Is it time for a serious conversation about Gun Control?

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

18 minutes ago, Proud Tiger said:

Did I hear correctly he walked in wearing a trenchcoat? If so that sure should have got some attention this time of year.

He had apparently been wearing one all year, everyday.  If that's the case, and nothing happened to this point, you would havs zero reason to suspect it.

[alexava 6,973]

22 minutes ago, Brad_ATX said:

He had apparently been wearing one all year, everyday.  If that's the case, and nothing happened to this point, you would havs zero reason to suspect it.

Isn't that a copy of Columbine? Weren't they the " Trench Coat Mafia"?

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

2 minutes ago, alexava said:

Isn't that a copy of Columbine? Weren't they the " Trench Coat Mafia"?

Yes they were.  It's part of why I said earlier that I think this is more of a Columbine situation than a Parkland. 

[japantiger 4,051]

5 hours ago, homersapien said:

Well, guns haven't changed a lot technically,  but the type and number of guns in public circulation have changed a hell of a lot in my lifetime.

Yes Homey, I know it was hard to shoot over 3 rounds per minute with that Flintlock you had as a kid ...

Seems ownership is actually down over the last 40 years.

https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2012/03/chart-day-gun-ownership-30-year-decline/

 

[McLoofus 35,182]

Lol stats.

50% of 212 million = 106 mullion.

32% of 325 million = 104 million.

The percentage has dropped but the population has grown since 1973. That's also the percentage of households and not the number of guns. To piggyback on a popular 2A refrain, the bad guys already have the guns and I'm guessing that not all of them reported as a household for that study.

I wasn't around in 1973, but for those who were, did people tend to have big collections of guns like many of you here and many people I know do? When I was a kid in the 80s, I knew a lot of dudes who drove around with a hunting rifle but that was about it.

(Hint: it says right there in the article that gun sales exploded between 2005 and 2010. Maybe because a bunch of 2A crazies- like my dad and brother- thought Obummer was a'comin' fer their guns??)

[Mikey 16,565]

Quoting the subject:

Is it time for a serious conversation about Gun Control?

 

I don't think it is, but it's past time for a serious discussion about identifying troubled students and other sick individuals. It's time to discuss greatly increased security measures at high schools, where most of these sad school shootings happen. These things will cost money, but not nearly as much money as the ineffectual effort at taking guns away from armed citizens would cost.

Talk is cheap. Our political leaders need to come up with some serious money to address this problem.

 

[AU64 10,122]

Just an aside...but the first article I read on MSN site about this tragedy said he used an AR-15 type weapon.....eagerness to be first and not concerned about accuracy..... and going with the conventional wisdom about assault type weapons.      I didn't look later to see if the piece had been pulled or corrected but someone should lose their job. 

AND about the shooter....another situation where the culprit was a familiar face to a lot of people....a student, known to other students and teachers too ....and thus as he entered the school, he  was not likely to be challenged. ....that's a significant problem in my view in preventing these incidents. 

[AUDub 11,136]

9 hours ago, japantiger said:

Yes Homey, I know it was hard to shoot over 3 rounds per minute with that Flintlock you had as a kid ...

Seems ownership is actually down over the last 40 years.

https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2012/03/chart-day-gun-ownership-30-year-decline/

 

A. Old stats. Last I saw, gun ownership per household was back up above 40%. Doesn’t address the effects the Obama presidency, Sandy Hook, the Pulse shooting and other events had on gun sales. 

B. Per household isn’t too reliable a metric for considering the increase in amount of guns. People stockpile. 3% of gun owners have half of the guns. 

[japantiger 4,051]

2 minutes ago, AUDub said:

A. Old stats. Last I saw, gun ownership per household was back up above 40%. Doesn’t address the effects the Obama presidency, Sandy Hook, the Pulse shooting and other events had on gun sales. 

B. Per household isn’t too reliable a metric for considering the increase in amount of guns. People stockpile. 3% of gun owners have half of the guns. 

Please post the reference .... I had expected the percent of ownership to be up, frankly.  But it is not...unless you show me the data.  And McLoofus, sorry, but your stats you reference shows the numbers down both in absolute and %'age terms are down.  Not sure you made the point you thought you were making...

