Is it time for a serious conversation about Gun Control?

[tgr4lfe 220]

Automatic weapons are illegal prohibitively expensive to the point of being banned for law abiding citizens.

I carry a weapon on a regular basis, legally, and consider myself proficient with many types of guns. I shoot relatively often to maintain proficiency. Shooting is a hobby of mine.

I guess I should go ahead and state for the record I have many firearms. How many? I'm not sure, that's how many. Yes, that includes ARs (plural). I own them all legally, and have more ammo than this punk had, also legally possessed.

My point is, this guy is an aberration, bad stuff happens to good people sometimes. You can't legislate your way around the outliers in the world without making life miserable for the "normal" people.

I wrote a critique of this engagement in a private group on Facebook, I am not a law enforcement officer, but I've been around...

Regarding the Aurora, CO shootings, I have spent a good deal of time thinking about the scenario presented. For those of you that don't know me, I'm a big time 2nd amendment "gun guy" and concealed carry advocate. In my life I would conservatively estimate I have sent 275,000+ rounds down range through a wide array of weapons. There was a period in my life when ammo was pretty much free for training purposes.

I spend a fair amount of time analyzing active shooter scenarios, and generally criticize weapons handling in action movies. In that regard, I absolutely loved the movie Act Of Valor, even though the acting was admittedly horrible. The weapons handling and transitions were fantastic to watch as I have personally observed guys of that caliber in action.

In regard to this shooting, I dwell on it simply because I'd like to think that, if I were presented a similar situation, I could have come up with some options for self defense or potentially eliminating the threat. Given the environment and course/field of fire, I find myself coming up sadly short.

Here is the set-up:

1. Completely full theater. Not conducive for movement by the victims. And, you have to go past the perp to get out.

2. A mix of varying age attendees, most who have probably NOT ever even heard live fire. This creates unpredictability as to how people react.

3. Movie plays throughout the engagement which means it's loud, and the light level is continuously varying. The sound may or may not be a big deal, but the lighting is a huge problem if you are trying to shoot back and maintain a clear sight picture on your weapon.

4. Perp is in the front right corner of the theater, which means the lighting is to his back and in the face of everyone else. Meaning it's way easier for him to see you, than you him.

5. He's wearing full body armor. Wonderful, with typical carry pistol ammunition you can't get a solid central nervous system hit unless it's a head shot, not an easy proposition.

6. He deploys gas of some kind, still not sure what type, so who knows what the affect was. He's the only one with a gas mask, I personally never go to the theater with one, but now you need a head shot through a mask. Low percentage shot to say the least.

7. The theater is a gun free zone. That pretty much guarantees the perp is the only armed person in the room.

8. The engagement is going to happen quickly, without warning, maybe 60-120 seconds total. No one is expecting anything like this.

This is what we used to call shooting fish in a barrel. Regardless of what the local sheriff said on TV, trust me, with a 100 round Beta C-mag drum AR magazine even I could empty one of those in 60 seconds. In close quarters and a room that full, you barely have to aim. Frankly I'm shocked, and glad, only 12 have died.

I have to ignore #7 above before even considering a response. The guy has almost everything working in his favor, and I have nearly none. In my mind, it all depends on seating location to dictate a response.

Here is what is in my/the concealed carry persons favor:

1. He doesn't know who is carrying a weapon or how many. This means he can't explicitly target his opposition or know from where shots may come.

2. #1 gives you a slight element of surprise even though the response will not be a coordinated one.

3. If you are actually close enough to get off a shot without risking others, 5-7 yards is a decent range to operate within. That one cuts both ways because if you are in the back of the theater, getting close enough in a crowded room full of panic is highly unlikely.

4. No matter where you are in the theater, you're probably in an elevated position. Generally considered an advantage, although marginal under these circumstances.

Given all that, it really adds up to a lose-lose situation. If it's only about self-preservation, take cover. If it is a protect my family deal, get them to cover, meaning eat carpet behind a row of seats. If it is an eliminate the threat scenario, you better pray. Actually, you should pray under all those scenarios.

Summary, even the police should be glad this guy quit and gave himself up, because this is one ugly course of fire. Just gives me chills. I like to take a modicum of comfort in knowing I can meet force with force with my concealed carry weapon but with a nut job like this the only answer is cover or to run a zig zag and hope its not your time to punch out.

