New Lawsuit may challenge ObamaCare as a Tax

[autigeremt 7,260]

#!

[AUDub 12,014]

Lol. I know who Andy Schlafly is. He's the founder of Conservapedia (look it up if you want a good laugh) and a walking example of willful stupidity. Hard for me to take this seriously knowing he's involved.

[autigeremt 7,260]

I can only hope something comes of it. ObamCare is going to really send my family in a tailspin if it isn't changed or axed all together.

[cptau 169]

Well, 17 minutes is more than my attention span. I do remember there be a a core constitutional problem with the tax bill part of the act not starting in the House of Representatives. However until the tax is actually collected it cannot be challenged.

The entire program is flawed and will crash which is probably the goal so their next step is Canadian style single payer government healthcare insurance.

[homersapien 12,329]

Well, I suppose you can always push for status quo ante.

Good luck with that.

[autigeremt 7,260]

Well, I suppose you can always push for status quo ante.

Good luck with that.

Better than this screwed up law that will do nothing but make things worse for most Americans.

[homersapien 12,329]

Well, I suppose you can always push for status quo ante.

Good luck with that.

Better than this screwed up law that will do nothing but make things worse for most Americans.

Do you think the situation we had was sustainable?

Do you know how much you were paying for healthcare insurance? (Keep in mind your "employer's contribution" was essentially coming out of your pocket.)

And were costs stable or continuously rising?

[AUcivE09 582]

Well, I suppose you can always push for status quo ante.

Good luck with that.

Better than this screwed up law that will do nothing but make things worse for most Americans.

Do you think the situation we had was sustainable?

Do you know how much you were paying for healthcare insurance? (Keep in mind your "employer's contribution" was essentially coming out of your pocket.)

And were costs stable or continuously rising?

Nothing went down for me. My employer is paying more and I am paying more begining January 2014. I was thrilled with my insurance as it was. Now my deductibles are going up - copays are going up - and I will be paying ~$90 more per month on my premium while the state will be paying ~$100 more per person. I fail to see how this helps me at all! For Christ sake I may loose my dental all together.

If the previous was broken - this is far from the answer. The state of Alabama has been FLOODED with 19-26 yr olds not in school, not working, or not working a job that provides ins.

Where is the benefit and what was fixed?

[4AUsince62 10]

Well, I suppose you can always push for status quo ante.

Good luck with that.

Better than this screwed up law that will do nothing but make things worse for most Americans.

Do you think the situation we had was sustainable?

Do you know how much you were paying for healthcare insurance? (Keep in mind your "employer's contribution" was essentially coming out of your pocket.)

And were costs stable or continuously rising?

No.

Yes.

Continuously rising.

Now, what part of this bill, now law, will fix any of that?

[homersapien 12,329]

Well, I suppose you can always push for status quo ante.

Good luck with that.

Better than this screwed up law that will do nothing but make things worse for most Americans.

Do you think the situation we had was sustainable?

Do you know how much you were paying for healthcare insurance? (Keep in mind your "employer's contribution" was essentially coming out of your pocket.)

And were costs stable or continuously rising?

Nothing went down for me. My employer is paying more and I am paying more begining January 2014. I was thrilled with my insurance as it was. Now my deductibles are going up - copays are going up - and I will be paying ~$90 more per month on my premium while the state will be paying ~$100 more per person. I fail to see how this helps me at all! For Christ sake I may loose my dental all together.

If the previous was broken - this is far from the answer. The state of Alabama has been FLOODED with 19-26 yr olds not in school, not working, or not working a job that provides ins.

Where is the benefit and what was fixed?

OK, so I'll ask you the same question as EMT: Do you know what the total cost of your insurance premium was? (both your and your employer's "contribution")

[autigeremt 7,260]

Well, I suppose you can always push for status quo ante.

Good luck with that.

Better than this screwed up law that will do nothing but make things worse for most Americans.

Do you think the situation we had was sustainable?

Do you know how much you were paying for healthcare insurance? (Keep in mind your "employer's contribution" was essentially coming out of your pocket.)

