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Obama’s Cuba Surprise


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My way? Why do you make such a concerted effort to personalize everything? I dont have a way little buddy, I simply do not approve of doing business with dictators when their record of human rights violations is as stark as the Castor brothers has been.

So I assume you would support us withdrawing from China and Vietnam and treat them like we've treated Cuba for the last 50 years?

We're not withdrawing from Cuba sir. We're coming to their rescue. I am against it and you are for it. I get that and you're conservative but in this case, presumably, too smart for the conservative "voice machine" whoever or whatever that is. Each nation has to be dealt with individually but this admin operates on a one policy fits all..propitiate the dictators of the world and turn a deaf ear on and ignore everyone else.

Stop dodging. You said you don't approve of doing business with dictators with deplorable human rights records. Evidently that isn't true.

Im not dodging. The topic is whether or not I support a policy that benefits the Castro brothers. I know too much about them from personal involvement with people who escaped from Cuba in the 60s to be in favor of it. Discussing Vietnam and/or China is a different thread. Start one if that is where you want to go here.

I'll continue it here. Because your reasoning is inconsistent. So helping a human-rights violating Vietnamese or Chinese dictatorship is perfectly acceptable but not for Cuba?

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My way? Why do you make such a concerted effort to personalize everything? I dont have a way little buddy, I simply do not approve of doing business with dictators when their record of human rights violations is as stark as the Castor brothers has been.

So I assume you would support us withdrawing from China and Vietnam and treat them like we've treated Cuba for the last 50 years?

We're not withdrawing from Cuba sir. We're coming to their rescue. I am against it and you are for it. I get that and you're conservative but in this case, presumably, too smart for the conservative "voice machine" whoever or whatever that is. Each nation has to be dealt with individually but this admin operates on a one policy fits all..propitiate the dictators of the world and turn a deaf ear on and ignore everyone else.

Stop dodging. You said you don't approve of doing business with dictators with deplorable human rights records. Evidently that isn't true.

Im not dodging. The topic is whether or not I support a policy that benefits the Castro brothers. I know too much about them from personal involvement with people who escaped from Cuba in the 60s to be in favor of it. Discussing Vietnam and/or China is a different thread. Start one if that is where you want to go here.

I'll continue it here. Because your reasoning is inconsistent. So helping a human-rights violating Vietnamese or Chinese dictatorship is perfectly acceptable but not for Cuba?

I simply do not see the relevance. Frankly, unless you can tell me exactly what those human rights violations are, Im operating at a disadvantage. I know what the Castor brothers were doing and continue to do so that has a bigger impact on my perspective. Evidently, your objective is to expand the debate to prove me wrong. By contrast, Im not interested in even attempting to prove you wrong. Unlike you, I can accept the fact that you have a different point of view while you seem to struggle with granting me the same consideration.

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My way? Why do you make such a concerted effort to personalize everything? I dont have a way little buddy, I simply do not approve of doing business with dictators when their record of human rights violations is as stark as the Castor brothers has been.

So I assume you would support us withdrawing from China and Vietnam and treat them like we've treated Cuba for the last 50 years?

We're not withdrawing from Cuba sir. We're coming to their rescue. I am against it and you are for it. I get that and you're conservative but in this case, presumably, too smart for the conservative "voice machine" whoever or whatever that is. Each nation has to be dealt with individually but this admin operates on a one policy fits all..propitiate the dictators of the world and turn a deaf ear on and ignore everyone else.

Stop dodging. You said you don't approve of doing business with dictators with deplorable human rights records. Evidently that isn't true.

Im not dodging. The topic is whether or not I support a policy that benefits the Castro brothers. I know too much about them from personal involvement with people who escaped from Cuba in the 60s to be in favor of it. Discussing Vietnam and/or China is a different thread. Start one if that is where you want to go here.

I'll continue it here. Because your reasoning is inconsistent. So helping a human-rights violating Vietnamese or Chinese dictatorship is perfectly acceptable but not for Cuba?

I simply do not see the relevance. Frankly, unless you can tell me exactly what those human rights violations are, Im operating at a disadvantage. I know what the Castor brothers were doing and continue to do so that has a bigger impact on my perspective.

Does Tianammen Square ring a bell? Do you honestly need verification of Chinese human rights violations?

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My way? Why do you make such a concerted effort to personalize everything? I dont have a way little buddy, I simply do not approve of doing business with dictators when their record of human rights violations is as stark as the Castor brothers has been.

So I assume you would support us withdrawing from China and Vietnam and treat them like we've treated Cuba for the last 50 years?

We're not withdrawing from Cuba sir. We're coming to their rescue. I am against it and you are for it. I get that and you're conservative but in this case, presumably, too smart for the conservative "voice machine" whoever or whatever that is. Each nation has to be dealt with individually but this admin operates on a one policy fits all..propitiate the dictators of the world and turn a deaf ear on and ignore everyone else.

