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Classified Documents found in Biden's garage Biden says "my Corvette's in a locked garage, OK?"


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42 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

I have sited many articles about Trump and have always been accused of *defending* Trump. I now know what an article looks like that doesn’t come out and say he was guilty, but implies there is *nothing to see here*.

The article you quoted was one of those.

Here's some direct quotes from the article. 

"For Biden and Trump, the stakes of each possessing unauthorized classified material are indeed high as they face special counsel investigations while preparing for another presidential race"

"Several national security lawyers noted that the special counsels’ investigations are examining whether there’s been criminal mishandling of national security records – a step further than a typical spillage."

"

Still, several senior aides to former presidents and vice presidents told CNN they were surprised by the discovery of classified information in both Biden and Trump’s residences. The aides said their offices had been deliberate in how classified material was handled and what was done if it was discovered, even as the chaos of a presidential transition approached.

One senior aide to a former vice president said it was “puzzling” how the classified materials ended up in Biden’s personal files during the transition, because the classified documents never should have been intermingled to begin with."

 

How is any of this saying there's "nothing to see here" or letting Biden off the hook? 

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15 minutes ago, CoffeeTiger said:

How is any of this saying there's "nothing to see here" or letting Biden off the hook? 

Here is the headline:

Washington’s little secret: ‘Spillage’ of classified information is a common occurrence.

But what is known in intelligence circles as “classified spillage” is, in fact, incredibly common, according to former intelligence officials and attorneys who specialize in cases involving classified information. Most of these cases are simple mistakes that aren’t charged as crimes: a government employee accidentally takes a document home in their briefcase or fails to follow the correct protocol for handling a particular piece of information.

Many of these cases are resolved with a simple conversation with the agency’s security officer, former national security officials said.

In a system of over 4 million security clearance holders, said Bradley Moss, a lawyer who specializes in classified information, such lapses are essentially inevitable. In 2017, a government agency responsible for oversight of the classification system estimated there were nearly 50 million times when information was marked as classified.

“The fact that this is a fairly common occurrence is something that I think the government doesn’t like to advertise, because it to some degree gives the lie to this notion that every piece of classified information is inherently, exquisitely sensitive, and that the stakes for any kind of mishandling are automatically the highest,” said Elizabeth Goitein, a national security law expert at the Brennan Center for Justice.

My comments:  this whole article except the lines you quoted, are a *nothing to see here* BS.

Don’t forget Biden tried to cover it up.  Not a good look.

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55 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

Here is the headline:

 

My comments:  this whole article except the lines you quoted, are a *nothing to see here* BS.

Don’t forget Biden tried to cover it up.  Not a good look.

This whole article (Except for parts that aren't) are "nothing to see here" BS" -IM4AU

Nice analysis.

Reminds me of the Penn State football poster their twitter account posted one time where it said in big letters A PENN STATE STARTER HAS APPEARED IN EVERY SUPERBOWL (then in smaller letters at the bottom) except for  5 since 1967

 

 

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3 minutes ago, CoffeeTiger said:

This whole article (Except for parts that aren't) are "nothing to see here" BS" -IM4AU

Nice analysis.

Reminds me of the Penn State football poster their twitter account posted one time where it said in big letters A PENN STATE STARTER HAS APPEARED IN EVERY SUPERBOWL (then in smaller letters at the bottom) except for  5 since 1967

 

 

We see what we want to see, don’t we.

ETA:  the exceptions were only there to make the article appear to be unbiased, it only worked on you.

Edited by I_M4_AU
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8 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

We see what we want to see, don’t we.

ETA:  the exceptions were only there to make the article appear to be unbiased, it only worked on you.

I'm interpreting the article as it's written. 

You're assigning intent that isn't there based on your biases and how people have replied to past articles you've posted. 

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6 hours ago, I_M4_AU said:

We see what we want to see, don’t we.

ETA:  the exceptions were only there to make the article appear to be unbiased, it only worked on you.

That's ironic, considering how you interpreted an article that simply revealed this sort of thing is rather common as a "nothing to see here piece".   :laugh:

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Unless Executive Order (E.O.) 13526 has been replaced these two federal employees and all federal employees that handle classified documents must undergoe annual training in regards to classifying and securing documents. In my opinion anyone found not handling documents per E.O. 13526 should be removed from having access and handling classified documents.