[AUDub 11,136]

6 minutes ago, japantiger said:

Please post the reference .... I had expected the percent of ownership to be up, frankly.  But it is not...unless you show me the data.  

Here you go. 

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2017/06/22/the-demographics-of-gun-ownership/

 

[japantiger 4,051]

12 minutes ago, AUDub said:

Here you go. 

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2017/06/22/the-demographics-of-gun-ownership/

 

No trend...doesn't say whether the number is up or down.  Pew usually has good trended data and that makes them very valuable...usually.  Also, as the footnote calls out; you can't add across.  So the households don't add to 40%...

[AU64 10,122]

Interesting stats but guess I would be suspicious of something based on what people say they own and JMO but lots of people are likely not to admit gun ownership in the present political climate so thinking it would be hard to know if ownership is up...... perhaps if their guns are not entirely legal...unregistered, or whatever some folks won't admit ownership.... And unless pawn shops are included somehow, a large number of guns are not accounted for. 

I have one little 22 cal that I bought as a kid and don't have strong feelings on the gun issue other than 2nd amendment...but I'm thinking for better or worse (probably worse) the numbers undercount the actual number of guns in the hands of someone. 

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

Don’t think gun control is the solution. Be competent. Is there room to temper gun liberties that preceded and persist under the current federal government? Sure.

But until we start treating public schools like airports, this crap will continue. 

[alexava 6,973]

1 hour ago, AU64 said:

Just an aside...but the first article I read on MSN site about this tragedy said he used an AR-15 type weapon.....eagerness to be first and not concerned about accuracy..... and going with the conventional wisdom about assault type weapons.      I didn't look later to see if the piece had been pulled or corrected but someone should lose their job. 

AND about the shooter....another situation where the culprit was a familiar face to a lot of people....a student, known to other students and teachers too ....and thus as he entered the school, he  was not likely to be challenged. ....that's a significant problem in my view in preventing these incidents. 

I waited patiently and expected to learn it was an assault rifle. When I heard it was a shotgun and six shooter I was surprised. Actually impressed a kid took down that many without preloaded magazines. I’m glad he wasn’t more heavily armed. 

[AU64 10,122]

8 minutes ago, alexava said:

I waited patiently and expected to learn it was an assault rifle. When I heard it was a shotgun and six shooter I was surprised. Actually impressed a kid took down that many without preloaded magazines. I’m glad he wasn’t more heavily armed. 

Yep....like the person who wrote the MSN piece (who also said semi-auto pistol) my assumption went to the AR-15....it was many hours later when I read the actual details.     One real issue as I noted, is that most of these school shooters were known in the schools and were able to just walk in like any other student.  That's tough to prevent or defend. 

[homersapien 11,357]

11 hours ago, japantiger said:

Yes Homey, I know it was hard to shoot over 3 rounds per minute with that Flintlock you had as a kid ...

Seems ownership is actually down over the last 40 years.

https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2012/03/chart-day-gun-ownership-30-year-decline/

 

Very funny.   Percussion caps had pretty much driven the flintlocks off the market when I was young. 

Actually, When I was a teenager we mostly had .22's, and maybe a shotgun.  A few of us had  surplus bolt action rifles, like a Mosin Nagent or Mauser.  (One of our favorite pastimes  was to load up a pickup truck and drive to the dump to shoot rats at night with spotlights.  That dump is  now under Barber Motorsports.)

Pistols weren't really part of the equation. Yes, there were semi-auto pistols on the market, but nothing like today where they are mass marketed.  Even the cops were mostly armed with revolvers.  Of course assault style rifles were pretty much limited to Viet Nam.

It is completely different today.

 

[homersapien 11,357]

4 hours ago, Mikey said:

Quoting the subject:

Is it time for a serious conversation about Gun Control?

 

I don't think it is, but it's past time for a serious discussion about identifying troubled students and other sick individuals. It's time to discuss greatly increased security measures at high schools, where most of these sad school shootings happen. These things will cost money, but not nearly as much money as the ineffectual effort at taking guns away from armed citizens would cost.

Talk is cheap. Our political leaders need to come up with some serious money to address this problem.

 

Curious that we seem to be uniquely plagued by troubled students and sick individuals. 