Stop dodging. You said you don't approve of doing business with dictators with deplorable human rights records. Evidently that isn't true.

Im not dodging. The topic is whether or not I support a policy that benefits the Castro brothers. I know too much about them from personal involvement with people who escaped from Cuba in the 60s to be in favor of it. Discussing Vietnam and/or China is a different thread. Start one if that is where you want to go here.

I'll continue it here. Because your reasoning is inconsistent. So helping a human-rights violating Vietnamese or Chinese dictatorship is perfectly acceptable but not for Cuba?

I simply do not see the relevance. Frankly, unless you can tell me exactly what those human rights violations are, Im operating at a disadvantage. I know what the Castor brothers were doing and continue to do so that has a bigger impact on my perspective.

Does Tianammen Square ring a bell? Do you honestly need verification of Chinese human rights violations?

Oh sure, I remember that quite well. Its not about verification its about what are we doing to accommodate the violators. Let us not forget China is financing our inability to control our spending and thus helping US. There are many layers of truth that would need to be peeled back. By contrast, however, I dont see us rushing to China's assistance on anything except giving them a pass on global warming policy making.. Actually, it is them who are virtually baling us out us believe it or not. Our policy toward Cuba is actually rescuing them at a time when their primary supporters are unable to provide any assistance whatsoever.

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My way? Why do you make such a concerted effort to personalize everything? I dont have a way little buddy, I simply do not approve of doing business with dictators when their record of human rights violations is as stark as the Castor brothers has been.

So I assume you would support us withdrawing from China and Vietnam and treat them like we've treated Cuba for the last 50 years?

We're not withdrawing from Cuba sir. We're coming to their rescue. I am against it and you are for it. I get that and you're conservative but in this case, presumably, too smart for the conservative "voice machine" whoever or whatever that is. Each nation has to be dealt with individually but this admin operates on a one policy fits all..propitiate the dictators of the world and turn a deaf ear on and ignore everyone else.

Stop dodging. You said you don't approve of doing business with dictators with deplorable human rights records. Evidently that isn't true.

Im not dodging. The topic is whether or not I support a policy that benefits the Castro brothers. I know too much about them from personal involvement with people who escaped from Cuba in the 60s to be in favor of it. Discussing Vietnam and/or China is a different thread. Start one if that is where you want to go here.

Race:Sharpton as Cuba:Castro

:-\

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My way? Why do you make such a concerted effort to personalize everything? I dont have a way little buddy, I simply do not approve of doing business with dictators when their record of human rights violations is as stark as the Castor brothers has been.

So I assume you would support us withdrawing from China and Vietnam and treat them like we've treated Cuba for the last 50 years?

We're not withdrawing from Cuba sir. We're coming to their rescue. I am against it and you are for it. I get that and you're conservative but in this case, presumably, too smart for the conservative "voice machine" whoever or whatever that is. Each nation has to be dealt with individually but this admin operates on a one policy fits all..propitiate the dictators of the world and turn a deaf ear on and ignore everyone else.

Stop dodging. You said you don't approve of doing business with dictators with deplorable human rights records. Evidently that isn't true.

Im not dodging. The topic is whether or not I support a policy that benefits the Castro brothers. I know too much about them from personal involvement with people who escaped from Cuba in the 60s to be in favor of it. Discussing Vietnam and/or China is a different thread. Start one if that is where you want to go here.

I'll continue it here. Because your reasoning is inconsistent. So helping a human-rights violating Vietnamese or Chinese dictatorship is perfectly acceptable but not for Cuba?

I simply do not see the relevance. Frankly, unless you can tell me exactly what those human rights violations are, Im operating at a disadvantage. I know what the Castor brothers were doing and continue to do so that has a bigger impact on my perspective.

Does Tianammen Square ring a bell? Do you honestly need verification of Chinese human rights violations?

Oh sure, I remember that quite well. Its not about verification its about what are we doing to accommodate the violators. Let us not forget China is financing our inability to control our spending and thus helping US. There are many layers of truth that would need to be peeled back. By contrast, however, I dont see us rushing to China's assistance on anything except giving them a pass on global warming policy making.. Actually, it is them who are virtually baling us out us believe it or not. Our policy toward Cuba is actually rescuing them at a time when their primary supporters are unable to provide any assistance whatsoever.

Careful, Tex, he's trying to spit the hook! ;D

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Oh sure, I remember that quite well. Its not about verification its about what are we doing to accommodate the violators. Let us not forget China is financing our inability to control our spending and thus helping US. There are many layers of truth that would need to be peeled back. By contrast, however, I dont see us rushing to China's assistance on anything except giving them a pass on global warming policy making.. Actually, it is them who are virtually baling us out us believe it or not. Our policy toward Cuba is actually rescuing them at a time when their primary supporters are unable to provide any assistance whatsoever.

