The Law and Grace Discussion

[aubfaninga 16]

What about when God told Adam not to eat fruit from the tree of life? Wouldn't that theoretically be the first law since his word is law and he held Adam accountable for it?

God told them that they could eat of any tree in the garden. But, if they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, not the tree of life, that they would die.

I'm sorry about the tree mix up but God said not to eat it or touch it so wouldn't that be the first law?

God never said "do not touch it", Eve added that one in. This story in Genesis mirrors the Law and Grace discussion.

The Tree of Life represents The New Covenant. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil represents the law or the Old Covenant.

As long as Adam stayed away from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, he was free and never fell under self condemnation. Once he ate of it, what happened? He realized how exposed and naked he was so he hid. He realized that he would never measure up to the God he followed.

So in answering your question, the entire tree was the law because it housed the knowledge of not only what was considered evil, but also what was considered "good".

Romans 7

"So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good."

The LAW is GODS WORD and it pointed to Yeshua who did no evil. Satan knows good but chooses evil.

Tree of life = Jesus

Tree of knowledge of good but choosing evil is Satan

Hebrews 10

"For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,"

2 Thessalonians 12

"For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness."

GOD said, "Thou shall not murder" Psalm 92:15 "To declare that the Lord is upright; He is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in Him."

GOD cannot lie...

Satan on the other hand

John 8

"Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

[aubfaninga 16]

Ok. Let's go back to the basics, since we are getting out of control.

Let me ask you a few questions.

And please don't post 400 verses in your answers.

1. Why was the law given to the Jewish people?

#1 The LAW given to bless his only begotten SON and to glorify his name (It worked by Jesus sinless life)

#2 The LAW was given because GOD promised he would make Abrahams descendants flourish but iniquity and transgression was close to wiping out all of Abraham's children.

Which leads to #3 It was a strict guardian to keep the Jews in line until the messiah came to lead us into all righteousness. We no longer keep the LAW because we have to. We keep the LAW because we love to!!!

Without the blood of messiah the LAW can only impose the death penalty because we all will sin. The blood of messiah washes our sin but does not tell us to go back to our sin nor does it abolish the LAW.

We now have FAITH in him and his WORD. If I put faith in his wisdom then who can stand against me?

Isaiah 66

For by fire and by His sword

The Lord will judge all flesh;

And the slain of the Lord shall be many.

“Those who sanctify themselves and purify themselves,

To go to the gardens

After an idol in the midst,

Eating swine’s flesh and the abomination and the mouse,

Shall be consumed together,” says the Lord.

“For I know their works and their thoughts.

[Weegle777 78]

What you referenced in the post about the tree of knowledge of good and evil is biblically incorrect. It is not the tree of the knowledge of good only, it is the tree of tge knowledge of good AND evil.

And the post after that couldn't be more incorrect.

[Weegle777 78]

Let me clarify this:

The law isn't evil. It is the perfect standard of God. It is holy and just.

Galatians 3:19-25

1.The law was given because of TRANSGRESSIONS.

2. It was given to reveal sin, and to show us how woefully inadequate we are to fulfill the requirements of this perfect standard.

3. It was given to show us how much we needed a savior, Jesus. God's perfect sacrifice given to fulfill what we couldn't ever live up to.

[aubfaninga 16]

What you referenced in the post about the tree of knowledge of good and evil is biblically incorrect. It is not the tree of the knowledge of good only, it is the tree of tge knowledge of good AND evil.

And the post after that couldn't be more incorrect.

So to do good is evil?

Isaiah 5

"Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;

Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness;

Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes,

And prudent in their own sight!"

How about this... Prove your doctrine by giving two witnesses outside the pen of Paul. Here is an example or four

Deuteronomy 19

"One witness is not enough to convict anyone accused of any crime or offense they may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses."

+

Matthew 18

"But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'"

Psalm 19

The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

+

James 1

"But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does."

Not hard at all

[aubfaninga 16]

Let me clarify this:

The law isn't evil. It is the perfect standard of God. It is holy and just.