My thoughts and condolences are with the families and friends of those who were killed or injured in this tragedy.

Sad...

Pretty good assessment, not to mention that there will be NO cover, only concealment behind rows of seats. I'm like you having a carry permit here in TN. I do have prior LE experience and currently work in campus safety, so I think of these scenarios on a regular basis, mainly protecting my family if we are out somewhere in public. I always carry my Glock 27 when I'm out. You are right it is not a good situation at all from a self defense standpoint. Of course, my first goal would be too protect my family get them hid out of the way. About the only option is to belly crawl to get as close as possible. Element of surprise is definite advantage. Terribly difficult position tactically.

As to gun control, making the laws stricter will only make it more difficult and expensive for law abiding citizens to obtain firearms. Criminals will ALWAYS be able to get firearms no matter the laws. The fewer the law abiding citizens have the less we are able to protect ourselves, family, and property. Criminals have to worry that the cost of committing crime is too high, i.e. threat of citizens with legal carry permits defending themselves and others like the old guy in FL did. Whoever pointed that out in a negative manner, you were wrong. That guy had carry permit and successfully defended himself and others against armed robbers.

[stoic-one 1,543]

Yep, should have made the differentiation between cover and concealment, big difference.

That's probably another bullet point for the BG.

[TitanTiger 20,471]

The guy purchased all his firearms and ammo legally and passed all background checks. He had no criminal record, not even a traffic ticket. He kept to himself and had no Facebook, twitter, etc. accounts. There was nothing from his outward appearance to indicate he had flipped out. The only indication anything was wrong was that he had recently had trouble in school passing some tests.

I'm curious to hear what "gun control" laws somebody thinks could have been put in place to prevent such a tragedy from happening.

The only one I can think of is to ban regular people from obtaining or owning an assault weapon like an AR-15 or the high capacity magazines it uses at all. While it won't guarantee no one has one, it would make it much harder to get.

[Tigermike 3,008]

I see no problem with the current gun laws.

You don't see any problem with a guy being able to legally amass this amount of ammo and an automatic assault rifle? Really?

Someone with an involvement with the Occupy Movement, yes.

http://www.examiner.com/article/colorado-shooting-suspect-reported-to-be-former-occupy-member

Occupy Wall Street’s main website, OccupyWallStreet.org, has named Colorado Massacre Shooter James Holmes as an Occupy Black Bloc Member, which has been confirmed by Occupy Black Bloc researcher and expert private investigator Bill Warner.

http://www.westernjournalism.com/colorado-shooter-active-with-occupy-wall-street/

[The Freak 2,526]

I see no problem with the current gun laws.

You don't see any problem with a guy being able to legally amass this amount of ammo and an automatic assault rifle? Really?

Someone with an involvement with the Occupy Movement, yes.

http://www.examiner....r-occupy-member

Occupy Wall Street’s main website, OccupyWallStreet.org, has named Colorado Massacre Shooter James Holmes as an Occupy Black Bloc Member, which has been confirmed by Occupy Black Bloc researcher and expert private investigator Bill Warner.

http://www.westernjo...py-wall-street/

That's just embarrassing.

[channonc 466]

While I agree with the comments above on re-examining whether assault rifiles and other military grade weaponry should be available legally to the general public, I actually think this incident should spark a national discussion on mental illness in this country, and what we can do to combat it. The reality is, this guy was mentally unstable to say the least, and I am not sure that we as a nation make it "ok" for individuals and families of those individuals to reach out and get help when they need it. I also think we should be investing into more reasearch on ways to both prevent and treat a variety of mental illnesses.

[RunInRed 16,360]

Sto - I enjoyed your post ... thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Let me add, I'm not a 'gun guy' (call me naive or accuse me of possessing a false sense of security, but I've never felt any need to carry one) but I certainly have nothing against those who choose to exercise their 2nd amendment rights. That said, I find it extremely difficult when trying to fathom a reason why any civilian needs access to this kind of weapons arsenal. Automatic assault rifles, unlimited rounds of ammo, etc is where I'd like to learn more about what could be done to limit access.

[autigeremt 6,569]

Sto - I enjoyed your post ... thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Let me add, I'm not a 'gun guy' (call me naive or accuse me of possessing a false sense of security, but I've never felt any need to carry one) but I certainly have nothing against those who choose to exercise their 2nd amendment rights. That said, I find it extremely difficult when trying to fathom a reason why any civilian needs access to this kind of weapons arsenal. Automatic assault rifles, unlimited rounds of ammo, etc is where I'd like to learn more about what could be done to limit access.