That's a lot of keystrokes to say nothing. The bottom line is, you're not really committed to the view that we shouldn't do business with dictators with terrible human rights records.

BTW, Vietnam also has a bad record on human rights. They are a totalitarian communist regime with all the typical behavior thereof. They aren't financing our profligate spending. We have diplomatic relations with and trade with them. Should we give them the Cuba treatment?

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Oh sure, I remember that quite well. Its not about verification its about what are we doing to accommodate the violators. Let us not forget China is financing our inability to control our spending and thus helping US. There are many layers of truth that would need to be peeled back. By contrast, however, I dont see us rushing to China's assistance on anything except giving them a pass on global warming policy making.. Actually, it is them who are virtually baling us out us believe it or not. Our policy toward Cuba is actually rescuing them at a time when their primary supporters are unable to provide any assistance whatsoever.

That's a lot of keystrokes to say nothing. The bottom line is, you're not really committed to the view that we shouldn't do business with dictators with terrible human rights records.

BTW, Vietnam also has a bad record on human rights. They are a totalitarian communist regime with all the typical behavior thereof. They aren't financing our profligate spending. We have diplomatic relations with and trade with them. Should we give them the Cuba treatment?

Are we rebuilding China or Vietnam's infrastructure? I guarantee you thats what its going to take to make Cuba a tourism destination. I understand you wish to prove I am either wrong or inconsistent simultaneously ignoring the personal aspect of my perspective. Ive said plenty but you call it nothing to you because your primary interest is proving your position to be superior. Again, I have no problem accepting you think its fine to accommodate the needs of a Cuban dictatorship because that is exactly what Obama is doing. Again, Vietnam and China really aren't relevant. You want to make them relevant to the Cuba issue for your own reasons but the reality is those are YOUR reasons and dont have anything to do with the topic of Cuba in this context. Apples and oranges and a real stretch at that

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Oh sure, I remember that quite well. Its not about verification its about what are we doing to accommodate the violators. Let us not forget China is financing our inability to control our spending and thus helping US. There are many layers of truth that would need to be peeled back. By contrast, however, I dont see us rushing to China's assistance on anything except giving them a pass on global warming policy making.. Actually, it is them who are virtually baling us out us believe it or not. Our policy toward Cuba is actually rescuing them at a time when their primary supporters are unable to provide any assistance whatsoever.

That's a lot of keystrokes to say nothing. The bottom line is, you're not really committed to the view that we shouldn't do business with dictators with terrible human rights records.

BTW, Vietnam also has a bad record on human rights. They are a totalitarian communist regime with all the typical behavior thereof. They aren't financing our profligate spending. We have diplomatic relations with and trade with them. Should we give them the Cuba treatment?

Are we rebuilding China or Vietnam's infrastructure? I guarantee you thats what its going to take to make Cuba a tourism destination. I understand you wish to prove I am either wrong or inconsistent simultaneously ignoring the personal aspect of my perspective. Ive said plenty but you call it nothing to you because your primary interest is proving your position to be superior. Again, I have no problem accepting you think its fine to accommodate the needs of a Cuban dictatorship because that is exactly what Obama is doing. Again, Vietnam and China really aren't relevant. You want to make them relevant to the Cuba issue for your own reasons but the reality is those are YOUR reasons and dont have anything to do with the topic of Cuba in this context. Apples and oranges and a real stretch at that

Yes, we have largely funded both countries economies.

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Are we rebuilding China or Vietnam's infrastructure? I guarantee you thats what its going to take to make Cuba a tourism destination. I understand you wish to prove I am either wrong or inconsistent simultaneously ignoring the personal aspect of my perspective. Ive said plenty but you call it nothing to you because your primary interest is proving your position to be superior. Again, I have no problem accepting you think its fine to accommodate the needs of a Cuban dictatorship because that is exactly what Obama is doing. Again, Vietnam and China really aren't relevant. You want to make them relevant to the Cuba issue for your own reasons but the reality is those are YOUR reasons and dont have anything to do with the topic of Cuba in this context. Apples and oranges and a real stretch at that

Your personal connections aren't relevant here. You are putting forth ostensibly objective criteria for why any raproachment with Cuba is a terrible idea. If what it really boils down to for you is some "me no likey" ax to grind, then just say so and we can move on with the discussion amongst those who have something pertinent to say. But Vietnam and China will continue to be brought up based on the reasoning you yourself have offered thus far. You've given zilch in terms of any criteria that would warrant separating them from this conversation.

And yes, as Tex said, we and others who trade with them have largely funded their economic development, not to mention China's military spending.

