then converted to Catholicism for our wedding.

I enjoyed everyone's discourse but at the end of the day I just feel like who really knows what's what about any of this:

 

[cptau 169]

The UMC is one of the mainline Protestant denominations in the US.  They are 7 denominations also called the 7 sister churches. Unfortunately they are mostly losing members to more conservative churches or people elect to become unchurched.  There are a large number of no name churches popping up, some may go there. 

[DKW 86 7,410]

On 11/15/2022 at 6:32 PM, icanthearyou said:

The words of Jesus are the words of Jesus.  That is the only answer I can give you.  It is the truth.

There are something like 133 recognized Protestant Denominations. Everyone of them says they follow the teachings of Christ. Getting into a pissing match over doctrines and canon are literally doing the Devils Work. Read Galatians 5-6. I am from the ichy side of the argument. I have found myself in churches where doctrines of men have completely bypassed the bible. Afterall, we all worship the Blonde Haired, Blue Eyed, Jesus, right? (Hint: there are no white folks in the bible.) Here in America, we have allowed way too many men to teach the Word of God when they they knew nothing about it. As soon as someone starts talking works, I am out of there. My sister and her husband, after 70+ years of bondage in the law & works in the COC are now attending COTH. I could not be more pleased. 

¹³ You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh^[a]; rather, serve one another humbly in love. ¹⁴ For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”^[b] 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

¹⁶ So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. ¹⁷ For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever^[c] you want. ¹⁸ But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Edited December 7, 2022 by DKW 86

[PUB78 1,354]

On 12/2/2022 at 7:43 PM, AU9377 said:

I agree.  That only gets harder when you don't have the financial support of the larger UMC.

The UMC has built a massive bureaucracy that is partially funded by the individual churches.

[AU9377 4,913]

47 minutes ago, PUB78 said:

The UMC has built a massive bureaucracy that is partially funded by the individual churches.

I don't disagree.  I just believe that more than one thing can be true at the same time.

[homersapien 11,352]

FWIW, I discussed this briefly with one of my aunts over thanksgiving.  Most of my immediate family grew up and attended the Methodist church.  That church is not leaving. (Their minister had told him that they were welcome to organize a vote, etc., but he intended to stay with the UMC.

Interestingly, the focus of my aunt's discussion was this was primarily based on their music director who has been with them some time and is universally loved - but who is openly gay.  

Don't know how material that really is, but I had read that acceptance of homosexuality was at least one of the issues that propagated the schism.  The fact my aunt volunteered that story sort of confirms it to me.

One of my sisters - a MAGA conservative - attends a different Methodist church who is splitting.  The only thing she volunteered concerned the split was the "domination" of the UMC bureaucracy, such as assigning pastors, and presumably policy. (I didn't want to bring up the homosexuality issue with her.)

Edited February 6, 2023 by homersapien

[TitanTiger 20,469]

On 12/8/2022 at 1:09 PM, homersapien said:

FWIW, I discussed this briefly with one of my aunts over thanksgiving.  Most of my immediate family grew up and attended the Methodist church.  That church is not leaving. (Their minister had told him that they were welcome to organize a vote, etc., but he intended to stay with the UMC.

Interestingly, the focus of my aunt's her discussion on this was solely on current music director - who has been with them some time and is universally loved - but who is openly gay.  

Don't know how material that really is, but I had read that acceptance of homosexuality was at least one of the issues that propagated the schism.  The fact my aunt volunteered that story sort of confirms it to me.

One of my sisters - a MAGA conservative - attends a different Methodist church who is splitting.  The only thing she volunteered concerned the split was the "domination" of the UMC bureaucracy, such as assigning pastors, and presumably policy. (I didn't want to bring up the homosexuality issue with her.)

The issues mostly have to do with a widening disagreement over doctrine.  At its essence, it's whether Scripture is to be considered authoritative or whether it can be "reinterpreted" to fit modern views.  The details of how that difference plays out affects a wide variety of things, one of the biggest being sexuality.  Other dominoes fall from that - you have the official rules and doctrine of the denomination and what their bylaws and Book of Discipline say on these matters, and then you have bishops and pastors who ignore the things they don't agree with and nothing is done about it.  

But your sister isn't wrong in that there have, in parallel, been long running disagreements on the administrative bloat of the UMC - the amount of money it takes to keep such a hierarchical organization running (that money comes from local congregations who have to contribute a certain percentage to the national denomination).  Also, the way the UMC assigns pastors has been a sore spot for decades - even back to when I was a kid growing up in the UMC.  The big "mega" size UMC churches get to keep their senior pastors indefinitely as the denomination doesn't want run off big congregations, but everyone else who doesn't have that kind of ability to throw their weight around has to play Pastor Roulette every 3-5 years where the bishop just moves people around as he or she sees fit, sometimes seeming to favor certain churches that are in the bishop's good graces with the good, dynamic ministers and everyone else gets the leftovers.  Or sometimes it seems punitive - a church and pastor who don't walk in lock step with the bishop or have criticized decisions in the past suddenly find themselves on the outs with the bishop sending that pastor off to a failing church that's difficult to grow and make thrive and inserting one of "his guys" in the congregation that gave him too much lip.