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Here is the best breakdown of the document scandal:

 

 

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23 hours ago, CoffeeTiger said:

Tex's link had nothing to do with defending Biden,

Thanks for making my point. THE THREAD IS ABOUT BIDEN. If he aint talking about Biden, that is a Whataboutism or close to it. Should not be happening. If he wants do to yet another thread about trump he can start yet another.

it was an analysis about how common classified documents being handled improperly or being improperly stored really is in the federal government. That's something that happens all the time and that criminal charges typically only come into play when you're talking about intent or obstruction. 

Again, this is just one more case of Incompetence trumping the law. The people in DC are so cosmically incompetent that the FBI, the DOJ, et al have stopped even holding them accountable. Why? You would have to arrest them all. 

For Trump or Biden, just having the classified documents in their private homes isn't enough to charge anyone with any crimes,

Again, yes it is. We arent doing it apparently but yes possession is absolutely enough to arrest.  

but any possible charges or punishment will likely come down to who knew the documents were classified,  were classified documents intentionally taken and kept as opposed to carelessly unintentionally bundled in with other documents put into storage, and were efforts of the government to recover the documents obstructed in any way. 

100% on the first half. Half of the possession charges we prosecuted or disciplines were likely non-intentional. That has no bearing on punishment. The standard has been and always been POSSESSION. How they got there is really a secondary issue. 

 

Look, let me see if I can get you to see it this way. Biden has been in govt for 50+ years as of right now. He was elected Senator from DE in 1972. He and his staff have been handling classified material probably since 1975 or so. He has been at this for 50 ****** years. He and his staff knew the standards and had presumably executed them faithfully for 44 or so years. He managed to have all kinds of crisis' and issues and whatever and yet never mishandled one document until 2016. No one is saying otherwise. 

So, saying this is everyday Washington is really demonstrably bull****.

He and his staff did it right for 44 or so years and ****** it up in 2016. He is responsible for the people he hires, the decisions they make, and the things they do. End of statement.

Edited by DKW 86
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19 hours ago, I_M4_AU said:

Here is the headline:

Washington’s little secret: ‘Spillage’ of classified information is a common occurrence.

My comments:  this whole article except the lines you quoted, are a *nothing to see here* BS.

Don’t forget Biden tried to cover it up.  Not a good look.

Once again, "Everything is perfectly, totally fine here...unless our political opponents do it then...ITS THE END OF DEMOCRACY!"

Clutch My Pearls GIFs | Tenor

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23 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

Here is the best breakdown of the document scandal:

 

 

Klavan: It aint funny, if it aint true...

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https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/21/politics/white-house-documents/index.html

 

 

Quote

 

FBI searches Biden’s Wilmington home and finds more classified materials

Updated 7:31 PM EST, Sat January 21, 2023
 

FBI investigators on Friday found additional classified material after conducting a search of President Joe Biden’s Wilmington, Delaware, home, the president’s personal attorney said in a statement.

Bob Bauer said that during the search, which took place over nearly 12 hours Friday, “DOJ took possession of materials it deemed within the scope of its inquiry, including six items consisting of documents with classification markings and surrounding materials, some of which were from the President’s service in the Senate and some of which were from his tenure as Vice President. DOJ also took for further review personally handwritten notes from the vice-presidential years.”

Those six items are in addition to materials previously found at Biden’s Wilmington residence and in his private office.

The FBI did a search of the Biden’s Wilmington property with consent of the president’s attorneys, people briefed on the matter said. The FBI also previously picked up documents found at the residence, which the Biden team disclosed last week.

Bauer said that representatives of Biden’s personal legal team and the White House Counsel’s Office were present during the “thorough search,” during which they had “full access” to the Biden home.

Bauer added that the DOJ “requested that the search not be made public in advance, in accordance with its standard procedures, and we agreed to cooperate.”

The FBI’s search of Biden’s home shows that federal investigators are swiftly moving forward with the probe into classified documents found in Biden’s possession. Special counsel Robert Hur, who was appointed a little more than a week ago, is investigating how the president and his team handled Obama-era classified documents that were recently found in Biden’s private possession. The first documents were found in Biden’s private office on November 2 but not publicly revealed until earlier this month when CBS first reported their existence.

Since then, other classified documents were found at Biden’s home in Wilmington by the president’s attorneys, where Friday’s search took place. Bauer said in a January 11 statement that once Biden’s personal attorneys found the classified documents, they left the document where it was found and suspended their search of the space where it was located.

Neither Biden nor first lady Dr. Jill Biden were present during the search, special counsel to the president Richard Sauber said in a statement.

Biden, Sauber wrote, “has been committed to handling this responsibly because he takes this seriously” and he and his team are “working swiftly to ensure DOJ and the Special Counsel have what they need to conduct a thorough review.”