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Are we rebuilding China or Vietnam's infrastructure? I guarantee you thats what its going to take to make Cuba a tourism destination. I understand you wish to prove I am either wrong or inconsistent simultaneously ignoring the personal aspect of my perspective. Ive said plenty but you call it nothing to you because your primary interest is proving your position to be superior. Again, I have no problem accepting you think its fine to accommodate the needs of a Cuban dictatorship because that is exactly what Obama is doing. Again, Vietnam and China really aren't relevant. You want to make them relevant to the Cuba issue for your own reasons but the reality is those are YOUR reasons and dont have anything to do with the topic of Cuba in this context. Apples and oranges and a real stretch at that

Your personal connections aren't relevant here. You are putting forth ostensibly objective criteria for why any raproachment with Cuba is a terrible idea. If what it really boils down to for you is some "me no likey" ax to grind, then just say so and we can move on with the discussion amongst those who have something pertinent to say. But Vietnam and China will continue to be brought up based on the reasoning you yourself have offered thus far. You've given zilch in terms of any criteria that would warrant separating them from this conversation.

And yes, as Tex said, we and others who trade with them have largely funded their economic development, not to mention China's military spending.

When Cuba makes all their obligations right for all the American Corporations pigs will fly. We have NOT funded Chinas economy. That is simply false. We have traded with Vietnam but in the grand scheme of things I would hardly call the amount of trade we have with them as "funding" their economy. I also hardly see justification for dropping the sanctions on Cuba simply because we trade with other dictators. using that logic we can all justify bad decision by pointing to other bad decisions. The dynamics between the US and China is nothing like it is with Vietnam.

I do think the foreign policy leadership of this country is the worst it has been in my lifetime. I have no problem admitting that. I also have good reason to believe that Obama is either the worst negotiator of all time or he simply is comfortable caving into to dictators. You can move on anytime kemosabe but I dont see that happening as long as you think you can prove me wrong. Enjoy.

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Are we rebuilding China or Vietnam's infrastructure? I guarantee you thats what its going to take to make Cuba a tourism destination. I understand you wish to prove I am either wrong or inconsistent simultaneously ignoring the personal aspect of my perspective. Ive said plenty but you call it nothing to you because your primary interest is proving your position to be superior. Again, I have no problem accepting you think its fine to accommodate the needs of a Cuban dictatorship because that is exactly what Obama is doing. Again, Vietnam and China really aren't relevant. You want to make them relevant to the Cuba issue for your own reasons but the reality is those are YOUR reasons and dont have anything to do with the topic of Cuba in this context. Apples and oranges and a real stretch at that

Your personal connections aren't relevant here. You are putting forth ostensibly objective criteria for why any raproachment with Cuba is a terrible idea. If what it really boils down to for you is some "me no likey" ax to grind, then just say so and we can move on with the discussion amongst those who have something pertinent to say. But Vietnam and China will continue to be brought up based on the reasoning you yourself have offered thus far. You've given zilch in terms of any criteria that would warrant separating them from this conversation.

And yes, as Tex said, we and others who trade with them have largely funded their economic development, not to mention China's military spending.

When Cuba makes all their obligations right for all the American Corporations pigs will fly. We have NOT funded Chinas economy. That is simply false. We have traded with Vietnam but in the grand scheme of things I would hardly call the amount of trade we have with them as "funding" their economy. I also hardly see justification for dropping the sanctions on Cuba simply because we trade with other dictators. using that logic we can all justify bad decision by pointing to other bad decisions. The dynamics between the US and China is nothing like it is with Vietnam.

I do think the foreign policy leadership of this country is the worst it has been in my lifetime. I have no problem admitting that. I also have good reason to believe that Obama is either the worst negotiator of all time or he simply is comfortable caving into to dictators. You can move on anytime kemosabe but I dont see that happening as long as you think you can prove me wrong. Enjoy.

It's a big chunk:

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/bizchina/2014-02/19/content_17290565.htm

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One thing about Blue, once he commits to an error he sticks with it. Reason and logic be damned. :rolleyes:

The only difference between Cuba, China and Viet Nam in terms of policy is proximity and the large contingent of Cuban-Americans with political leverage. Fortunately, that political leverage is not what it used to be, so we can finally try a different - and more rationally consistent - approach.

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20 years after normalization with VN.

http://www.fresnobee...aw-vietnam.html

Interesting article.

The unexploded munitions problem is particularly poignant. Over 20,000 Vietnamese have been killed or maimed since the war.

http://legaciesofwar...-ordnances-uxo/

http://bangordailynews.com/2014/11/27/living/we-are-certainly-radicals-vietnam-veteran-from-deer-isle-explains-his-conversion-to-peacenik-protester/

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I could see this or at least some of it if we were getting something of substance in return. We gave the whole store away for nothing. It's a common theme in negotiations with this administration. They seem determined to make a deal just for the sake of getting a deal done. They are going to do the same thing with Iran. They won't open an embassy but Iran will keep their nuclear program intact without granting any concessions of any substance.

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