Obama’s Cuba Surprise

[homersapien 11,353]

You guys are so hellbent on griping about Obama you constantly grasp at straws. Anything congress wants to do, they can do in January. Government goes on even during a do-nothing congress' lengthy recesses.

You guys are hellbent on the continued transformation of the nation into something that looks more like Europe (or Cuba for some). Unfortunately for you.....we won't stand down.

We need to slowly reach out to Cuba, but why not work with Congress on something that comes from the people instead of another "Memoranda"? Oh.....that's because it's not worth the time. :dunno:/>

Because every time this subject is broached, Congress kills it because too many representatives listen to the vocal minority in South Florida that can sway an election for that state. It's the tail wagging the dog.

Get out of the 'procedures' mindset for a second and just ask yourself...is this the right move (to start opening relations with Cuba)? If so, then move forward and get Congress on board. If not, explain why continuing the policy of the last 50 years makes sense.

The vocal minority deserve to be heard because they lived it. The right move is to work with them first (US Citizens) and move ahead. THAT would be unheard of.

U.S. citizens should put the interests of the U.S. first. The U.S. is not obligated to cater to the specialized desires of an immigrant community if it is against the interests of the U.S.

This is in the interest of the U.S. and will ultimate benefit Cubans.

the only Cubans this will benefit is the Castro regime. Ordinary Cubans won't see any benefit from this.

If true (which it's not), that would only hasten the downfall of the government.

[quietfan 233]

All Im going on is the unanimous reaction by the Cuban american community. They are not happy and this is not about party affiliation. Both democrat and republican Cuban American have opined this is a horrible deal for the Cuban people and America. Im thinking they are probably pretty good authority on the matter.

Unanimous? Who polled them all, you or someone else?

I'm thinking they are also probably the most biased and least objective on the matter. Perhaps they are a good authority, I don't know. But I'd wager they are also a biased 'authority' driven more by emotion, personal history, and political agenda than by logic or facts...or the best interest of the United States.

Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) is breaking with other Republican presidential hopefuls and backing President Obama's decision to launch talks normalizing relations with Cuba. Paul criticized the trade and travel embargo on Cuba as ineffective, separating himself from former Florida Gov. Jeb Bush and Sens. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) and Ted Cruz (R-Texas), who have criticized Obama and backed the embargo. http://thehill.com/b...amas-cuba-moves

Feels awfully strange to agree with Rand Paul on anything, but in this case he sums it up nicely:

Paul told Tom Roten of News Talk 800 in West Virginia that the 50-year embargo "just hasn't worked" and normalizing relations with the island nation is "probably a good idea."

"If the goal is regime change, it sure doesn't seem to be working and probably it punishes the people more than the regime because the regime can blame the embargo for hardship," he said.

[WarTim 3,456]

Simple politics. barry working on his "legacy"......Good luck with that...

[TitanTiger 20,471]

All Im going on is the unanimous reaction by the Cuban american community. They are not happy and this is not about party affiliation. Both democrat and republican Cuban American have opined this is a horrible deal for the Cuban people and America. Im thinking they are probably pretty good authority on the matter.

Unanimous? Who polled them all, you or someone else?

I'm thinking they are also probably the most biased and least objective on the matter. Perhaps they are a good authority, I don't know. But I'd wager they are also a biased 'authority' driven more by emotion, personal history, and political agenda than by logic or facts...or the best interest of the United States.

Interestingly, I was just reading where the Cuban community is split on the issue, largely along generational lines. Older ones want the status quo, younger ones are inclined to try this new approach.

[AUDub 11,131]

Feels awfully strange to agree with Rand Paul on anything, but in this case he sums it up nicely:

Good example of a stopped clock.

[homersapien 11,353]

All Im going on is the unanimous reaction by the Cuban american community. They are not happy and this is not about party affiliation. Both democrat and republican Cuban American have opined this is a horrible deal for the Cuban people and America. Im thinking they are probably pretty good authority on the matter.

Unanimous? Who polled them all, you or someone else?

I'm thinking they are also probably the most biased and least objective on the matter. Perhaps they are a good authority, I don't know. But I'd wager they are also a biased 'authority' driven more by emotion, personal history, and political agenda than by logic or facts...or the best interest of the United States.

Interestingly, I was just reading where the Cuban community is split on the issue, largely along generational lines. Older ones want the status quo, younger ones are inclined to try this new approach.

52 % support lifting restrictions as a whole. The only age group among Cuban-Americans that oppose it are people 65 and older. A majority of everyone younger supports it. (PBS News Hour)

[TitanTiger 20,471]

Every comment I see from Rubio and others opposing this give reasons that equally apply to China for instance. Yet I've never seen any of them calling for us to put the same embargo on China that we have on Cuba. I wonder why?

