NYT:The administration has now lost all credibility.

[MDM4AU 338]

President Obama's Dragnet

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/07/opinion/president-obamas-dragnet.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

[TitanTiger 21,493]

"It is the very sort of thing against which Mr. Obama once railed, when he said in 2007 that the Bush administration’s surveillance policy “puts forward a false choice between the liberties we cherish and the security we provide.” "

Can anyone credibly claim that Obama has managed to balance the liberties we cherish with the security we provide any better than Bush/Cheney did?

[alexava 6,976]

"It is the very sort of thing against which Mr. Obama once railed, when he said in 2007 that the Bush administration’s surveillance policy “puts forward a false choice between the liberties we cherish and the security we provide.” "

Can anyone credibly claim that Obama has managed to balance the liberties we cherish with the security we provide any better than Bush/Cheney did?

I cant, but this is one area I was on board with Bush. I would lean way more toward the security we provide.

[DKW 86 7,935]

Is any one else noticing that Obama is turning more and more into Bush lately?

i called this guy Barack W. O'Bushma years ago btw. He and Bush43 are just miles in over their head in the WH.

[TitanTiger 21,493]

"It is the very sort of thing against which Mr. Obama once railed, when he said in 2007 that the Bush administration’s surveillance policy “puts forward a false choice between the liberties we cherish and the security we provide.” "

Can anyone credibly claim that Obama has managed to balance the liberties we cherish with the security we provide any better than Bush/Cheney did?

I cant, but this is one area I was on board with Bush. I would lean way more toward the security we provide.

I agree with Barack Obama, circa 2007. I think there's a balance that he and Bush have drifted far away from.

[AURaptor 1,137]

Is any one else noticing that Obama is turning more and more into Bush lately?

[AUMed 0]

Well since this was Bush's program... I find it disturbing that the program exists at all much less that it has had the vast majority of the Senate, House, and administrations of both democratic and republican presidents supporting it.

But to be clear, this isn't an Obama thing... this is a whole government thing.

[AURaptor 1,137]

Well since this was Bush's program... I find it disturbing that the program exists at all much less that it has had the vast majority of the Senate, House, and administrations of both democratic and republican presidents supporting it.

But to be clear, this isn't an Obama thing... this is a whole government thing.

I stand by my position that the origins of the TEA party mind set started when Bush was still in office, and was not, as so many have tried to claim, a reaction by racist Americans to the election of a black man in the White House. I remember lots of folks being furious ( or at least very upset ) at Bush's love for expanding govt, from Farm Aid, Airline Aid, Pharmaceuticals Bill, to the 'Comprehensive' idea on reforming immigration. It was the latter, back in '07, where I think many average citizens realized that no one in D.C. was listening to what the people were saying.

[Auburn85 438]

Well since this was Bush's program... I find it disturbing that the program exists at all much less that it has had the vast majority of the Senate, House, and administrations of both democratic and republican presidents supporting it.

But to be clear, this isn't an Obama thing... this is a whole government thing.

Had Obama not signed the Patriot Act renewal, what would happened?

[TitanTiger 21,493]

Obama has chosen to take most of the worst aspects of Bush's policies on civil liberties and either blithely continue them unchanged or in some cases double down and make them worse (see the NDAA). It was the Bush Administration's idea. But it's on Obama that he's done virtually nothing to rein it in. The NYT is absolutely right:

Mr. Obama is proving the truism that the executive will use any power it is given and very likely abuse it.

[TexasTiger 14,484]

Well since this was Bush's program... I find it disturbing that the program exists at all much less that it has had the vast majority of the Senate, House, and administrations of both democratic and republican presidents supporting it.

But to be clear, this isn't an Obama thing... this is a whole government thing.

No facts and reason, please. It gets in the way of a good rant.

[TitanTiger 21,493]

Well since this was Bush's program... I find it disturbing that the program exists at all much less that it has had the vast majority of the Senate, House, and administrations of both democratic and republican presidents supporting it.

But to be clear, this isn't an Obama thing... this is a whole government thing.

No facts and reason, please. It gets in the way of a good rant.

I don't recall anyone saying it was just an Obama thing.

Where it falls harder on him is that he made some grandiose claims and statements about how Bush was doing it all wrong and infringing on our liberties and that we didn't have to sacrifice our civil liberties for security. Then he proceeded to do little to change it and in some cases make it worse. So he gets called out on the hypocrisy and deservedly so.