Galatians 3:19-25

1.The law was given because of TRANSGRESSIONS.

2. It was given to reveal sin, and to show us how woefully inadequate we are to fulfill the requirements of this perfect standard.

3. It was given to show us how much we needed a savior, Jesus. God's perfect sacrifice given to fulfill what we couldn't ever live up to.

and I quote "The tree of the knowledge of good and evil represents the law or the Old Covenant"

This completely contradicts scripture and is a man made teaching.

Please read this whole chapter.... GOD knew that man would fail but he made provisions thru his son

Choose LIFE!!!

Deuteronomy 30

“Everything that I have mentioned will happen to you—both the blessings and the curses. And you will remember these words when the Lord your God sends you away to other nations. ² Then you and your descendants will turn back to the Lord your God. You will follow him with all your heart and completely obey all his commands that I have given you today. ³ Then the Lord your God will be kind to you. The Lord your God will make you free again! He will bring you back from the nations where he sent you. ⁴ Even if you were sent to the farthest parts of the earth, the Lord your God will gather you from there and bring you back. ⁵ The Lord your God will bring you into the land your ancestors had, and the land will become yours. He will do good to you, and you will have more than your ancestors had. You will have more people in your nation than they ever had. ⁶ The Lord your God will make you and your descendants want to obey him.^[a] Then you will love the Lord your God with all your heart. And you will live!

⁷ “Then the Lord your God will make all these bad things happen to your enemies, who hate you and cause you trouble. ⁸ And you will again obey the Lord. You will obey all his commands that I give you today. ⁹ The Lord your God will make you successful in everything you do. He will bless you with many children. He will bless your cows—they will have many calves. He will bless your fields—they will grow many good crops. He will be good to you. The Lord will again enjoy doing good for you, the same as he enjoyed doing good for your ancestors. ¹⁰ But you must do what the Lord your God tells you to do. You must obey his commands and follow the rules that are written in this Book of Teachings. You must obey the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Then these good things will happen to you.

Life or Death

¹¹ “This command that I give you today is not too hard for you. It is not a secret hidden in some far away land. ¹² This command is not in heaven so that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us and bring it to us, so that we can hear and do it?’ ¹³ This command is not on the other side of the sea so that you should say, ‘Who will go across the sea for us and bring it to us, so that we can hear it and do it?’ ¹⁴ No, the word is very near to you. It is in your mouth and in your heart. So you can obey it.

¹⁵ “Today I have given you a choice between life and death, success and disaster.^{[b] 16} I command you today to love the Lord your God. I command you to follow him and to obey his commands, laws, and rules. Then you will live, and your nation will grow larger. And the Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take for your own. ¹⁷ But if you turn away from your God and refuse to listen, if you are led away to worship and serve other gods, ¹⁸ you will be destroyed. I am warning you today, if you turn away from God, you will not live long in that land across the Jordan River that you are ready to enter and take for your own.

¹⁹ “Today I am giving you a choice of two ways. And I ask heaven and earth to be witnesses of your choice. You can choose life or death. The first choice will bring a blessing. The other choice will bring a curse. So choose life! Then you and your children will live. ²⁰ You must love the Lord your God and obey him. Never leave him, because he is your life. And he will give you a long life in the land that he, the Lord, promised to give to your ancestors—Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.”

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

I feel like I'm in a theology class at the PhD level

[Weegle777 78]

What you referenced in the post about the tree of knowledge of good and evil is biblically incorrect. It is not the tree of the knowledge of good only, it is the tree of tge knowledge of good AND evil.

And the post after that couldn't be more incorrect.

So to do good is evil?

Isaiah 5

"Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;

Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness;

Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes,

And prudent in their own sight!"

How about this... Prove your doctrine by giving two witnesses outside the pen of Paul. Here is an example or four

Deuteronomy 19

"One witness is not enough to convict anyone accused of any crime or offense they may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses."

+

Matthew 18

"But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'"

Psalm 19

The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

+

James 1

"But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does."