[quietfan 233]

Feels awfully strange to agree with Rand Paul on anything, but in this case he sums it up nicely:

Good example of a stopped clock.

I don't know. I have trouble believing he could be right twice a day!

[AUUSN 823]

Every comment I see from Rubio and others opposing this give reasons that equally apply to China for instance. Yet I've never seen any of them calling for us to put the same embargo on China that we have on Cuba. I wonder why?

[homersapien 11,353]

Because they didn't kicked out of China. Seriously.

Their objections are all about what they loss which is understandable, but they are now American citizens and it's time to get over it. It's obvious the current Cuban government will have to be changed by the Cubans and there is just no reason to think this will slow or stop that. Just the opposite.

[TexasTiger 12,810]

Every comment I see from Rubio and others opposing this give reasons that equally apply to China for instance. Yet I've never seen any of them calling for us to put the same embargo on China that we have on Cuba. I wonder why?

Irrational hypocrisy?

[cooltigger21 0]

You guys are so hellbent on griping about Obama you constantly grasp at straws. Anything congress wants to do, they can do in January. Government goes on even during a do-nothing congress' lengthy recesses.

You guys are hellbent on the continued transformation of the nation into something that looks more like Europe (or Cuba for some). Unfortunately for you.....we won't stand down.

We need to slowly reach out to Cuba, but why not work with Congress on something that comes from the people instead of another "Memoranda"? Oh.....that's because it's not worth the time. :dunno:/>

Because every time this subject is broached, Congress kills it because too many representatives listen to the vocal minority in South Florida that can sway an election for that state. It's the tail wagging the dog.

Get out of the 'procedures' mindset for a second and just ask yourself...is this the right move (to start opening relations with Cuba)? If so, then move forward and get Congress on board. If not, explain why continuing the policy of the last 50 years makes sense.

The vocal minority deserve to be heard because they lived it. The right move is to work with them first (US Citizens) and move ahead. THAT would be unheard of.

U.S. citizens should put the interests of the U.S. first. The U.S. is not obligated to cater to the specialized desires of an immigrant community if it is against the interests of the U.S.

This is in the interest of the U.S. and will ultimate benefit Cubans.

the only Cubans this will benefit is the Castro regime. Ordinary Cubans won't see any benefit from this.

If true (which it's not), that would only hasten the downfall of the government.

If I seriously throught this would help then I would day it's a good idea. I just don't see it. As for China they are as brutal as ever. They have a billion plus people to feed. One little island is much easier to control.

[TitanTiger 20,471]

If I seriously throught this would help then I would day it's a good idea. I just don't see it.

Yet you think in year 51, or 60, or 75 our current policy will? I mean, we've seen this work to increasing degrees with China and Vietnam. They are still bad, but they are better than they were 25 or 40 years ago. That comes by exposing them to freedoms and something better than what they've been told. Why wouldn't it improve the situation with Cuba?

As for China they are as brutal as ever. They have a billion plus people to feed. One little island is much easier to control.

China is also much bigger of a threat. Yet we trade with them. And their president visits ours and vice versa. Cuba is not some special, unique little snowflake that deserves harsher treatment.

Be consistent. If you want to embargo Cuba until Jesus comes back or they repent of their communist and totalitarianism, then apply that same standard to China, Vietnam and every other place like them. Don't sell to them, don't buy from them, ban travel to them, don't speak to them. Or treat Cuba the same way that you treat China and Vietnam now.

[AUDub 11,131]

Found a comment on another forum I frequent that I think nails it. The author is a blogger from Mexico City:

News of great joy.

For the Americas, but mostly for the Cuban people, who will be helped in the path of the needed recovery of democracy.

The Embargo has always been counterproductive: it has given the Cuban regime, for decades, an excuse for their utter failure to guarantee decent living conditions and minimal freedoms to the citizens.

No toilet paper? Blame it on American imperialism.

I doubt Congress will lift it, but it should.

Revolutionary Cuba, after a short lively period, became, economically, a parasite State. First of the Soviet Union; then of Iran & Venezuela, and recently Putin's Russia. In the few years they had to live on their own, without huge subsidies, the economy and the standard of living plummeted badly.

Iran has become moderate and is defreezing its relationship with the United States. Venezuela's economy is in shambles and will be in more trouble now with falling oil prices. Same thing with Russia, doomed for a severe recession. None of these countries can subsidize Cuba the way they had.