I would have little problem with limits to access if politicians didn't overstep at every turn and try to go beyond. This guy had more than guns, and he was going to do harm regardless. Channoc has a good point from a mental illness standpoint, but how can we accurately decide who needs treatment, how to go about forcing it on them, without breaching their rights.

At the end of the day, it's a tough world (as it has been for thousands of years) and we must try to attack the problem and not everything else.

[stoic-one 1,543]

Sto - I enjoyed your post ... thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Let me add, I'm not a 'gun guy' (call me naive or accuse me of possessing a false sense of security, but I've never felt any need to carry one) but I certainly have nothing against those who choose to exercise their 2nd amendment rights. That said, I find it extremely difficult when trying to fathom a reason why any civilian needs access to this kind of weapons arsenal. Automatic assault rifles, unlimited rounds of ammo, etc is where I'd like to learn more about what could be done to limit access.

Appreciate the sentiment Rob. What I would call you is just another of many people I know who have no interest in guns, that's all.

Most ALL non-gun enthusiasts would probably label what I have as an arsenal, and to a point it is, in their mind. To me it's just a collection of tools I use for entertainment and sport.

I'm also not a whack job like this freak.

As to your final points re limiting access:

Automatic assault rifles: Not what was used here, this was an off the shelf semi-auto AR15 pattern rifle used by tens of thousands every week for recreational shooting sports and competitions. There are plenty of competition events that you can utilize such a rifle for. And for emphasis - Auto and select fire weapons are so prohibitively expensive, they might as well be illegal. They are that expensive, typically north of $5K vs $1k or less. Not including the hoops you have to go through, and the additional taxes. They are expensive not because they simply cost more to make, it's economics. There are few released through legal channels for acquisition by law abiding people, that drives up the price. The parts required to make a full auto AR may cost $30 more than your basic semi-auto AR, but there aren't many around. To be honest, the stigma and grief associated with full auto weapons deters more buyers than the price does...

Unlimited rounds of ammo: To be frank, I know guys that can burn through 3,000 rounds of ammo(3k of pistol, 3k of rifle) pretty quick. I have personally shot 2k of each in a 3 day training course. The question now becomes, what's considered unlimited, and who determines it?

Edit to add

Regarding high capacity magazines:

Those high capacity drums and magazines are frequently used in competitions simply because they can shave off a few seconds by avoiding a reload of lower capacity magazines during a course of fire. Instead of utilizing 2 or 3 30 round magazines, you can use 1 100. Mind you the reliability of most magazines greater than 30 are generally considered by most I know, less than good, and usually very poor. Heavier max capacity magazines also can have a negative impact in your ability to smoothly handle the weapon, all those rounds weigh something, and that can screw up the balance and point-ability of the weapon.

I added this because it sounds like his rifle may have jammed at some point, and the two leading causes of jams (assuming a properly maintained weapon) are bad ammo, and magazine problems. A skilled operator knows how to clear these in a matter of seconds, but it sounds like this may have been one of the reasons he transitioned away from the AR and switched to the 870 shotgun. Good firepower, but significantly lower rate of fire and way less capacity. If that is the reason he abandoned the AR, which is a great thing in this case, that tells me he only had a cursory knowledge of how to properly operate the weapon. This doesn't surprise me given his background and profile, he's a student (or was), not a SOCOM operator.

At any rate, I'm one of those people the ban people claim doesn't exist, every time this subject comes up.

[RunInRed 16,360]

All fair points. I wonder if certain licenses, permits, etc. would make sense to legally obtain the high capacity magazines, certain rifles or bulk amounts of ammo? I realize this starts to get into grey areas but it just appears to me that if you have honest intentions (re: sport, competition, etc) and reasons for having such an arsenal, one would have no problem taking this extra step. I know this wouldn't solve all problems but it just seems reasonable given the events over the last decade in Aurora, Blacksburg, Columbine, Foot Hood, etc.

[stoic-one 1,543]

From your lips to god's ears, once the government gets involved, they will eliminate some grey areas and create even more.