Then there's the trust clause issue.  The UMC, like the Episcopal Church, was set up where the property and buildings of a congregation are held "in trust" by the denomination.  So a church that starts to realize they no longer align with the views and priorities of the UMC can't just easily leave and take all that with them, even though the local congregation and those who came before them paid for and had all of it built.  Even if 100% of the congregation and the pastoral staff voted to leave the denomination, they'd have to walk away with nothing - no land, no buildings, no hymnals, choir robes, communion sets, no money - nothing.  That's been a sticking point for a long time as well as it's now been used to hold congregations hostage in essence.

Now, a few years ago as all this was coming to a head there were a couple of temporary outs created.  At the time it was thought that the more liberal UMC churches/members would be the ones who'd utilize it but a protocol was worked out that was to be voted on at the 2020 General Conference that allowed for a more amicable divorce.  Dissenting churches could leave with their property and the assets of the UMC denomination would be equitably divided and other things agreed upon.  But then COVID hit and GC was delayed twice.  In the meantime a temporary clause that expires at the end of 2023 was created that wasn't as generous as the protocol but gave churches a window to leave if they wished, if they paid up front a certain percentage of payments due the UMC and paid a certain amount into the pastors' pension fund.

Now it appears that the protocol is dead.  Too many people who negotiated it have either had their terms expire on the committees they were on that had the ability to get it through, and because of the repeated delays, a lot of more conservative folks have left , meaning the liberals are now in the advantageous voting position and many have no desire to be so conciliatory anymore.  

As a result of all of the protocol being DOA and the expiration date on the window to leave, more conservative/orthodox churches are leaving now and a new more traditional/orthodox/conservative Methodist denomination formed for them to go to - the Global Methodist Church and it purposely has set itself up to address many if not all of these issues.  Besides the fact that it holds to a more traditional Christian view on the authority of Scripture and subsequently, human sexuality, it made big changes to the way the denomination is organized and the power it has…

- The GMC is flatter, leaner and less centralized.  As a result it requires much less money for overhead and thus asks far less percentage wise from congregations than the UMC did.

- Local congregations have much more say in the selection of their pastors and pastors do not automatically get shuffled around every few years.  Pastors and congregations stay together indefinitely as long as both are happy and the church is doing well.

- Enforcement mechanisms for churches, pastors and bishops who violate the doctrines of the church are stronger with clearly defined stipulations and consequences.

- Bishops do not get lifetime appointments.  They are term limited (I believe the term is to be 10 years) and then they go back into the normal pastorate.  There are also more accountability structures in place for the bishops themselves rather than each being able to rule their own personal fiefdom however they want.

- No trust clause.  All property and assets of a local congregation belong to the congregation.  If at any time a church decides it no longer wishes to be part of the GMC, they can leave with their property.  While this was originally put in place by John Wesley to ensure that Methodist resources would be used for orthodox purposes, it has morphed into a tool of extortion to keep congregations who won't play ball under control as most would not be able to start over from scratch.

That's a lot of info I know.  But it's important to know because too often I think these disputes get overly summarized into a couple of hot button topics that can neatly fit into culture war boxes.  But reality is messier, and has been brewing at various levels for decades before it finally boils over as the UMC split issue has in the last couple of years.

Incidentally, the exodus has become so great in certain regions and conferences, you're starting to see bishops throw up roadblocks to congregations taking advantage of this out clause.  One bishop simply declared a moratorium on all departures.  She can do that because there's a process. First a congregation goes into a "discernment process" for a few months to consider whether to leave.  Then  the trustees/deacons of that church procedurally vote to allow the congregation to vote on disaffiliating.  The congregation's members vote and at least 67% have to vote in favor of leaving for it to be official.  From there it's just (or has been) a formality that the decision is ratified at the conference level to allow the church to leave upon payment of the agreed apportionments and such.  This bishop has basically just said the conference they oversee is "pausing" all such ratifications until after the 2024 General Conference - conveniently after the expiration date of the out clause.

Other bishops are playing procedural games at the local level with UMC friendly pastors where they prevent the issue coming up for a congregational vote to begin with.  The decision to even enter the discernment process is then held up by the pastor and a friendly board of trustees so they can avoid the vote altogether. Obviously if you believe the votes are in your favor, you don't pull such a move.  You let the vote proceed to ratify what you wanted to do in the first place and celebrate victory.  You only do this to hijack a process you believe you're going to lose...which of course only reinforces the believe by those leaving that bishops have too much power and use it in underhanded ways.