Raúl is a shrewd fellow. He knows that the Cuban economy will have to depend more and more on foreign investment. This is no time for ideological baths of purity. The Chinese model looks more and more appealing.

The Cuban refugees in Miami belong to different generations, each more liberal and less attached to the Isla than the former. The old, bitter generation of first comers is mostly dead... or over 80. Most of the second and third generation Cuban-Americans, and the second generation of Marielitos think more like Americans than like Cuban refugees, mainly because they're not.

Some politicians may be very vocal, but they do not reppresent the community, in my opinion.

As for Obama, kudos for his audacity.

Pope Francis and the Canadian government should also be praised for their discrete intermediation.

[cooltigger21 0]

If I seriously throught this would help then I would day it's a good idea. I just don't see it.

Yet you think in year 51, or 60, or 75 our current policy will? I mean, we've seen this work to increasing degrees with China and Vietnam. They are still bad, but they are better than they were 25 or 40 years ago. That comes by exposing them to freedoms and something better than what they've been told. Why wouldn't it improve the situation with Cuba?

As for China they are as brutal as ever. They have a billion plus people to feed. One little island is much easier to control.

China is also much bigger of a threat. Yet we trade with them. And their president visits ours and vice versa. Cuba is not some special, unique little snowflake that deserves harsher treatment.

Be consistent. If you want to embargo Cuba until Jesus comes back or they repent of their communist and totalitarianism, then apply that same standard to China, Vietnam and every other place like them. Don't sell to them, don't buy from them, ban travel to them, don't speak to them. Or treat Cuba the same way that you treat China and Vietnam now.

this is not going to hasten the end of the regime there. Now they have access to more money to prop them up. We have traded with Cuba. We just made them pay cash for it. They have a long history of stiffing people. They did it to Russia who was their ally. I will trade with them all day long but no credit, cash on the barrelhead only.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

Titan....huge difference between Cuba and China for example. China is a world power, Cuba is a nit. China has great influence on the world economy, Cuba does not. China has nukes, Cuba does not. I could go on but that's enough. The only thing that will change with Obama's policy is the Castros get more money and recognition. They arise from the dead.

[homersapien 11,353]

You guys are so hellbent on griping about Obama you constantly grasp at straws. Anything congress wants to do, they can do in January. Government goes on even during a do-nothing congress' lengthy recesses.

You guys are hellbent on the continued transformation of the nation into something that looks more like Europe (or Cuba for some). Unfortunately for you.....we won't stand down.

We need to slowly reach out to Cuba, but why not work with Congress on something that comes from the people instead of another "Memoranda"? Oh.....that's because it's not worth the time. :dunno:/>

Because every time this subject is broached, Congress kills it because too many representatives listen to the vocal minority in South Florida that can sway an election for that state. It's the tail wagging the dog.

Get out of the 'procedures' mindset for a second and just ask yourself...is this the right move (to start opening relations with Cuba)? If so, then move forward and get Congress on board. If not, explain why continuing the policy of the last 50 years makes sense.

The vocal minority deserve to be heard because they lived it. The right move is to work with them first (US Citizens) and move ahead. THAT would be unheard of.

U.S. citizens should put the interests of the U.S. first. The U.S. is not obligated to cater to the specialized desires of an immigrant community if it is against the interests of the U.S.

This is in the interest of the U.S. and will ultimate benefit Cubans.

the only Cubans this will benefit is the Castro regime. Ordinary Cubans won't see any benefit from this.

If true (which it's not), that would only hasten the downfall of the government.

If I seriously throught this would help then I would day it's a good idea. I just don't see it. As for China they are as brutal as ever. They have a billion plus people to feed. One little island is much easier to control.

Well I can't tell from your posts when - if ever - you are seriously thinking.

But it you don't think the influx of American tourists, money, products and culture would be helpful in bringing about change in a closed, tightly controlled, repressed society then you are not seriously thinking about this at all. Not to mention having masses of Cubans visit this country.

[WarTim 3,456]

All Im going on is the unanimous reaction by the Cuban american community. They are not happy and this is not about party affiliation. Both democrat and republican Cuban American have opined this is a horrible deal for the Cuban people and America. Im thinking they are probably pretty good authority on the matter.

Unanimous? Who polled them all, you or someone else?

I'm thinking they are also probably the most biased and least objective on the matter. Perhaps they are a good authority, I don't know. But I'd wager they are also a biased 'authority' driven more by emotion, personal history, and political agenda than by logic or facts...or the best interest of the United States.

Interestingly, I was just reading where the Cuban community is split on the issue, largely along generational lines. Older ones want the status quo, younger ones are inclined to try this new approach.