I don't have a problem with extra steps, but I'm fully aware those steps will cost you and me something, probably money from me and debt for our already underwater government.

For the record, you managed to list four shootings, in essentially gun free zones. I say essentially because even though Fort Hood is a military base, on base in Texas there are probably less people carrying per capita than anywhere else in Texas. Stateside solders are rarely armed unless they are MPs or base security. Also in only 2 of those incidents were rifles used at all, both in CO. Additionally, multiple weapons or bulk ammo was only noted in the 2 CO shootings...

[RunInRed 16,360]

There are real costs to many government-mandated safety measures but that doesn't make them necessarily a bad idea.

My point is, there's some common sense stuff that doesn't seem to be in place and some steps that probably should be taken. I mean, are you really comfortable with any Tom, Dick or Harry being able to Google 'ammo' and with no restrictions beyond his financial limit being able to load up on as much as he wants? What about body armor, tear gas and other combat paraphernalia? You've already discussed assault style rifles and while they are costly, certainly attainable. That OK too? High capacity magazines? Should any measures be taken here?

We currently live in a country where it's harder to get Sudafed than most of the items being discussed. That doesn't seem right to me.

[Tigermike 3,008]

I think Chicago has pretty stringent gun control laws don't they?

Cops: 6 shot in 15-minute span, teen killed

More than a dozen wounded in the city since Monday night

Gunmen opened fire on a group in a Southeast Side park Monday night, killing a 17-year-old boy and wounding three others in a neighborhood that hasn't seen a slaying since last summer, Chicago police said this morning.

The shooting at Merrill Park in the 2100 block of East 96th Place occurred minutes after a separate shooting that wounded two teens in the Marquette Park neighborhood, leaving six people wounded in a 15-minute span, authorities said.

But in all, at least 13 people were wounded in shootings across the city since 8 p.m. Monday, according to early police reports.

The four victims shot in the park were all standing in the park about 10:18 p.m., when police said at least two gunmen, one armed with a handgun and the other with a rifle, emerged from a nearby gangway and opened fire, police said.

A 17-year-old boy who was wounded in the neck was taken to Advocate Christ Medical Center in Oak Lawn, police said. The victim, identified as Alixi Johnson, of the 9600 block of South Merrill Avenue, was declared dead at 11:01 a.m. at Christ Medical Center, according to the Cook County medical examiner's office.

A 34-year-old woman struck in the abdomen, was taken to John H. Stroger Hospital in "stable" condition. Two other victims, a man, 21, and a woman, 30, were each hospitalized with gunshot wounds to the leg.

Johnson's grandmother, Forestine Randall, said the family believes Alixi was the victim of a random shooting. The teen was hanging out with friends in the park, which is near his home, when someone started spraying the area with bullets, forcing everyone to run and scatter, Randall said.

The 56-year-old Randall said Alixi, who had three sisters, was "loved by all" and had no enemies nor any gang affiliations, she said. The teen was set to be a senior in high school and loved to play football and basketball, she said.

"He was a friendly guy," said Randall, who lives in Downstate Jacksonville. "He would go out of his way, above and beyond, to help someone. He wasn't no bad kid."

Randall said she has nothing but special memories of her grandson, whom she affectionately called "Big Baby." She hopes the shooter comes forward, she said, so justice can be served.

"I just wish that these kids would understand what they're doing and stop all this gangbanging and shooting and taking innocent people's lives," Randall said.

The teen's death was the first recorded homicide in the small Jeffery Manor neighborhood in nearly a year.

Police recovered about 50 bullet casings at the scene, but had made no arrests as of this morning.

About 15 minutes prior, a 13-year-old boy and a 18-year-old man were each wounded as they stood in the 7200 block of South Artesian Avenue, police said.

The boy was taken to Christ Medical Center in good condition with a gunshot wound to the left thigh. The boy later told police he simply heard gunshots and felt pain.

An acquaintance drove the older victim to Holy Cross Hospital, where he was being treated for gunshots to the back and his right foot.

About five of the 14 people killed in the Southwest Side community this year were 18 or younger, according to a Tribune homicide analysis.

In other overnight shootings:

• A man, 23, was shot in the buttocks in the 3500 block of West Walnut Street at about 8:10 p.m. He was taken to Mount Sinai Hospital for treatment.
  