Not hard at all

You can't be this far off base. The tree is the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil. It represents a standard that reveals good and evil. Adam and Eve initially were sinless because there wasn't a standard given to them that dictated what sin was.

(Where there is no law, there is no transgression)

When Adam consciously chose to eat that fruit, his eyes were open to a standard, a knowledge of what he did was not good. He felt shame for the first time. He chose to live by law instead of Grace (Tree of Life).

[toddc 13,194]

The Jews that wondered in the desert were under Grace, as was Abraham. The law wasn't given until Sinai. God never intended the Jews to be under the harsh restraints of the law. The law has already been fulfilled by Jesus on the cross. He did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill(complete, satisfy the requirements of, finish, bring to an end.) the law. We are not bound by the law. We have no connection to it and we never have. If you are a gentile, you were never included in the giving of the law, the Jews were. Gentiles had no hope until Jesus.

Even God Himself said the the law was not good.

Hebrews 8:6-13

6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said:

"The days are coming, declares the Lord,

when I will make a new covenant

with the people of Israel

and with the people of Judah.

9 It will not be like the covenant

I made with their ancestors

when I took them by the hand

to lead them out of Egypt,

because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,

and I turned away from them,

declares the Lord.

10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel

after that time, declares the Lord.

I will put my laws in their minds

and write them on their hearts.

I will be their God,

and they will be my people.

11 No longer will they teach their neighbor,

or say to one another, 'Know the Lord,'

because they will all know me,

from the least of them to the greatest.

12 For I will forgive their wickedness

and will remember their sins no more."[c]

13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

Also, do you know that according to the Mosaic law, Jesus cannot be a high priest? He isn't of the tribe of Levi, so He is not able. This is not by accident. God did this so that the New Covenant would be just that New, and would have totally different standards from the Old Covenant that is now obsolete because of the New.

Jesus is the Great High Priest in the order of Melchizedeck, whom Abraham gave tithes to before the Levitical system was even set up with AAron as high priest. So Jesus is of an ever higher order of priest than Levi! See Hebrews

[Weegle777 78]

Abraham only gave a tithe (one time) to Melchizedek. Never says that he continued to tithe to him. But you are correct on the latter part.

[aubfaninga 16]

You can't be this far off base. The tree is the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil. It represents a standard that reveals good and evil. Adam and Eve initially were sinless because there wasn't a standard given to them that dictated what sin was.

(Where there is no law, there is no transgression)

When Adam consciously chose to eat that fruit, his eyes were open to a standard, a knowledge of what he did was not good. He felt shame for the first time. He chose to live by law instead of Grace (Tree of Life).

SMH and slapping my head.... LOL

Adam was sinless because he had faith in GOD and obeyed.

(You say where there is no law, there is no transgression) The command (LAW) was don't eat. Adam transgressed that one simple command.

You can't force your opinion into scripture especially if Romans stands against you in this.

Romans 5

12 Sin came into the world because of what one man did. And with sin came death. So this is why all people must die—because all people have sinned.

^>>>>>13 Sin was in the world before the Law of Moses. But God does not consider people guilty of sin if there is no law.

¹⁴ But from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, everyone had to die.

>>>>>Adam died because he sinned by not obeying God’s command. But even those who did not sin that same way had to die.

That one man, Adam, can be compared to Christ, the one who was coming in the future. ¹⁵ But God’s free gift is not like Adam’s sin. Many people died because of the sin of that one man. But the grace that people received from God was much greater. Many received God’s gift of life by the grace of this other man, Jesus Christ.

^>>>>>>16 After Adam sinned ONCE, he was judged guilty.

¹⁹ For as by one man’s >>>disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s >>>obedience many will be made righteous.

The LAW produced GRACE. They work hand in hand. But we can not keep on sinning so Grace will abound. GOD FORBID

[WarTim 3,456]

Let me clarify this:

The law isn't evil. It is the perfect standard of God. It is holy and just.

