The religion of peace at it again

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

aubfaninga......with all due respect that's a pretty wish washy answer

But at least you took a crack at it. That's more than anyone else has.

[Weegle777 78]

Question (not aimed at anyone in particular)......I'm a Christian. If I am a soldier in Iraq serving my country during a war and I kill an Iraqi, does that mean I am not a born again believer in Jesus Christ?

Not at all. That could be asked about a homeowner that kills someone that breaks into his home while protecting his family. A member of the military doesn't join, if he or she is a follower of Christ, with the sole intent to just kill people. There is a greater purpose for joining. Not saying that everyone that isn't a believer joins just to kill. Hope that is clear enough.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

I agree Weegle, but I bet some here have a problem even with that.

[Mikey 16,576]

Actually, you guys are the ones implying all Muslims are terrorists when that is obviously not true.

And I fail to see how this has anything to do with moral relativism. This is about making sweeping generalizations.

Of all the religious terrorism that's occurring in the world today, 95% of it, or more, is what religion?

Take a guess.

What has that got to do with the fact that Islamic extremists are not representative of Islam as a whole?

What makes you think they are not? I'm still waiting for the throngs of Moslems that abhor terrorism to step forward and say so. When do those Moslems that are "representative of the whole" start marching, protesting, taking some action? Any action? Until they do some renouncing they are giving tacit approval to the actions of the murderers.

Now let us view ourselves thru the same microscope you just proposed...

How many more Auburn student deaths will it take for the same level of response you expect from others?

The question is flawed from the beginning and with all respect Mikey, shows the ignorance of thinking it's the world against Muslims.

The school murders were "muslims"(Taliban) killing "muslims" (Pakistani Civilians) in retaliation of the Pakistani government "muslims" standing up and targeting terrorists who just happen to be "muslim".

Do I need to tell you who is staring down the barrels of rifles aimed at ISIS "muslim" terrorists? "muslims"

Afghanistan is at war with the Taliban at this very moment.

There are "muslims" in aircrafts right beside Americans trying to kill ISIS "muslims".

Your analogy of AU students is not valid. Local churches and student organizations are all mourning the referenced shooting death. When the Moslem professional religious leaders and their masses speak out against these terrorists acts I'll re-evaluate my opinion. Until then it's safe to assume that the majority agree with the beheading of captives and the stoning of women for speaking to strangers.

Moslems killing other moslems has been going on since time out of mind. They will be doing that a long time after we leave them to their doings. It's what happens in religious wars and what's going on with them is a religious war, pure and simple.

[aubfaninga 16]

I agree Weegle, but I bet some here have a problem even with that.

I agree that Weegle did great at explaining,

I was not dodging the question just giving a platform to build upon a question with so many possible variables.

I feel that we are called for different things. Some to marriage, some to teaching, others law enforcement, and others military. I myself have really passive tendencies toward bodily harm to others which is exactly why I know the military was not my calling. For those that act on the calling of military service I can only pray that they have scripture and faith to lead their heart.

Let's assume the soldier joined for financial reasons and/or the simple want to just serve for his country. I can see no sin

Yeshua had an encounter with a Roman Soldier. He did not rebuke or offer wisdom into his profession but instead used him to illustrate faith. Peter had a like encounter (possibly same guy???) with a military man and nothing spoken against him.

To dig deeper I will refer back to the greatest prophet ever born of woman. John the Baptist not only received the living oracle of baptism but also immersed the Son of GOD. His ministry breathed repentance with every step. Surely he would correct anything wrong with military service.

Luke 3:14

"And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages."

Some take the statement "do violence to no man" and build their doctrine around this one verse. Sad but true. Firstly, I don't see John rebuking the soldiers. Rather he gave them wisdom to govern their conscience. For me, his statement can only be defined using the guidelines set forth in the Old Testament governing violence and protection from accidental shedding of innocent blood.

I think the evidence in scripture is abundantly clear that GOD prefers us to have peace at all times but he has allowed his children LIBERTY to thrive in a sinful world.

James 1

"So then, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath; for the wrath of man does not produce the righteousness of God.

Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does."

!!!!"But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does."!!!! Even a soldier !!!

[TheBlueVue 177]

"Let's assume the soldier joined for financial reasons and/or the simple want to just serve for his country. I can see no sin"

What about those joining in war to kill infidels? Radical Islamists are using social media and actively recruiting young people from around the world and many lone wolves are becoming radicalized w/o actually joining the caliphate.

[Weegle777 78]

"Let's assume the soldier joined for financial reasons and/or the simple want to just serve for his country. I can see no sin"

What about those joining in war to kill infidels? Radical Islamists are using social media and actively recruiting young people from around the world and many lone wolves are becoming radicalized w/o actually joining the caliphate.

Those people are driven by Satan not God.