• A 17-year-old boy riding a bicycle was wounded in the 6100 block of South Winchester Avenue at about 9:40 p.m. He was taken to Stroger, where he was listed in good condition.
  

• A man, 20, was shot in the right foot as he walked in the 4000 block of West Augusta Boulevard at 11 p.m. A relative took him to West Suburban Medical Center in Oak Park for treatment.
  

• A gunman inside a dark-colored SUV wounded a 26-year-old man and a 19-year-old woman as they stood in the 12000 block of South Wallace Street at about 11:18 p.m., police said. Both were treated at area hospitals for non-serious wounds.
  

• A 27-year-old man was shot in the right ankle as he walked through an alley in the 10100 block of South Parnell Avenue at about 12:35 a.m. Tuesday. He was driven to nearby Roseland Community Hospital for treatment. Police said this shooting was gang-related.
  

• A man, 31, was getting into a vehicle in the 7800 block of South Shore Drive when a gunman in a nearby gangway opened fire. The victim, who was struck in the arm, was taken to Roseland, where he was listed in good condition.
  

wlee@tribune.com

Twitter: @MidNoirCowboy

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-cops-6-shot-in-15minute-span-teen-killed-20120723,0,7572962.story

[eibua12 81]

Kennesaw, GA has an old law on the books that requires a homeowner to Own a gun, lowest crime rate in GA for many years and last time I checked.

I believe the first step would be to make getting assualt weapons very diffcult even require a special permit, however the I expect people like Stoic to find these easy to obtain but it might be a barrier to someone that is crazy like this guy, sadly as stated if guns were not an option this guy would have used bombs.

His neighbor had her hand on the door knob and for some reason walked away so if it was true as stated to get first responders there then God works in mysterious ways.

[autigeremt 6,569]

"There are real costs to many government-mandated safety measures but that doesn't make them necessarily a bad idea"

It depends on who you are. Liberty used to be free but now it costs 24%-36% of your income (federal only). That will grow if the wrong people get elected into power.

Look, if we had honest people in D.C. who did things based on the law of the land, I'd be much more in favor of a new "right to carrry" certification process. Fact is, if you want a gun you can go get one. If you want to do harm to others, the last place you will go (normally) is the local gun shop(mainly because you have already had the legal system strip you of the right to carry in the first place). Why continue to punish civil society for the lack of civility by others?

[Tigermike 3,008]

If there had been 3 or 4 or even one armed men or women who knew how to use their firearms the tragedy in Colorado very well might not have been as bad.

[arnaldoabru 11]

Sto - I enjoyed your post ... thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Let me add, I'm not a 'gun guy' (call me naive or accuse me of possessing a false sense of security, but I've never felt any need to carry one) but I certainly have nothing against those who choose to exercise their 2nd amendment rights. That said, I find it extremely difficult when trying to fathom a reason why any civilian needs access to this kind of weapons arsenal. Automatic assault rifles, unlimited rounds of ammo, etc is where I'd like to learn more about what could be done to limit access.

Appreciate the sentiment Rob. What I would call you is just another of many people I know who have no interest in guns, that's all.

Most ALL non-gun enthusiasts would probably label what I have as an arsenal, and to a point it is, in their mind. To me it's just a collection of tools I use for entertainment and sport.

I'm also not a whack job like this freak.

As to your final points re limiting access:

Automatic assault rifles: Not what was used here, this was an off the shelf semi-auto AR15 pattern rifle used by tens of thousands every week for recreational shooting sports and competitions. There are plenty of competition events that you can utilize such a rifle for. And for emphasis - Auto and select fire weapons are so prohibitively expensive, they might as well be illegal. They are that expensive, typically north of $5K vs $1k or less. Not including the hoops you have to go through, and the additional taxes. They are expensive not because they simply cost more to make, it's economics. There are few released through legal channels for acquisition by law abiding people, that drives up the price. The parts required to make a full auto AR may cost $30 more than your basic semi-auto AR, but there aren't many around. To be honest, the stigma and grief associated with full auto weapons deters more buyers than the price does...

Unlimited rounds of ammo: To be frank, I know guys that can burn through 3,000 rounds of ammo(3k of pistol, 3k of rifle) pretty quick. I have personally shot 2k of each in a 3 day training course. The question now becomes, what's considered unlimited, and who determines it?