And were costs stable or continuously rising?

Nothing went down for me. My employer is paying more and I am paying more begining January 2014. I was thrilled with my insurance as it was. Now my deductibles are going up - copays are going up - and I will be paying ~$90 more per month on my premium while the state will be paying ~$100 more per person. I fail to see how this helps me at all! For Christ sake I may loose my dental all together.

If the previous was broken - this is far from the answer. The state of Alabama has been FLOODED with 19-26 yr olds not in school, not working, or not working a job that provides ins.

Where is the benefit and what was fixed?

OK, so I'll ask you the same question as EMT: Do you know what the total cost of your insurance premium was? (both your and your employer's "contribution")

My premium has only went up 7% in seven years.

[AUcivE09 582]

Well, I suppose you can always push for status quo ante.

Good luck with that.

Better than this screwed up law that will do nothing but make things worse for most Americans.

Do you think the situation we had was sustainable?

Do you know how much you were paying for healthcare insurance? (Keep in mind your "employer's contribution" was essentially coming out of your pocket.)

And were costs stable or continuously rising?

Nothing went down for me. My employer is paying more and I am paying more begining January 2014. I was thrilled with my insurance as it was. Now my deductibles are going up - copays are going up - and I will be paying ~$90 more per month on my premium while the state will be paying ~$100 more per person. I fail to see how this helps me at all! For Christ sake I may loose my dental all together.

If the previous was broken - this is far from the answer. The state of Alabama has been FLOODED with 19-26 yr olds not in school, not working, or not working a job that provides ins.

Where is the benefit and what was fixed?

OK, so I'll ask you the same question as EMT: Do you know what the total cost of your insurance premium was? (both your and your employer's "contribution")

Yes. This year the total premium was $780 - $765 covered by the state and $15 was my part each month. That number jumps to $825 (presumably - $800 is the number they want) covered by my employer and my part will be ~$115 per month begining January 2014 (Total Premium of ~$940).

If you smoke - add $45/month

If you do not get a wellness exam - add $25/month

Just in premiums that is $160/month increase. Our deductibles are currently set to double and co-pay could go up as much as $20. None of this (deductibles and co-pay) has been finalized and will not be until August.

[AUcivE09 582]

Ok - I provided real numbers and I have waited a few days. Homer- its on you bud. What are the benefits and what will fixed? I am curious to see what my numbers have to do with my original question.

[Aufan59 168]

Do you think the situation we had was sustainable?

Do you know how much you were paying for healthcare insurance? (Keep in mind your "employer's contribution" was essentially coming out of your pocket.)

And were costs stable or continuously rising?

As a conservative generally against Obamacare, even I realize that single payer is a better solution than Obamacare.

Obamacare is a mess and the sooner it is replaced, the better.... even if it is replaced with single payer...

[ToomersRevenge 284]

Single payer is the only way this mess makes any sense.

Right now it's just a cluster of a shell game trying to make everyone feel good without anyone knowing what's going on.

[homersapien 12,329]

Ok - I provided real numbers and I have waited a few days. Homer- its on you bud. What are the benefits and what will fixed? I am curious to see what my numbers have to do with my original question.

First, I was asking the question to see if you even knew what you are paying today. I suspect a lot of people don't, so congratulations for that.

Secondly, I never suggested that the ACA was going to save anyone money, particularly those who are insured under an employer-supplied group benefits plan.

So, if I understand correctly:

- your premium's total cost was $780/mo.

- starting 2014 your premium will be $940/mo, or an increase of $160/mo (20%)

- your employer is the state government

I don't know if your employer is using the ACA as the excuse for this increase. And maybe if they are, they are simply responding to their insurer who is using the ACA as an excuse for the increase. We also don't know how much increase you would see if the ACA wasn't passed. (Healthcare costs are projected to increase by 7.5% in 2013, which doubles the 3.9% in 2010 (the last year for which there are official figures.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/31/us-usa-healthcare-costs-idUSBRE84U05620120531

I don't know if you have received increases every year, but those kinds of increases add up in a hurry.