I've said many times now that it's not a Right vs Left issue, it's a Ruling Class vs the Rest of Us issue. So I'm not sure why this post is some ray of "facts and reason" to you.

[DKW 86 7,935]

Tex, it is a Obama thing when he campaigned on how bad Bush43 was doing it, and then:

1) Signed for it to continue

2) Actually made it worse...

3) Shows no remorse for the total hipocrisy.

[autigeremt 7,251]

Well since this was Bush's program... I find it disturbing that the program exists at all much less that it has had the vast majority of the Senate, House, and administrations of both democratic and republican presidents supporting it.

But to be clear, this isn't an Obama thing... this is a whole government thing.

Ding, ding, ding, ding!!!!!

[TexasTiger 14,484]

Tex, it is a Obama thing when he campaigned on how bad Bush43 was doing it, and then:

1) Signed for it to continue

2) Actually made it worse...

3) Shows no remorse for the total hipocrisy.

Flashback to 2008:

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2008/07/senate-approv-1/

[TitanTiger 21,493]

I get that the Congress approved this. Most of those votes came from people in Congress that supported such invasive measures from the beginning. Obama on the other hand campaigned against these sort of invasive erosions of our civil liberties that he now reauthorizes, uses and in some cases expands.

[shabby 2,081]

Getting back on topic, the NYT has amended its "scathing" editorial and tamped it down a bit.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/media/2013/06/ny-times-changes-scathing-editorial-165650.html?hp=l5

@TitanTiger: Hilarious picture. I don't care what side of the aisle you fall on

[TitanTiger 21,493]

“The good news? It’s getting increasingly difficult for anyone to hate us for our freedoms.” - Dale Price

[alexava 6,976]

I get that the Congress approved this. Most of those votes came from people in Congress that supported such invasive measures from the beginning. Obama on the other hand campaigned against these sort of invasive erosions of our civil liberties that he now reauthorizes, uses and in some cases expands.

he might have been convinced to change his mind rayher than just flat out lie about it. I change mine when i feel i need to. I hope we all are not so stubborn that we cant adapt to new ideals as we gain more knowledge.

[TitanTiger 21,493]

I get that the Congress approved this. Most of those votes came from people in Congress that supported such invasive measures from the beginning. Obama on the other hand campaigned against these sort of invasive erosions of our civil liberties that he now reauthorizes, uses and in some cases expands.

he might have been convinced to change his mind rayher than just flat out lie about it. I change mine when i feel i need to. I hope we all are not so stubborn that we cant adapt to new ideals as we gain more knowledge.

Then admit that. What he's done instead is become a Bush clone on the subject, but still talk nonsense about preserving our liberties.

[japantiger 4,148]

Tex, it is a Obama thing when he campaigned on how bad Bush43 was doing it, and then:

1) Signed for it to continue

2) Actually made it worse...

3) Shows no remorse for the total hipocrisy.

Bingo.

[alexava 6,976]

I get that the Congress approved this. Most of those votes came from people in Congress that supported such invasive measures from the beginning. Obama on the other hand campaigned against these sort of invasive erosions of our civil liberties that he now reauthorizes, uses and in some cases expands.

he might have been convinced to change his mind rayher than just flat out lie about it. I change mine when i feel i need to. I hope we all are not so stubborn that we cant adapt to new ideals as we gain more knowledge.

Then admit that. What he's done instead is become a Bush clone on the subject, but still talk nonsense about preserving our liberties.

agree

[AUGradinTX 0]

I get that the Congress approved this. Most of those votes came from people in Congress that supported such invasive measures from the beginning. Obama on the other hand campaigned against these sort of invasive erosions of our civil liberties that he now reauthorizes, uses and in some cases expands.

he might have been convinced to change his mind rayher than just flat out lie about it. I change mine when i feel i need to. I hope we all are not so stubborn that we cant adapt to new ideals as we gain more knowledge.

You think someone convinced him to change his mind as to whether americans have a right to privacy? Interesting...

To me, that isn't something someone can convince me otherwise. It is non-negotiable. This is not a democracy, but a republic.

[TexasTiger 14,484]

Tex, it is a Obama thing when he campaigned on how bad Bush43 was doing it, and then:

1) Signed for it to continue

2) Actually made it worse...

3) Shows no remorse for the total hipocrisy.

What are you claiming is "worse?"

[homersapien 12,281]

Bush clearly broke the law. Obama has not.