Is it time for a serious conversation about Gun Control?

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

18 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

Never mind the fact that we are now blaming schools for letting students walk through the door.

Jesus Christ.

My mistake. I hadn't heard he was a student. But I never claimed to be Jesus. Congrats. Maybe you need to be evaluated

But it might add to your knowledge if you read bigbird's post just above.

 

[AUDub 11,131]

13 minutes ago, bigbird said:

https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/sorry-despite-gun-control-advocates-claims-u-s-isnt-the-worst-country-for-mass-shootings/

Don't bite.

Quote

The CPRC ranking shared by Fox News mostly accurately presents the average annual death rate from mass shootings, as defined by the CPRC, between 2009 and 2015. However, those figures are actually highly misleading, and use a particular type of statistical average to create the false impression that mass shootings are less frequent and less deadly in the United States than in European countries. 

In reality, mass shootings are rare outside the United States — even in the sixteen countries listed by Lott where there was a mass shooting between 2009 and 2015, and even after accounting for population size. But on the rare occasions when mass shootings do take place in European countries, they give rise to a relatively high annual mass shooting death rate in those years because of the comparatively small populations of those countries. 

 

[HVAU 673]

24 minutes ago, bigbird said:

Norway is, with an outlier mass shooting death rate of 1.888 per million (high no doubt because of the rifle assault by political extremist Anders Brevik that claimed 77 lives in 2011). No. 2 is Serbia, at just 0.381, followed by France at 0.347, Macedonia at 0.337, and Albania at 0.206. Slovakia, Finland, Belgium, and Czech Republic all follow. Then comes the U.S., at No. 11, with a death rate of 0.089.

Let's also consider raw numbers, not just deaths per 100k citizens.  I'm using the highest number of deaths in a given year since 2009 except for the US.  I'll use our lowest.

Norway 142(2012)

Serbia 285(2009)

France 1861 (2009)

Macedonia 38 (2010)

Albania 83 (2008, source has incomplete data since 2009)

Slovakia 106 (2009)

Finland 206 (2009)

Belgium 203 (2011)

Czech Republic 224 (2011)

United States 31347 (2009)

The contrast is stark and, in my opinion, shows a significant bias in the article's reporting of the numbers.

The trend in the US is also disappointing.  2009 was our lowest and it's risen every year up to 2016 (when my source stops).

 

Data: http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-states

I agree with the sentiment that guns aren't the only thing to blame, but they sure do facilitate gun violence.

[bigbird 60,368]

2 minutes ago, HVAU said:

 

The trend in the US is also disappointing.  2009 was our lowest and it's risen every year up to 2016 (when my source stops).

 

Data: http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-states

Why is that? The guns haven't changed much. I'm not necessarily disagreeing, especially with the disparity in numbers, but there is obviously something else that seems to be uniquely American with this problem.

[bigbird 60,368]

https://www.infoplease.com/us/crime/timeline-worldwide-school-and-mass-shootings

Too long to post, but a good/sad list

[McLoofus 35,182]

6 minutes ago, bigbird said:

Why is that? The guns haven't changed much. I'm not necessarily disagreeing, especially with the disparity in numbers, but there is obviously something else that seems to be uniquely American with this problem.

That is fair. Access to guns isn't the only issue. And you'd probably be hard pressed to find many proponents of gun control who would say otherwise. 

[HVAU 673]

23 minutes ago, bigbird said:

Why is that? The guns haven't changed much. I'm not necessarily disagreeing, especially with the disparity in numbers, but there is obviously something else that seems to be uniquely American with this problem.

Haven't gun sales increased during that same time frame indicating a higher prevalence of guns in society.

I'm not for an all out gun ban and I don't know what the solution is, but we've got recognize that a higher prevalence of guns in a society increases the incidences of gun violence.

[bigbird 60,368]

3 minutes ago, HVAU said:

Haven't gun sales increased during that same time frame indicating a higher prevalence of guns in society.

I'm not for an all out gun ban and I don't know what the solution is, but we've got recognize that a higher prevalence of guns in a society increases the incidences of gun violence.

I'm not sure if they have or not. I do know that, for me, growing up(80's & 90's) Guns seemed to be much more prevalent and access didn't seem to be very difficult. 

[HVAU 673]

I just saw the WaPo article related to today's gun violence:

"The school shooting near Houston on Friday bolstered a stunning statistic: More people have been killed at schools this year than have been killed while serving in the military."

I recognize that some may criticize the article for political avocacy through emotion, but that juxtaposition is a seriously difficult pill to swallow.

[HVAU 673]

2 minutes ago, bigbird said:

I'm not sure if they have or not. I do know that, for me, growing up(80's & 90's) Guns seemed to be much more prevalent and access didn't seem to be very difficult. 

I grew up in the same time, and I agree that guns appeared to be more prevalent and accessible.  But, I don't run with the same social groups that I did then.  Many of my friends either don't own a gun or only have one.  When I go visit my family in West Alabama or Shelby County the prevalence significantly increases to levels I recall from childhood.

[alexava 6,973]

As much as we do need to talk about gun control, this may be one case that more control would not have helped. If early reports are accurate he used a shotgun and a .38 revolver. If they were taken from his dad, legally owned , no laws I would support would have prevented this. It is still early but it’s likely not a case of him toting a machine gun with a dozen or so magazines. 