Also, your rates are relatively low. I don't know if you have dependents but COBRA for my wife and myself (no kids) was over $800 per/mo in 2002. So if your plan is through the state, it is a very good one (for you, if not the taxpayers).

Anyway, back to your original question of "What was the benefit and what was fixed?"

For you personally, it sounds like there are no short term benefits and apparently, a short term cost.

So any benefits to you personally are longer term, based on the fact that our current healthcare system (the one you are in) is unsustainable. Our countries expenditures on healthcare (including your $780/mo) are over 17% of GNP and projected to approach 20% by the end of the decade.

Also, you are already paying 3 times more for healthcare than other advanced countries with a single payer system.

As I have previously stated, I am not a fan of the ACA. I want to see a single payer system. We will continue to have cost problems as long as our system is founded on a for-profit insurance model.

The only real benefit of the ACA is that it introduces the concept of universal coverage into the equation. The ACA is apparently the only way that could have happened short of a single payer system which apparently, was not politically feasible. But I doubt that we can drop universal coverage from a political standpoint, so that was at least a giant step forward.

Anyway, in a few more years, I will be eligible for medicare and I can then take the same approach you are: What's in for me?

[AUcivE09 582]

I understand my coverage is relatively cheap - but there are 3 perks to working for the state - Health Ins, retirement, paid holidays. Notice I didnt say pay. I am well below industry standard for my position. <------ Good for taxpayers

"The only real benefit of the ACA is that it introduces the concept of universal coverage into the equation."

I completely disagree and this is my biggest peave with the ACA - healthcare is a luxury and not a right. If things are bad enough there is always a free trip to the ER. Covering a college kid through age 26 is one thing - covering a kid sitting at home with no job is another. This why my rates are jumping. The ACA is not being used as the excuse - it is the problem. BCBS of AL provides our Ins. I was unable to find the number, but the total number of people jumping on the plan who will pay nothing for it is absolutely rediculous.

"For you personally, it sounds like there are no short term benefits and apparently, a short term cost."

I do not see anything short term about this. Are my premiums going to drop? Doubt it.

"Anyway, in a few more years, I will be eligible for medicare and I can then take the same approach you are: What's in for me? "

I am not taking a "What's in it for me" stance. I am aware of my own situation and consider myself a middle class working American. I am not the only one with increases and not the only one who stands to actually lose coverage (so some dropout can go get his "cough meds"). I am sorry if it comes off sounding selfish that I am upset for being penalized for working and going to school. And trust me - there is nothing in it for you (My dad just hit medicare age) and even on a fixed income his rates shot up as well. IMO Obama is taking the poverty line and turning it into the "American Dream" in the name of discrimination. If you come from poverty - where is your motivation? Being poor is a well paying job in this country.

"Also, you are already paying 3 times more for healthcare than other advanced countries with a single payer system."

I am not very well versed on the single payer system, but from what I can tell - there are major flaws with that approach as well. Why couldnt we just fix what we had (get rid of the waste and sytem leeches)? What we had needed tweaking - not replacement. Not to mention if Obama could actually creat jobs then you would have more people paying into the system - instead - he created an atmosphere that has employers laying people off. Mainly low level entry jobs at that.

Also, I read the article and it is mostly just results of a survey used to project an opinion. I know premiums are going up and I know the baby boom generation is killing social security and medicare - however - how is letting more people on the system who do not contribute while raising the prices for working America even remotely sound like a better idea than what we had?

[AUcivE09 582]

And please dont take anything I am saying the wrong way - I enjoy debating with you and titantiger. I agree with both of you on some issues and not so much on others. And considering you guys never agree - its always interesting!

[homersapien 12,329]

I understand my coverage is relatively cheap - but there are 3 perks to working for the state - Health Ins, retirement, paid holidays. Notice I didnt say pay. I am well below industry standard for my position. <------ Good for taxpayers

"The only real benefit of the ACA is that it introduces the concept of universal coverage into the equation."