[homersapien 11,357]

1 hour ago, AU64 said:

Interesting stats but guess I would be suspicious of something based on what people say they own and JMO but lots of people are likely not to admit gun ownership in the present political climate so thinking it would be hard to know if ownership is up...... perhaps if their guns are not entirely legal...unregistered, or whatever some folks won't admit ownership.... And unless pawn shops are included somehow, a large number of guns are not accounted for. 

I have one little 22 cal that I bought as a kid and don't have strong feelings on the gun issue other than 2nd amendment...but I'm thinking for better or worse (probably worse) the numbers undercount the actual number of guns in the hands of someone. 

I'd like to see the stats on how many guns are sold each year.

[AU64 10,122]

2 minutes ago, homersapien said:

I'd like to see the stats on how many guns are sold each year.

new or transferred ownership?   

[homersapien 11,357]

4 minutes ago, AU64 said:

new or transferred ownership?   

There are no requirements or records on transfers that I am aware of.  

But the issue is how many guns are existent in our society.   

I submit we are awash with guns because of purely commercial interests.  The NRA is a lobbyist for the gun industry.  The second amendment - and fear - are merely the tools they use to justify sales.

[AU64 10,122]

1 minute ago, homersapien said:

There are no requirements or records on transfers that I am aware of.  

But the issue is how many guns are existent in our society.   

I submit we are awash with guns because of purely commercial interests.  The NRA is a lobbyist for the gun industry.  The second amendment - and fear - are merely the tools they use to justify sales.

might be more significant to know what kind of guns....being awash in shotguns and hunting weapons or common revolvers. 

Never seen an estimate on the number of so called "assault" weapons.   

NRA is a lobbyist for gun owners.......

[homersapien 11,357]

3 minutes ago, AU64 said:

might be more significant to know what kind of guns....being awash in shotguns and hunting weapons or common revolvers. 

Never seen an estimate on the number of so called "assault" weapons.   

NRA is a lobbyist for gun owners.......

We are awash in semi-auto pistols and assault style rifles with detachable magazines.

I took a CWP course that had about 20 people.  The only revolvers were mine and an even older guy that had been one of the original Navy Frogmen. (Both of us had S&W model 36s)

Everyone else in the course had some type of auto-loading pistol.  And for the most part, they were hopelessly inept with them.  They didn't shoot groupings, they occasionally hit the target.  And this was at ridiculously close range.

NRA is a lobbyist for the gun industry.  They have routinely voted against the interests of gun owners and for the interests of the gun industry.  If you don't believe me, then read this book: Ricochet: Confessions of a Gun Lobbyist by Richard Feldman

  

[AU64 10,122]

3 minutes ago, homersapien said:

NRA is a lobbyist for the gun industry.  They have routinely voted against the interests of gun owners and for the interests of the gun industry.  If you don't believe me, then read this book: Ricochet: Confessions of a Gun Lobbyist by Richard Feldman

  

I don't follow NRA politics but figure they have to walk some kind of line between both sides...or they would not have as many members as they do. But like most lobbying organizations, it's sometimes hard to know who benefits (other than the politicians) from their efforts.

[alexava 6,973]

49 minutes ago, homersapien said:

We are awash in semi-auto pistols and assault style rifles with detachable magazines.

I took a CWP course that had about 20 people.  The only revolvers were mine and an even older guy that had been one of the original Navy Frogmen. (Both of us had S&W model 36s)

Everyone else in the course had some type of auto-loading pistol.  And for the most part, they were hopelessly inept with them.  They didn't shoot groupings, they occasionally hit the target.  And this was at ridiculously close range.

NRA is a lobbyist for the gun industry.  They have routinely voted against the interests of gun owners and for the interests of the gun industry.  If you don't believe me, then read this book: Ricochet: Confessions of a Gun Lobbyist by Richard Feldman

  

I read an article a few months ago. Don’t have time to find it now. It explained that it illegal or not allowed to officially track production of guns but it had estimates on assault weapon production. To make a long story short, between Sandy Hook in 2011 and last year the quantity of assault rifles in the us doubled. 

[aubearcat 2,136]

1 hour ago, homersapien said:

Even the cops were mostly armed with revolvers.  

 

It’s a thread derailment but the L.A. bank robbery (mid 80’s) is one of the main reasons law enforcement went to magazine fed pistols. It’s also when the development of SWAT teams began on a large scale.