52 % support lifting restrictions as a whole. The only age group among Cuban-Americans that oppose it are people 65 and older. A majority of everyone younger supports it. (PBS News Hour)

PBS? And you doubt FOX? Bwahahahaha

[homersapien 11,353]

All Im going on is the unanimous reaction by the Cuban american community. They are not happy and this is not about party affiliation. Both democrat and republican Cuban American have opined this is a horrible deal for the Cuban people and America. Im thinking they are probably pretty good authority on the matter.

Unanimous? Who polled them all, you or someone else?

I'm thinking they are also probably the most biased and least objective on the matter. Perhaps they are a good authority, I don't know. But I'd wager they are also a biased 'authority' driven more by emotion, personal history, and political agenda than by logic or facts...or the best interest of the United States.

Interestingly, I was just reading where the Cuban community is split on the issue, largely along generational lines. Older ones want the status quo, younger ones are inclined to try this new approach.

52 % support lifting restrictions as a whole. The only age group among Cuban-Americans that oppose it are people 65 and older. A majority of everyone younger supports it. (PBS News Hour)

PBS? And you doubt FOX? Bwahahahaha

Seriously? You compare PBS to Fox? :-\

https://cri.fiu.edu/research/cuba-poll/2014-fiu-cuba-poll.pdf

[homersapien 11,353]

But if insist on sticking to news outlets serving the "non-critically thinking", even Fox News Latino reported this.

http://latino.foxnew...oppose-embargo/

Sux to be proven wrong by your own preferred sources, huh?

"The study found that 62 percent of Cuban-Americans between ages 18-29 oppose continuing the embargo that the United States has imposed on Cuba since 1962.

Sharing that opinion are 58 percent of Cubans of all ages who came to the United States since 1995, according to the survey, the seventh that FIU has taken since 1991.

More than half the Cuban-Americans in Miami-Dade County reject continuing the embargo and 71 percent think it never worked.

Support for the embargo has clearly plummeted from its 84-percent average in the 1990s."

[cooltigger21 0]

The cuban government was getting close to losing the means to sustain itself financially. The Venezuelans have been their major benefactor since the fall of the Soviet Union. They are on the verge of financial and political collapse. Well here comes Obama to the rescue, providing all sorts of goodies and an new influx of money to continue propping up the Castro Regime. Nice move.

[homersapien 11,353]

And, soo much for a "President Rubio" :

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/marco-rubios-fury-over-the-cuba-shift-shows-why-obama-made-the-right-move/2014/12/17/42ead216-8632-11e4-b9b7-b8632ae73d25_story.html

“I don’t care if the polls say that 99 percent of people believe we should normalize relations in Cuba,” Rubio answered, later adding: “I don’t care if 99 percent of people in polls disagree with my position. This is my position, and I feel passionately about it.”

He threatened to use his new position as a subcommittee chairman on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee to block the nomination of an ambassador to Cuba and the building of an embassy there, and he said the better policy would be to increase the Soviet-era sanctions.

Rubio’s emotional — and at times inaccurate — response to the policy change shows why Obama’s move to normalize ties to Cuba after more than half a century is both good policy and good politics. It’s good policy because it jettisons a vestigial policy that has stopped serving a useful purpose, and because it is a gutsy move by Obama that demonstrates strong leadership and will help revive him from lame-duck status. It’s good politics because it will reveal that the Cuban American old guard, whose position Rubio represents, no longer speaks for most Cuban Americans....

[homersapien 11,353]

The cuban government was getting close to losing the means to sustain itself financially. The Venezuelans have been their major benefactor since the fall of the Soviet Union. They are on the verge of financial and political collapse. Well here comes Obama to the rescue, providing all sorts of goodies and an new influx of money to continue propping up the Castro Regime. Nice move.

Right. After 50 years we're almost there... :-\

As if growing national wealth is really required to sustain a totalitarian regime.

[cooltigger21 0]

The cuban government was getting close to losing the means to sustain itself financially. The Venezuelans have been their major benefactor since the fall of the Soviet Union. They are on the verge of financial and political collapse. Well here comes Obama to the rescue, providing all sorts of goodies and an new influx of money to continue propping up the Castro Regime. Nice move.

Right. After 50 years we're almost there... :-\

As if growing national wealth is really required to sustain a totalitarian regime.

[cooltigger21 0]

Well homie, if you think this move is going to expedite things you are out of your everloving mind. I don't give a rip if it takes a hundred years, there is no good reason to do this. You guys were the ones that didn't want to confront the Russians and went ape sh*t batty when Reagan called them the evil empire. What is it about liberals that makes you want to surrender in the face of our enemies? You never want to confront anyone.