I completely disagree and this is my biggest peave with the ACA - healthcare is a luxury and not a right. If things are bad enough there is always a free trip to the ER. Covering a college kid through age 26 is one thing - covering a kid sitting at home with no job is another. This why my rates are jumping. The ACA is not being used as the excuse - it is the problem. BCBS of AL provides our Ins. I was unable to find the number, but the total number of people jumping on the plan who will pay nothing for it is absolutely rediculous.

"For you personally, it sounds like there are no short term benefits and apparently, a short term cost."

I do not see anything short term about this. Are my premiums going to drop? Doubt it.

"Anyway, in a few more years, I will be eligible for medicare and I can then take the same approach you are: What's in for me? "

I am not taking a "What's in it for me" stance. I am aware of my own situation and consider myself a middle class working American. I am not the only one with increases and not the only one who stands to actually lose coverage (so some dropout can go get his "cough meds"). I am sorry if it comes off sounding selfish that I am upset for being penalized for working and going to school. And trust me - there is nothing in it for you (My dad just hit medicare age) and even on a fixed income his rates shot up as well. IMO Obama is taking the poverty line and turning it into the "American Dream" in the name of discrimination. If you come from poverty - where is your motivation? Being poor is a well paying job in this country.

"Also, you are already paying 3 times more for healthcare than other advanced countries with a single payer system."

I am not very well versed on the single payer system, but from what I can tell - there are major flaws with that approach as well. Why couldnt we just fix what we had (get rid of the waste and sytem leeches)? What we had needed tweaking - not replacement. Not to mention if Obama could actually creat jobs then you would have more people paying into the system - instead - he created an atmosphere that has employers laying people off. Mainly low level entry jobs at that.

Also, I read the article and it is mostly just results of a survey used to project an opinion. I know premiums are going up and I know the baby boom generation is killing social security and medicare - however - how is letting more people on the system who do not contribute while raising the prices for working America even remotely sound like a better idea than what we had?

First, I must admit to a mistake. My COBRA in 2012 was not $800/mo, it was $600/mo.

The $800/mo figure was stuck in my mind because that was the only policy our broker could find. It was a "hospitalization" policy with a $25k cap!

Anyway, you still are enjoying a bargain, as you acknowledged.

Secondly, I confess to the gov't employee "jab". I actually expect your rates have more to do with market power than "sucking off the taxpayers".

But touche, nice response. (I actually respect people working in the "public sector" -aka G'bmint)

Thirdly, wow, I sense a lot of frustration there. But it still mostly sounds like " Unfair, because this is costing me". That's understandable. But in the greater scheme of things, it's like the frog saying, "the water is still tolerably hot, so why in hell should I get out?".

But at least you also brought up the philosophy at issue - what is one's natural, God-given, right to healthcare in a civilized and/or Christian society?

Good for you. You beat me to it.

I am sorry I don't have the time to respond in detail at the moment. I have personal issues to deal with. But I will get back..

[homersapien 12,329]

And please dont take anything I am saying the wrong way - I enjoy debating with you and titantiger. I agree with both of you on some issues and not so much on others. And considering you guys never agree - its always interesting!

I have no problem with exchanging philosophical or emotional "jabs" as long as they are intelligent/thoughtful/witty/funny.

Nor do I have a problem with laughing at myself. I am the furthest thing from being "intellectually dishonest".

Right Titan?

[autigeremt 7,260]

Homer....working at Auburn isn't exactly government work these days....well, I take that back. While funding from the state has dropped to a mere 15%, the federal takeover of student loans puts Auburn on the hook a good bit more than it once was. But here's our beef! We are fully vested here. Losing what we have built from within is what ticks me off the most. That, and being enslaved by the government.

[4AUsince62 10]

I understand my coverage is relatively cheap - but there are 3 perks to working for the state - Health Ins, retirement, paid holidays. Notice I didnt say pay. I am well below industry standard for my position. <------ Good for taxpayers

"The only real benefit of the ACA is that it introduces the concept of universal coverage into the equation."

