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What Black Americans Need Is to Build Wealth. All the Democrats Offer Are Handouts


AUFAN78
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On 1/19/2023 at 10:01 AM, icanthearyou said:

The problem is not partisan politics.  Another utterly stupid opinion piece.

The problem is,,, programs designed to assist the poor have become windfalls for the wealthy.  Too much privatization. 

The programs are designed to fail, designed to reinforce the patronage system.

You must be a socialist or communist.

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This is much more of an economic issue than, a race issue.  Race is only relevant in the sense that minorities are disproportionately poor.

We need higher wages, lower return on capital.  We need single incomes capable of bringing a family into and, rising within the middle class.  We need parents spending more time parenting.  We need incentives for rising out of poverty, not disincentives.

We need greater equality.  We need to understand the greater returns, although sometimes less tangible returns, from investing in people (ourselves).

 

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On 1/20/2023 at 10:35 AM, homersapien said:

See what I mean? 

He's so good with it, he's willing to double down.  :no:

 

Now Homer, your liberal white guilt is showing again.

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29 minutes ago, arein0 said:

Explain 

Quality education leads to quality jobs thus avoiding the dilemma presented.

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13 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

This is much more of an economic issue than, a race issue.  Race is only relevant in the sense that minorities are disproportionately poor.

We need higher wages, lower return on capital.  We need single incomes capable of bringing a family into and, rising within the middle class.  We need parents spending more time parenting.  We need incentives for rising out of poverty, not disincentives.

We need greater equality.  We need to understand the greater returns, although sometimes less tangible returns, from investing in people (ourselves).

 

Good points Icky. I agreed we need greater equality, but how do you feel about great equity?

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11 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

This is much more of an economic issue than, a race issue.  Race is only relevant in the sense that minorities are disproportionately poor.

We need higher wages, lower return on capital.  We need single incomes capable of bringing a family into and, rising within the middle class.  We need parents spending more time parenting.  We need incentives for rising out of poverty, not disincentives.

We need greater equality.  We need to understand the greater returns, although sometimes less tangible returns, from investing in people (ourselves).

 

Quality education is the answer. Lifts people out of poverty and provides opportunity to compete for high paying jobs. 

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3 minutes ago, PUB78 said:

Good points Icky. I agreed we need greater equality, but how do you feel about great equity?

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2023/01/16/higher_education_has_abandoned_martin_luther_king_jr_148735.html

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15 minutes ago, AUFAN78 said:

Quality education leads to quality jobs thus avoiding the dilemma presented.

I get what you are saying...to me getting better teachers is step 1B. For the inner city schools, the biggest issue is keeping students in school, for examples I showed in previous comments. Only getting better teachers isnt going to solve those problems, in fact it will only widen the gap from middle and lower classes. To me the first step is creating a schooling system that is more flexible to allow kids to work during normal school hours and learn at night. But to say getting better teachers will fix the education in the inner cities is just wrong. It will help the students that are able to graduate, but you are missing the bigger issue (drop out rates). Having better teachers does not fix the issue I presented as the student will still have to drop out to help the family out. 

This could be as simple as you viewing this from a middle to upper class POV and I'm looking at it from the lower class POV. The upper and middle classes dont have the same challenges the lower class has, so it is much easier for them to say we only need better teachers.

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8 minutes ago, arein0 said:

I get what you are saying...to me getting better teachers is step 1B. For the inner city schools, the biggest issue is keeping students in school, for examples I showed in previous comments. Only getting better teachers isnt going to solve those problems, in fact it will only widen the gap from middle and lower classes. To me the first step is creating a schooling system that is more flexible to allow kids to work during normal school hours and learn at night. But to say getting better teachers will fix the education in the inner cities is just wrong. It will help the students that are able to graduate, but you are missing the bigger issue (drop out rates). Having better teachers does not fix the issue I presented as the student will still have to drop out to help the family out. 