Biden is spending this weekend at his Rehoboth Beach, Delaware, home. Asked Friday by the Associated Press if the visit had anything to do with documents being found at Biden’s Wilmington home, White House press secretary Karine Jean-Pierre referred reporters to White House counsel’s office and the Department of Justice, but said that Biden “often travels to Delaware on the weekends.”

The FBI’s search of Biden’s home comes five months after the FBI obtained a search warrant to search former President Donald Trump’s Florida residence, Mar-a-Lago. That search, however, occurred because federal investigators had evidence suggesting Trump had not handed over all classified materials in his possession after receiving a subpoena to turn over classified documents to the National Archives.

This is a breaking story and will be updated.

 

 

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So Joe has been stealing documents since he was in the Senate.  That’s at least 14 years of taking Classified Documents seriously.  I think the words are right, but the punctuation is off:  He said “I take Classified Documents.  Seriously.  You think I’m joking.”

Of course, this is after his own lawyers looked and declared they found them all.  I believe the FBI will have to take this a little more seriously.

Anybody want to explain this without mentioning Trump?

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Here's an aspect of the classified documents scandals that we are over looking, IMO.  I am not excusing anyone from possessing them, but apparently, there is a pretty wide range of actual security danger a given document represents.

Again, not trying to make excuses for either Biden or Trump.  Just presenting another factor to add to the equation of "procedure", "knowledge" and "intent" in assessing the practical seriousness of the two cases.

The U.S. has an overclassification problem, says one former special counsel

January 17, 2023

For months, classified documents have been turning up in places where they're not supposed to.

First, there was the discovery of hundreds of classified documents inappropriately stored at Donald Trump's Mar-a-Lago estate in Florida. Then, in recent weeks, the discovery of classified documents at President Biden's home and private office.

While these cases are different in scope and circumstance, both demonstrate mishandling of sensitive information – and they have renewed the scrutiny on how the government classifies its documents.

"There's somewhere in the order of over 50 million documents classified every year. We don't know the exact number because even the government can't keep track of it all," Oona Hathaway, a law professor at Yale University and former special counsel at the Pentagon, told NPR.

Hathaway said the rate at which the government classifies documents has created a problem that ultimately makes it harder for the public to hold the government accountable. She spoke with NPR about some of the reasons behind the issue and one of her suggestions to help.

Interview Highlights

On the ways that overclassification of government documents might be a problem

There are a lot of reasons we should care. Probably the first one is that when a document is classified, it means that people in government who have access to that information really can't talk about it. They can't tell the American people what they know. They can't explain it. American people can't see it. And so it makes it very difficult for the American people to know what their government is doing when that information is classified. It also creates all kinds of problems for reporters, because when reporters get access, the information potentially makes them vulnerable to prosecution for violation of the Espionage Act for disclosing classified information. So it creates a lot of problems for democracy and for transparency of our government.

On how overclassification is not a new issue and why it continues to get worse

It's been a problem for decades. People who have been looking at classification and thinking about classification have recognized for a very long time that the system is out of control. And there have been various efforts to try and rein it in over time. President Clinton tried to limit the use of classification and encourage declassification; it didn't really work.

The data that we have is pretty imperfect, but when we look at the data that we can get, presidency after presidency, we see the numbers going up. And that's despite the fact that many presidents have been kind of trying to reign this in. President Obama also tried to make an effort to encourage declassification and he created a center whose job was supposed to be to encourage declassification, and yet the numbers just kept going up.

Part of that is because the incentives for people in government haven't changed. You know, if you're a person sitting at a desk and you're making a decision about whether to classify something or not, there are generally no ramifications if you've classified something that didn't really need to be classified. But if you make it unclassified and it really should have been classified, you potentially could get in a lot of trouble. So for individual people who are making these decisions, they have all the incentive to classify a document and you multiply that over everyone who's in government, and that's part of the reason we end up where we are.

On whether the criticism of overclassification is fair, in Biden's case currently and previously with former President Trump

Well, it's hard to know exactly what's happening with the Biden administration because we haven't seen those documents. And so it's hard to know if those are documents that really should not have been classified. The fact that they're mixed in with a lot of documents that were not classified is suggestive that they were just part of a set of files where classified information kind of got snuck in and they inadvertently took the boxes with them when they left. But again, we don't have a lot of information.

We do have a little bit more information about the materials that were retained by the Trump administration, by President Trump when he left. We have that famous photo of the sort of files on the floor. And you can see if you look at those pictures, that many of those documents were what's called top secret SCI, which is special compartmented information. That is the most highly classified information the U.S. government has and includes HUMINT, that is human intelligence and special intelligence.