I completely disagree and this is my biggest peave with the ACA - healthcare is a luxury and not a right. If things are bad enough there is always a free trip to the ER. Covering a college kid through age 26 is one thing - covering a kid sitting at home with no job is another. This why my rates are jumping. The ACA is not being used as the excuse - it is the problem. BCBS of AL provides our Ins. I was unable to find the number, but the total number of people jumping on the plan who will pay nothing for it is absolutely rediculous.

"For you personally, it sounds like there are no short term benefits and apparently, a short term cost."

I do not see anything short term about this. Are my premiums going to drop? Doubt it.

"Anyway, in a few more years, I will be eligible for medicare and I can then take the same approach you are: What's in for me? "

I am not taking a "What's in it for me" stance. I am aware of my own situation and consider myself a middle class working American. I am not the only one with increases and not the only one who stands to actually lose coverage (so some dropout can go get his "cough meds"). I am sorry if it comes off sounding selfish that I am upset for being penalized for working and going to school. And trust me - there is nothing in it for you (My dad just hit medicare age) and even on a fixed income his rates shot up as well. IMO Obama is taking the poverty line and turning it into the "American Dream" in the name of discrimination. If you come from poverty - where is your motivation? Being poor is a well paying job in this country.

"Also, you are already paying 3 times more for healthcare than other advanced countries with a single payer system."

I am not very well versed on the single payer system, but from what I can tell - there are major flaws with that approach as well. Why couldnt we just fix what we had (get rid of the waste and sytem leeches)? What we had needed tweaking - not replacement. Not to mention if Obama could actually creat jobs then you would have more people paying into the system - instead - he created an atmosphere that has employers laying people off. Mainly low level entry jobs at that.

Also, I read the article and it is mostly just results of a survey used to project an opinion. I know premiums are going up and I know the baby boom generation is killing social security and medicare - however - how is letting more people on the system who do not contribute while raising the prices for working America even remotely sound like a better idea than what we had?

First, I must admit to a mistake. My COBRA in 2012 was not $800/mo, it was $600/mo.

The $800/mo figure was stuck in my mind because that was the only policy our broker could find. It was a "hospitalization" policy with a $25k cap!

Anyway, you still are enjoying a bargain, as you acknowledged.

Secondly, I confess to the gov't employee "jab". I actually expect your rates have more to do with market power than "sucking off the taxpayers".

But touche, nice response. (I actually respect people working in the "public sector" -aka G'bmint)

Thirdly, wow, I sense a lot of frustration there. But it still mostly sounds like " Unfair, because this is costing me". That's understandable. But in the greater scheme of things, it's like the frog saying, "the water is still tolerably hot, so why in hell should I get out?".

But at least you also brought up the philosophy at issue - what is one's natural, God-given, right to healthcare in a civilized and/or Christian society?

Good for you. You beat me to it.

I am sorry I don't have the time to respond in detail at the moment. I have issues to deal with. But I will get back..

In this case, it may be, because what’s making that water "tolerably hot" is intolerably hotter.

[MDM4AU 338]

I don't know if your employer is using the ACA as the excuse for this increase. And maybe if they are, they are simply responding to their insurer who is using the ACA as an excuse for the increase.

Just FYI...

They're self-insured (pay their own claims). I just sat in on their board meeting last week and I have seen their numbers. One ACA fee alone is going to cost the teacher's plan alone appx. $20M in 2014. PCORI will cost them an average of $500k annually for the next 5 years. Because they are self-insured the medical device and pharma tax will cost them appx $5M more per year. The amount the legislature has allowed them per employee hasn't increased in the last 3 years but costs have continued to go up and will go up much more (due to ACA) compared to the last few years.

[homersapien 12,329]

I understand my coverage is relatively cheap - but there are 3 perks to working for the state - Health Ins, retirement, paid holidays. Notice I didnt say pay. I am well below industry standard for my position. <------ Good for taxpayers

"The only real benefit of the ACA is that it introduces the concept of universal coverage into the equation."