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

17 minutes ago, alexava said:

As much as we do need to talk about gun control, this may be one case that more control would not have helped. If early reports are accurate he used a shotgun and a .38 revolver. If they were taken from his dad, legally owned , no laws I would support would have prevented this. It is still early but it’s likely not a case of him toting a machine gun with a dozen or so magazines. 

I actually agree with you here.  This reeks more of a Columbine style shooting than that of Parkland or other recent shootings.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

30 minutes ago, alexava said:

As much as we do need to talk about gun control, this may be one case that more control would not have helped. If early reports are accurate he used a shotgun and a .38 revolver. If they were taken from his dad, legally owned , no laws I would support would have prevented this. It is still early but it’s likely not a case of him toting a machine gun with a dozen or so magazines. 

I wonder how he walked into school and then to a classroom hiding a shotgun, not to mention explosives without being detected?

[Texan4Auburn 1,626]

1 hour ago, Proud Tiger said:

I don't mean to belittle this tragedy in any way but this school seeming learned nothing from previous incidents. How did this guy just walk in and go to an art class and start shooting? Answer......there were no guards around to deter him. I don't have a link but I saw some stats recently about schools that have some kind of guards or police presence and the rate of incidents was way below those who don't. This included other countries as well.

Update your knowledge of the situation.

There was an officer there. He is one of the individuals that is in critical condition at a hospital.

https://www.click2houston.com/news/john-barnes-santa-fe-isd-officer-among-those-injured-in-school-shooting

The kid had this well thought out. He walked in like he has everyday since the fall with things concealed in a trench coat that he has worn everyday since the fall. So even his dress was normal despite the temperatures. He also had pipe bombs and other explosives scattered around the school.

Very sad comment by one student, they now just expect this:

Quote

"It's been happening everywhere," Paige said. "I always felt like eventually it would happen here. I wasn't surprised, I was just scared."

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/05/18/612286146/shooting-reported-at-high-school-near-houston

Then even after police have asked people to stay away, remain in their homes, you got this guy rolling around armed with gun and flag repeating Trump slogans:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/texas-school-shooting-latest-santa-fe-high-maga-man-gun-flag-make-america-great-again-a8358276.html

[alexava 6,973]

10 minutes ago, Proud Tiger said:

I wonder how he walked into school and then to a classroom hiding a shotgun, not to mention explosives without being detected?

Very possible. I could walk into my kids school in any one of at least a dozen doors. Some of these doors I only park or stop the car maybe 30' from the door. There are at least two SROs but they may be elsewhere. Then if it's a shorter barreled gun or its broken down in a book bag till you put it together in the restroom.....would not be too hard. This kid might had been somewhat skilled with guns to shoot 20 people with this artillery. 

[bigbird 60,368]

21 minutes ago, Proud Tiger said:

I wonder how he walked into school and then to a classroom hiding a shotgun, not to mention explosives without being detected?

Because most schools don't have metal detectors or bomb dogs

[homersapien 11,353]

5 hours ago, bigbird said:

Never seen a trigger pull itself...

That goes for RPG's too.  Doesn't mean we should legally mass market them.

[homersapien 11,353]

3 hours ago, bigbird said:

https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/sorry-despite-gun-control-advocates-claims-u-s-isnt-the-worst-country-for-mass-shootings/

In

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• EDITORIALS

Sorry, Despite Gun-Control Advocates' Claims, U.S. Isn't The Worst Country For Mass Shootings....

Mass shootings make up only about 2% of gun-related fatalities in the U.S.

The problem isn't mass shootings per se'- although they do prompt the discussion.

See the statistics I provided earlier.  We have a unique problem.

[homersapien 11,353]

3 hours ago, bigbird said:

Why is that? The guns haven't changed much. I'm not necessarily disagreeing, especially with the disparity in numbers, but there is obviously something else that seems to be uniquely American with this problem.

Well, guns haven't changed a lot technically,  but the type and number of guns in public circulation have changed a hell of a lot in my lifetime.

[bigbird 60,368]

22 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Well, guns haven't changed a lot technically,  but the type and number of guns in public circulation have changed a hell of a lot in my lifetime.

Such as shotguns and revolvers?

[homersapien 11,353]

24 minutes ago, bigbird said:

Such as shotguns and revolvers?

Sorry, I don't get your meaning.  

 

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

In related news, our Lieutenant Governor is a complete imbecile.

http://www.businessinsider.com/texas-lieutenant-governor-suggests-reducing-school-entrances-to-prevent-shootings-2018-5

[bigbird 60,368]

42 minutes ago, Brad_ATX said:

In related news, our Lieutenant Governor is a complete imbecile.

http://www.businessinsider.com/texas-lieutenant-governor-suggests-reducing-school-entrances-to-prevent-shootings-2018-5

Having an ECP would make it easier to control who comes in and out of a school. It would also allow the SROs to not be over extended. JMO

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

Did I hear correctly he walked in wearing a trenchcoat? If so that sure should have got some attention this time of year.

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

37 minutes ago, bigbird said:

Having an ECP would make it easier to control who comes in and out of a school. It would also allow the SROs to not be over extended. JMO

My understanding of his statement was that Lt. Gov. basically advocated that there are too many doors at a school and there should be a single entry/exit.  That poses so many issues, like limiting escape routes for fires or an active shooter situation.  It's just a dumb thing to say at all in my view, but particularly in the moment.