I mean, this is the kind of information that is the most likely to do damage to the U.S. government - again, without seeing the actual documents. Hard to say with certainty, but these are the classifications that are reserved for the material that is the most highly protected set of secrets the U.S. government has.

On Hathaway's suggestion to declassify records after ten years, with very few exceptions, instead of the current policy of 25 years

25 years really isn't working, and so we need to ramp it up, I think, and make it clearer. Also, in my experience, when you look at these documents, the things that are likely to do real damage to national security are about current programs, current events, planned missions and the like. That's the sort of thing where, if you release that information, you really could put individuals at risk, you could put missions at risk, you could put programs at risk. After ten years, that's much less likely. I included within my recommendation as well that anything that has to do with actual individuals – we call them spies colloquially, but somebody involved in human intelligence – that information should be retained as classified for a long period of time. But after ten years, generally, the information is pretty stale. And therefore, there's not as much justification for the U.S. government to continue to keep it secret.

There should be systems in place that encourage individuals to really seriously consider the decision to put a high classification marking. We have technology now that can help with these decisions, we really should be using it. And we should be much more aggressively declassifying information because we're creating, every year, 50 million new documents that are classified, but we're not declassifying anywhere close to that rate. And we could be doing much more when it comes to actually pushing that information back out that no longer needs to be kept classified.

https://www.npr.org/2023/01/17/1149426416/the-u-s-has-an-overclassification-problem-says-one-former-special-counsel

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3 hours ago, I_M4_AU said:

Anybody want to explain this without mentioning Trump?

Won’t happen M4

 

1 hour ago, homersapien said:

Again, not trying to make excuses for either Biden or Trump. 

 

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1 hour ago, SaltyTiger said:

Won’t happen M4

 

 

Uh, I was not responding to M4 Salty.  I was adding a new, independent post to this thread.

(But I did figure some people would assume I was trying to defend Biden with that post. Didn't think you would be one of them though.) 

Edited by homersapien
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6 hours ago, SaltyTiger said:
10 hours ago, I_M4_AU said:

Anybody want to explain this without mentioning Trump?

Won’t happen M4

 

  8 hours ago, homersapien said:

Again, not trying to make excuses for either Biden or Trump. 

I was seeing the same thing. These people and their Whataboutism defense of their guy is just 24-7 kneejerk reaction at this point.

Edited by DKW 86
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10 hours ago, I_M4_AU said:

 

So Joe has been stealing documents since he was in the Senate.  That’s at least 14 years of taking Classified Documents seriously.  I think the words are right, but the punctuation is off:  He said “I take Classified Documents.  Seriously.  You think I’m joking.”

Of course, this is after his own lawyers looked and declared they found them all.  I believe the FBI will have to take this a little more seriously.

Anybody want to explain this without mentioning Trump?

I will just shut me mouth now. I had no idea that there was a 14 ******* year track record of this. 

Incompetent People Incompetent people everywhere - Buzz and Woody (Toy  Story) Meme | Make a Meme

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17 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

I was seeing the same thing. These people and their Whataboutism defense of their guy is just 24-7 kneejerk reaction at this point.

I'm seeing a lot of people interpreting posts the way they want to see them, including you.

For example, pointing out simple facts relevant to one case but not the other, is not necessarily defending anyone.  Like it or not, there are always differences in two separate cases. 

Ironically, you are apparently too biased to recognize such a distinction. Your worldview forces you to put people in one camp or the other.  Either that or you are just too simple-minded to accept such differences. 

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When presidents and four star generals do not take our laws intended to protect national security seriously, we all have a problem.

We need laws that have concrete penalties.  Everything from fines for "honest mistakes", to loss of benefits for egregious but non-threatening offenses, to prison time for nefarious actions.

Making this political ensures it's continuation.  Making a political argument is for disingenuous fools.

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I’m assuming that the FBI is conducting a forensic analysis (fingerprint) on the classified documents. If someone who does not have clearance shows up these cases could get more interesting. 

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Forgetting Biden as President and VP, I wonder how Senator Biden got classified documents out of the Capitol. There is a SKIF where all classifed discussions and documents are discussed by senators (and others) with the neccessary clearances. No documents are supposed to be taken out of the SKIF by a senator like Biden. So if they are now in his house he very much violated the law even as a senator.

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Just now, Son of A Tiger said:

Now it's VP Pence. Apparently a lot of senior people don't understand how to deal with classified info. It may take some harsh punishment to get their attention. Start with Hillary.

Vice President Mike Pence discovered classified documents in Indiana home | Fox News

This should end his campaign before it really gets started.

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