I completely disagree and this is my biggest peave with the ACA - healthcare is a luxury and not a right. If things are bad enough there is always a free trip to the ER. Covering a college kid through age 26 is one thing - covering a kid sitting at home with no job is another. This why my rates are jumping. The ACA is not being used as the excuse - it is the problem. BCBS of AL provides our Ins. I was unable to find the number, but the total number of people jumping on the plan who will pay nothing for it is absolutely rediculous.

"For you personally, it sounds like there are no short term benefits and apparently, a short term cost."

I do not see anything short term about this. Are my premiums going to drop? Doubt it.

"Anyway, in a few more years, I will be eligible for medicare and I can then take the same approach you are: What's in for me? "

I am not taking a "What's in it for me" stance. I am aware of my own situation and consider myself a middle class working American. I am not the only one with increases and not the only one who stands to actually lose coverage (so some dropout can go get his "cough meds"). I am sorry if it comes off sounding selfish that I am upset for being penalized for working and going to school. And trust me - there is nothing in it for you (My dad just hit medicare age) and even on a fixed income his rates shot up as well. IMO Obama is taking the poverty line and turning it into the "American Dream" in the name of discrimination. If you come from poverty - where is your motivation? Being poor is a well paying job in this country.

"Also, you are already paying 3 times more for healthcare than other advanced countries with a single payer system."

I am not very well versed on the single payer system, but from what I can tell - there are major flaws with that approach as well. Why couldnt we just fix what we had (get rid of the waste and sytem leeches)? What we had needed tweaking - not replacement. Not to mention if Obama could actually creat jobs then you would have more people paying into the system - instead - he created an atmosphere that has employers laying people off. Mainly low level entry jobs at that.

Also, I read the article and it is mostly just results of a survey used to project an opinion. I know premiums are going up and I know the baby boom generation is killing social security and medicare - however - how is letting more people on the system who do not contribute while raising the prices for working America even remotely sound like a better idea than what we had?

First, I must admit to a mistake. My COBRA in 2012 was not $800/mo, it was $600/mo.

The $800/mo figure was stuck in my mind because that was the only policy our broker could find. It was a "hospitalization" policy with a $25k cap!

Anyway, you still are enjoying a bargain, as you acknowledged.

Secondly, I confess to the gov't employee "jab". I actually expect your rates have more to do with market power than "sucking off the taxpayers".

But touche, nice response. (I actually respect people working in the "public sector" -aka G'bmint)

Thirdly, wow, I sense a lot of frustration there. But it still mostly sounds like " Unfair, because this is costing me". That's understandable. But in the greater scheme of things, it's like the frog saying, "the water is still tolerably hot, so why in hell should I get out?".

But at least you also brought up the philosophy at issue - what is one's natural, God-given, right to healthcare in a civilized and/or Christian society?

Good for you. You beat me to it.

I am sorry I don't have the time to respond in detail at the moment. I have issues to deal with. But I will get back..

In this case, it may be, because what’s making that water "tolerably hot" is intolerably hotter.

They may well be. If so, there will be a reaction. But I don't think going back to status quo ante is going to be an option.

The problem here is the for-profit insurance industry is not going to give up their gravy train. And it seems that our system is ultimately controlled by moneyed interests, so there is a real question in my mind if we are politically capable as a country of doing what is needed.

Come on Medicare!

[homersapien 12,329]

I don't know if your employer is using the ACA as the excuse for this increase. And maybe if they are, they are simply responding to their insurer who is using the ACA as an excuse for the increase.

Just FYI...

They're self-insured (pay their own claims). I just sat in on their board meeting last week and I have seen their numbers. One ACA fee alone is going to cost the teacher's plan alone appx. $20M in 2014. PCORI will cost them an average of $500k annually for the next 5 years. Because they are self-insured the medical device and pharma tax will cost them appx $5M more per year. The amount the legislature has allowed them per employee hasn't increased in the last 3 years but costs have continued to go up and will go up much more (due to ACA) compared to the last few years.

Thanks, but that's Greek to me.

I am the first to admit I don't know the details of the program and the "devil is in the details".