This could be as simple as you viewing this from a middle to upper class POV and I'm looking at it from the lower class POV. The upper and middle classes dont have the same challenges the lower class has, so it is much easier for them to say we only need better teachers.

I'm quite sure students drop out for the reason you indicated and positive far more drop out due to grades and feelings of inadequacy. A foundation has to be built in elementary to alleviate the latter.  

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13 minutes ago, AUFAN78 said:

I'm quite sure students drop out for the reason you indicated and positive far more drop out due to grades and feelings of inadequacy. A foundation has to be built in elementary to alleviate the latter.  

Again, I'm not denying that the quality of education needs to be better, but you continue to believe that drop out rates will magically fix itself with better teachers when that is not the case.

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53 minutes ago, arein0 said:

Again, I'm not denying that the quality of education needs to be better, but you continue to believe that drop out rates will magically fix itself with better teachers when that is not the case.

Really nothing magic about it. Take a child from a failing inner city school and place them in a school with better academics and the results speak for themselves.

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2 minutes ago, AUFAN78 said:

Really nothing magic about it. Take a child from a failing inner city school and place them in a school with better academics and the results speak for themselves.

Keep showing your ignorance. There is more to the education problem than just the teachers, but you will never see that from your ivory tower.

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14 minutes ago, arein0 said:

Keep showing your ignorance. There is more to the education problem than just the teachers, but you will never see that from your ivory tower.

Are you a teacher or admin in an inner city school?

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38 minutes ago, AUFAN78 said:

Are you a teacher or admin in an inner city school?

No, I volunteer at a local inner city school

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1 hour ago, arein0 said:

No, I volunteer at a local inner city school

Outstanding! And I worked as a volunteer at inner city schools in Birmingham for many years. I've witnessed educational inadequacies first hand. I've also witnessed students that moved to schools with better academics thrive. One example I've shared previously is a struggling student who moved, thrived and is now a CEO at a Fortune 500 company. 

Quality education is the foundation for success. I like I imagine you have seen exceptions, but I allude to the norm.

We can all look at test scores to form opinions about certain schools, but seeing young adults fail to pass basic employment exams is troubling. I want all schools to succeed and I want accountability. Pipe dream I know but it is a desire. 

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4 hours ago, arein0 said:

Keep showing your ignorance. There is more to the education problem than just the teachers, but you will never see that from your ivory tower.

There is some truth (not a totality, certainly) to that statement.  Students from impoverished areas who are lucky enough to be zoned into schools in more affluent areas do show higher achievement.

However, that is merely a statistic.  Without analysis, it is meaningless.  The ignorant and disingenuous never talk about the analysis.  Poverty itself is the barrier. 

There is no reason for poverty to be growing in this country,,, except for greed.

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19 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

There is some truth (not a totality, certainly) to that statement.  Students from impoverished areas who are lucky enough to be zoned into schools in more affluent areas do show higher achievement.

However, that is merely a statistic.  Without analysis, it is meaningless.  The ignorant and disingenuous never talk about the analysis.  Poverty itself is the barrier. 

There is no reason for poverty to be growing in this country,,, except for greed.

And due to bad personal decisions.  It’s not society’s fault that some people fail and live in poverty. It takes ambition, determination and personal responsibility.

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2 hours ago, AUFAN78 said:

Outstanding! And I worked as a volunteer at inner city schools in Birmingham for many years. I've witnessed educational inadequacies first hand. I've also witnessed students that moved to schools with better academics thrive. One example I've shared previously is a struggling student who moved, thrived and is now a CEO at a Fortune 500 company. 

Quality education is the foundation for success. I like I imagine you have seen exceptions, but I allude to the norm.

We can all look at test scores to form opinions about certain schools, but seeing young adults fail to pass basic employment exams is troubling. I want all schools to succeed and I want accountability. Pipe dream I know but it is a desire. 

That's a great example and I'm excited for their success. I too want all schools to succeed. 

But as I have been saying this whole time I still believe it takes more than just better teachers. Getting better teachers is only a piece in the puzzle.