Edit to add

Regarding high capacity magazines:

Those high capacity drums and magazines are frequently used in competitions simply because they can shave off a few seconds by avoiding a reload of lower capacity magazines during a course of fire. Instead of utilizing 2 or 3 30 round magazines, you can use 1 100. Mind you the reliability of most magazines greater than 30 are generally considered by most I know, less than good, and usually very poor. Heavier max capacity magazines also can have a negative impact in your ability to smoothly handle the weapon, all those rounds weigh something, and that can screw up the balance and point-ability of the weapon.

I added this because it sounds like his rifle may have jammed at some point, and the two leading causes of jams (assuming a properly maintained weapon) are bad ammo, and magazine problems. A skilled operator knows how to clear these in a matter of seconds, but it sounds like this may have been one of the reasons he transitioned away from the AR and switched to the 870 shotgun. Good firepower, but significantly lower rate of fire and way less capacity. If that is the reason he abandoned the AR, which is a great thing in this case, that tells me he only had a cursory knowledge of how to properly operate the weapon. This doesn't surprise me given his background and profile, he's a student (or was), not a SOCOM operator.

At any rate, I'm one of those people the ban people claim doesn't exist, every time this subject comes up.

and I like to use a tank to rabbit hunt

[autigeremt 6,569]

Sto - I enjoyed your post ... thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Let me add, I'm not a 'gun guy' (call me naive or accuse me of possessing a false sense of security, but I've never felt any need to carry one) but I certainly have nothing against those who choose to exercise their 2nd amendment rights. That said, I find it extremely difficult when trying to fathom a reason why any civilian needs access to this kind of weapons arsenal. Automatic assault rifles, unlimited rounds of ammo, etc is where I'd like to learn more about what could be done to limit access.

Appreciate the sentiment Rob. What I would call you is just another of many people I know who have no interest in guns, that's all.

Most ALL non-gun enthusiasts would probably label what I have as an arsenal, and to a point it is, in their mind. To me it's just a collection of tools I use for entertainment and sport.

I'm also not a whack job like this freak.

As to your final points re limiting access:

Automatic assault rifles: Not what was used here, this was an off the shelf semi-auto AR15 pattern rifle used by tens of thousands every week for recreational shooting sports and competitions. There are plenty of competition events that you can utilize such a rifle for. And for emphasis - Auto and select fire weapons are so prohibitively expensive, they might as well be illegal. They are that expensive, typically north of $5K vs $1k or less. Not including the hoops you have to go through, and the additional taxes. They are expensive not because they simply cost more to make, it's economics. There are few released through legal channels for acquisition by law abiding people, that drives up the price. The parts required to make a full auto AR may cost $30 more than your basic semi-auto AR, but there aren't many around. To be honest, the stigma and grief associated with full auto weapons deters more buyers than the price does...

Unlimited rounds of ammo: To be frank, I know guys that can burn through 3,000 rounds of ammo(3k of pistol, 3k of rifle) pretty quick. I have personally shot 2k of each in a 3 day training course. The question now becomes, what's considered unlimited, and who determines it?

Edit to add

Regarding high capacity magazines:

Those high capacity drums and magazines are frequently used in competitions simply because they can shave off a few seconds by avoiding a reload of lower capacity magazines during a course of fire. Instead of utilizing 2 or 3 30 round magazines, you can use 1 100. Mind you the reliability of most magazines greater than 30 are generally considered by most I know, less than good, and usually very poor. Heavier max capacity magazines also can have a negative impact in your ability to smoothly handle the weapon, all those rounds weigh something, and that can screw up the balance and point-ability of the weapon.

I added this because it sounds like his rifle may have jammed at some point, and the two leading causes of jams (assuming a properly maintained weapon) are bad ammo, and magazine problems. A skilled operator knows how to clear these in a matter of seconds, but it sounds like this may have been one of the reasons he transitioned away from the AR and switched to the 870 shotgun. Good firepower, but significantly lower rate of fire and way less capacity. If that is the reason he abandoned the AR, which is a great thing in this case, that tells me he only had a cursory knowledge of how to properly operate the weapon. This doesn't surprise me given his background and profile, he's a student (or was), not a SOCOM operator.

At any rate, I'm one of those people the ban people claim doesn't exist, every time this subject comes up.

and I like to use a tank to rabbit hunt

If a tank were legal then why the hell not? If you have enough money, you can use a tank to kill a rabbit.