[aubfaninga 16]

"Let's assume the soldier joined for financial reasons and/or the simple want to just serve for his country. I can see no sin"

What about those joining in war to kill infidels? Radical Islamists are using social media and actively recruiting young people from around the world and many lone wolves are becoming radicalized w/o actually joining the caliphate.

Now you just changed the variables and baseline we had laid down. For purpose of explaining Sin it can mean to fall short of an intended goal or simply to miss a mark. Both work great in trying to give illustrations on sin. If the mark or goal is moved then we must start over.

{By the way, I did not define sin just giving an illustration. Sin is clearly defined in 1 John 3:4 and I pray more people would put faith in that definition.}

You asked,

"What about those...to kill infidels?" This is outside the original baseline of the person being a born again believer and cannot piggy back off my earlier answer.

#1 A born again believer that obeys the two greatest commandments would never join to kill "infidels".

#2 If said believer did they have abandoned Jesus. SIN

I believe you were asking how we felt if a muslim joined to kill infidels. Of course in my faith I feel this person has been either deceived, blinded, never exposed to the gospel, or just plain evil. In every case this man is sinning, "coming short of an intended goal". YES, he is sinning

Can I judge past that and damn him to hell? Sure I could but I dare not. I am not capable of judging a mans heart.

Too much theology to unpack here. I am not a universalist but I do believe in a millennial reign of the messiah and this 1000 years and it's purpose is deeper than some care to study.

[Weegle777 78]

Just a side note:

If you guys want to read two books that will totally change your life and your image of Jesus and how you view Grace, they are,

Beautiful Outlaw by John Eldridge

Relaxing With God by Andrew Farley

The book by Farley explains how we should live under Grace and how the law, if you are not Jewish, was never meant for you and how you were not included in it(gentiles).

[aubfaninga 16]

Just a side note:

If you guys want to read two books that will totally change your life and your image of Jesus and how you view Grace, they are,

Beautiful Outlaw by John Eldridge

Relaxing With God by Andrew Farley

The book by Farley explains how we should live under Grace and how the law, if you are not Jewish, was never meant for you and how you were not included in it(gentiles).

Weeegle I would love the chance to discuss and reason these things with you. The LAW was given for the "children of GOD".

What is a "gentile" repenting from? Why do they need grace and from what? What sins does baptism wash away?

Law and grace do not work in competition with each other but in perfect cooperation. The law points out sin, and grace saves from sin. The law is the will of God, and grace is the power to do the will of God. We do not obey the law in order to be saved but because we are saved. A beautiful text which combines the two in their true relationship is... “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.” What a perfect description of faith and works! And the combination is found in those who are “saints.”

The works of obedience are the real test of love. This is why they are so necessary in the experience of a true believer. “Faith without works is dead”. Jesus said, “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven”.

Words and profession are not enough. The true evidence is obedience. Today’s bumper stickers reflect a shallow concept of love. They say, “Smile if you love Jesus,” “Honk if you love Jesus”; but what did the Master Himself say? He said, “If ye love me, keep my commandments” . And that is exactly what most people don’t want to do. If love makes no demands beyond a smile or wave, then it is welcome; but if the lifestyle must be disturbed, the majority will reject it. Unfortunately, most people today are not looking for truth. They are looking for a smooth, easy, comfortable religion that will allow them to live the way they please and still give assurance of salvation. There is indeed no true religion that can do that for them.

One of the strongest texts in the Bible on this subject is found in 1 John 2:4. “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” John could write that with such assurance because it is one of the most deeply established truths in the Bible. Jesus spoke of those who said, “Lord, Lord,” but did not do the will of the Father. Then He described many who would seek entrance to the kingdom claiming to be workers of miracles in the name of Christ. But He would sorrowfully have to say, “I never knew you: depart from me” (Matthew 7:21–23). You see, to know Christ is to love Him, and to love Him is to obey Him. The valid assumption of the Bible writers is very clear and simple: If one is not obeying Christ, he does not love Christ. And if he doesn’t love the Master, then he doesn’t know Him. John assured us, “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent” (John 17:3). Thus, we can see how knowing and loving and obeying are all tied closely together and are absolutely inseparable in the life of God’s faithful people. The beloved John summed it up in these words: “For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous” (1 John 5:3).

A direct commandment from Jesus...

Matthew 5

" “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets."

"I did not come to destroy but to fulfill." (Greek word "pleroo" points straight to Deuteronomy 27:26 " Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.") Not only did Jesus and Paul keep the LAW, they taught it.

"For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven"

2 Timothy 4

"Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."

Jeremiah 16

"O Lord, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit."

Isaiah 56

1 Thus saith the Lord, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.

² Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.

³ Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the Lord, speak, saying, The Lord hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.

⁴ For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;

⁵ Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

⁶ Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

⁷ Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

[Weegle777 78]

Tell you what, I will start a new thread so we can discuss it so we won't derail this one.