I would bet in your example, the student went from a high school with a low % going to college, little parent support / low % graduating college, school in poor conditions, high drop out rates etc. To a school where not going to college was unheard of, parents extremely engaged / high % graduating college, better teachers, school is clean, etc. My point is that the difference isnt just the teachers. It's the culture of the school. It's the parents engagement, showing why higher education is important.

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34 minutes ago, arein0 said:

That's a great example and I'm excited for their success. I too want all schools to succeed. 

But as I have been saying this whole time I still believe it takes more than just better teachers. Getting better teachers is only a piece in the puzzle.

I would bet in your example, the student went from a high school with a low % going to college, little parent support / low % graduating college, school in poor conditions, high drop out rates etc. To a school where not going to college was unheard of, parents extremely engaged / high % graduating college, better teachers, school is clean, etc. My point is that the difference isnt just the teachers. It's the culture of the school. It's the parents engagement, showing why higher education is important.

You are obviously hung up on teachers and apparently don't feel they should be held accountable. I totally disagree. I believe teachers, administrators, school boards, teachers unions, etc. should be held accountable. The students themselves as well as parent(s) have accountability too.

 I do agree with parental involvement, but in my example the single mother did not change. Quite certain the teachers were better. 

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1 hour ago, AUFAN78 said:

You are obviously hung up on teachers and apparently don't feel they should be held accountable. I totally disagree. I believe teachers, administrators, school boards, teachers unions, etc. should be held accountable. The students themselves as well as parent(s) have accountability too.

 I do agree with parental involvement, but in my example the single mother did not change. Quite certain the teachers were better. 

No, I agree with you that we need better teachers. What I am arguing is that only getting better teachers will not fix the education issue in the inner city schools. As for your example, the single mother didnt have to be involved because the overall culture of the new school was there to help her out. Any time they had an interaction with a parent at the new school, whether through sports or going to a friends house, was opening their eyes about what their life could be with an education.

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On 1/19/2023 at 1:30 PM, homersapien said:

Well, I think it was Winston Churchill who said "Americans can always be trusted to do the right thing, after trying everything else."

Unfortunately, I fear the essential problem is racism more so than policy.  It's a vicious "Catch 22"

It aint funny if it aint true...😜

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10 hours ago, arein0 said:

No, I agree with you that we need better teachers.

Halleluiah. Finally.

 

10 hours ago, arein0 said:

What I am arguing is that only getting better teachers will not fix the education issue in the inner city schools.

The problem is you are arguing with yourself. I've told you all the people to be held accountable. Your focus is singular and inaccurate.

 

10 hours ago, arein0 said:

As for your example, the single mother didnt have to be involved because the overall culture of the new school was there to help her out. Any time they had an interaction with a parent at the new school, whether through sports or going to a friends house, was opening their eyes about what their life could be with an education.

This too is an inaccurate take on my example.

But here's the bottom line. Lack of an adequate education is the root cause of the problems presented in the OP. The OP indicted democrats and that troubled you so you move the goalposts instead of acknowledging the obvious. 

I'm happy you volunteer while sad you cannot see or acknowledge the problem. 

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1 hour ago, AUFAN78 said:

Halleluiah. Finally.

 

The problem is you are arguing with yourself. I've told you all the people to be held accountable. Your focus is singular and inaccurate.

 

This too is an inaccurate take on my example.

But here's the bottom line. Lack of an adequate education is the root cause of the problems presented in the OP. The OP indicted democrats and that troubled you so you move the goalposts instead of acknowledging the obvious. 

I'm happy you volunteer while sad you cannot see or acknowledge the problem. 

I have repeatedly said that I agree with you that we need better teachers. Not sure how you are just now realizing that?

As for mentioning Democrats, I could care less if the OP did or did not. Imo this isnt a partisan issue. To solve the education problem, it will take more than just better teachers. Obviously that will help, but it wont cure all of the problems

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