[RunInRed 16,360]

Who's right about the current laws ... Bill or the Congressman?

http://video.foxnews.../1752177459001/

[TitanTiger 20,471]

If a tank were legal then why the hell not? If you have enough money, you can use a tank to kill a rabbit.

Isn't the point though that a tank isn't legal for good reason? It's a military grade weapon not meant for civilian use/protection.

[stoic-one 1,543]

What the hell is a heavy weapon, according to Bill O'Reilly?? For the record, Bill apparently doesn't know the difference between an AR (US) and an AK (Russian design) rifle. He also thinks our boy in CO bought 60,000 rounds of ammo. 60,000, not 6,000, that is 10 x as much as he actually bought, puhleeese. If he had more than 300 with him, I would be surprised, he most certainly didn't shoot that many rounds It would take a truck to haul all that ammo, and trust me, he didn't shoot that many rounds there.... More than 1 is too many, but still. Try carrying more than 5 or 6 hundred for an hour or 2, and we'll talk guys, seriously.

Trust me, an AK isn't a 5.56 AR, regardless of what anyone here thinks.

Most people that hunt use more powerful guns than a 5.56. I mean for Christ sake it's essentially a 22 with a bigger shell casing.

Hunting rifles, are they magazine fed? Some are, depends on where you live and what you have.

Do they have the same capacity? Maybe, maybe not, again, some can, depends on where you live.

Are they semi-auto? Probably, since it appears no one knows that most modern center fire and rimfire weapons are in fact semi-auto weapons.

Military grade weapons, pfft, I've shot many of them, I KNOW a civilian grade AR isn't that. I wouldn't wish the mission of suppressing fire upon anyone using one of those on anyone I had to count on to save my skin.

How about we get rid of these stupid gun-free zones and get the government to admit that in spite of what most think, the government/police aren't here to protect us, they bat clean-up. I know few if any LEO guys that will tell you they can actually do that. They come when called, after the fact, just like in Aurora CO.

You want to ban or limit something that can hurt people, lets start a list.

Guns

Ammo

Edged weapons

ANY chemical that you can use to make an explosive (good luck) or get someone high (really good luck, bath salts, really?)

Inappropriate behavior

Sex

Drugs

Rock and roll

I'm a sport and hobby shooter, but I know a few things about guns, and how our laws actually work. I bet that there aren't but maybe 2 or 3 people, if that, in this thread that even comprehend or have had exposure to half of what I have discussed here... And I don't know squat.

Limit or make all the things illegal that you want to. The people that want to hurt someone will get it, or find a way to, regardless.

I give. Y'all have fun speaking from ignorance among yourselves, most people are such ignorant freaking sheep on this subject.

PS:

Oh yeah, and I just bought 2K rounds of M855 ball ammo, because all you freaks are going to drive up the price of my recreational ammo, thanks a lot.

[TitanTiger 20,471]

sto, I'm just asking questions. I plead my ignorance of the details of how to curtail this sort of thing. I'm just astounded a weapon like this and the ammo that goes with it can be so easily and legally obtained and wonder if there's a way to stop that.

I agree though with gun-free zones. That's just giving a criminal a free pass for target practice.

And as far as the police...they do good work but they can't teleport. As they say, "When seconds count, the police are only minutes away."

[cptau 169]

Banning or severely restricting access to firearms will not stop all of the attacks. The Brits and other western european countries have much stricter laws and it still happens. Limiting the access to very high capacity magazines might work. Although the shooter in Colorado might have shot more people if he had not used the high capacity magazine that jammed.

The shooter could have thrown a large Molotov cocktail into the theater. The fire would have killed some and others may have been crushed in the exit panic. The only way to stop things like that is to post arm guards everywhere. Welcome to south America and the middle east.

If banning thing works so well, then we should just ban alcohol again. Over 10000 people die in drunk driving accidents each year. There is no constitution right to drink alcoholic beverages... However constituionally banning them 90 years ago didn't work either, but it might reduce the highway deaths now.

The big cities have violent inter cities with huge amounts of gun crimes. The reason those big city mayors and politicians want strict national gun control is to prevent their street criminals from getting weapons legally from areas with less strict gun laws were crime is also lower. Those cities have almost lost control and spend huge amounts of money trying to police their streets... Expect those politicians, who all have body guards, to bring up national gun control anytime they can..

[Texan4Auburn 1,626]

I just saw a comment under a Yahoo news article that makes you think: "You know what they call 12 dead and 50 wounded in Chicago? A SLOW WEEKEND."

And that's not much of an exaggeration, since they already have something like 247 shooting deaths so far this year (in a city where guns are illegal, of course). But how often do they make the national news for that? I guess it's just not as dramatic as a guy killing 12 people in a theater.

249 now. I got bored this weekend and went to the south side for some RnR.

Ya, its the gangs that are responsible for all those shootings except for maybe a handful. I would also be willing to be that not a single one of those were done by a legally registered owner. Its actually been on the national news quite a bit from since June. Seen multiple segments on Fox/CNN etc over the past two months. Course they are doing all kinda crap around here now, punching game thats caused a death, stabbings, slitting throats, they would probably just view CCL as a opportunity to obtain more weaponry without having to break into someones home. Just gank a few along with some ipods off Navy Pier.

[tgr4lfe 220]

What the hell is a heavy weapon, according to Bill O'Reilly?? For the record, Bill apparently doesn't know the difference between an AR (US) and an AK (Russian design) rifle. He also thinks our boy in CO bought 60,000 rounds of ammo. 60,000, not 6,000, that is 10 x as much as he actually bought, puhleeese. If he had more than 300 with him, I would be surprised, he most certainly didn't shoot that many rounds It would take a truck to haul all that ammo, and trust me, he didn't shoot that many rounds there.... More than 1 is too many, but still. Try carrying more than 5 or 6 hundred for an hour or 2, and we'll talk guys, seriously.

Trust me, an AK isn't a 5.56 AR, regardless of what anyone here thinks.

Most people that hunt use more powerful guns than a 5.56. I mean for Christ sake it's essentially a 22 with a bigger shell casing.

Hunting rifles, are they magazine fed? Some are, depends on where you live and what you have.

Do they have the same capacity? Maybe, maybe not, again, some can, depends on where you live.

Are they semi-auto? Probably, since it appears no one knows that most modern center fire and rimfire weapons are in fact semi-auto weapons.

Military grade weapons, pfft, I've shot many of them, I KNOW a civilian grade AR isn't that. I wouldn't wish the mission of suppressing fire upon anyone using one of those on anyone I had to count on to save my skin.

How about we get rid of these stupid gun-free zones and get the government to admit that in spite of what most think, the government/police aren't here to protect us, they bat clean-up. I know few if any LEO guys that will tell you they can actually do that. They come when called, after the fact, just like in Aurora CO.

You want to ban or limit something that can hurt people, lets start a list.

Guns

Ammo

Edged weapons

ANY chemical that you can use to make an explosive (good luck) or get someone high (really good luck, bath salts, really?)

Inappropriate behavior

Sex

Drugs

Rock and roll

I'm a sport and hobby shooter, but I know a few things about guns, and how our laws actually work. I bet that there aren't but maybe 2 or 3 people, if that, in this thread that even comprehend or have had exposure to half of what I have discussed here... And I don't know squat.

Limit or make all the things illegal that you want to. The people that want to hurt someone will get it, or find a way to, regardless.

I give. Y'all have fun speaking from ignorance among yourselves, most people are such ignorant freaking sheep on this subject.

PS:

Oh yeah, and I just bought 2K rounds of M855 ball ammo, because all you freaks are going to drive up the price of my recreational ammo, thanks a lot.

Heck, last I checked just regular .40 cal practice ammo was $16-$20 for a box of 50 rounds. That adds up when you can quickly and easily got through 100 rounds. Most definitely no way he came into that theater with 6,000 rounds!! I've primarily shot just pistols, Glocks, mainly. Shotguns a lot also, but not much on the rifles.

Having been prior LEO, it is mostly a reactive job, but the good LEOs are proactive and look for things! It is a very tough job where they are outgunned, outmanned and underpaid. Just about all police departments don't have enough people or need more than what they are allowed per their budgetary guidelines. I am currently the assistant director of security at a university here in Nashville, so I'm still in the mix of LEO with contacts with Metro PD. The gangs here in Nashville have all types of guns.

Like I've said, make the gun laws stricter will NOT help control guns except to limit law abiding citizens obtain guns. Criminals are ALWAYS going to be able to get guns they want/need, ALWAYS!!