Galatians 3:19-25

1.The law was given because of TRANSGRESSIONS.

2. It was given to reveal sin, and to show us how woefully inadequate we are to fulfill the requirements of this perfect standard.

3. It was given to show us how much we needed a savior, Jesus. God's perfect sacrifice given to fulfill what we couldn't ever live up to.

This is the truth. Thanks for sharing

[aubfaninga 16]

PLEASE BE PATIENT AND READ THIS THRU. PLEASE!!!

Some confuse God’s grace with a distorted view of God’s mercy. They also assume that God’s mercy cancels out God’s justice. There is nothing “unfair” about God giving us His grace; but there is something infinitely merciful. How can an infinitely merciful God extend grace to the sinner and not violate His infinite justice? Through repentance.

Repentance is the place where justice and mercy kiss. Without justice, mercy becomes cruel. If the president of the United States, as an act of mercy, decided to pardon our prison population and loose them on society, the innocent would suffer as a result. However, if a wicked man is truly penitent and puts his faith in God, he can qualify for pardon because he ceases to be a threat to society. Though the penitent, formerly-wicked man does not deserve pardon, he can receive mercy without compromising justice. Hence, the criminal does nothing to earn his salvation; yet qualifies for mercy through genuine repentance.

While grace is not something we earn through good works, it is something we must qualify for through repentance.

People wrongly assume grace is exclusively for the undeserving. It is not. According to

>>>> Luke 2:40, Jesus grew in grace. <<<<

Under the above definition, we would have to assume that Jesus “growing in grace” as a child means He was sinful during His youth. This is total heresy and an increasingly common heresy in today’s culture. While this may seem to be splitting hairs, this small error could lead someone down the path to destruction.

The error assumes the operation of grace is the same as its initial impartation. It concludes that since receiving grace was effortless on our part, walking in grace after it’s received must be effortless as well. But receiving a free gift by doing nothing to EARN it does not automatically mean you do nothing to USE it!

Ephesians 2:8-9 tell us we are saved by grace and not by works; however verse 10 tells us that we are saved UNTO good works! Which means, we don’t do works to earn salvation, but once we are saved, by grace—we do good works! It’s not effortless!

The key difference is this: doing good works on your own apart from God will not save you; however, after you are saved, you do good works because now you are participating with God! Grace is what enables that participation. You still have responsibility. You still have effort. The difference is, you are united with Christ and He gives you the strength, a.k.a. grace, to do alongside of Him, what you could never do on your own.

THIS IS THE ONLY GOSPEL (aka good news) the scripture teaches. There is no other gospel!!!

Acts 3:19

"Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;

Acts 2:38

""Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

James 2

"But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?"

Rev 2:2

"I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:"

Rev 2:9

"“I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); "

Rev 3:1

""To the angel of the church in Sardis write: He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: 'I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. 'Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your works completed in the sight of My God.…"

Rev 3:8

"I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it"

Ezekiel 36

"For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God. I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses".

Acts 3:22

"For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you."

Deuteronomy 30

“Now it shall come to pass, when all these things come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind among all the nations where the Lord your God drives you, and you return to the Lord your God and obey His voice, according to all that I command you today, you and your children, with all your heart and with all your soul, that the Lord your God will bring you back from captivity, and have compassion on you, and gather you again from all the nations where the Lord your God has scattered you."

"“Also the Lord your God will put all these curses on your enemies and on those who hate you, who persecuted you. And you will again obey the voice of the Lord and do all His commandments which I command you today."

"“For this commandment which I command you today is not too mysterious for you, nor is it far off. It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend into heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it."

FAITH IN HIS WORD!!!

Romans 10

"For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.” But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) or, “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

It's the LAWS that govern and protect Yeshua and GODS children. If you want ears to hear and eyes to see then understand Jesus is Psalm 119!!!

Psalm 119 is the abc's of Yeshua's walk with his FATHER. Please read this one chapter. PSALM 119!!!

Matthew 7:21

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

[Weegle777 78]

The law only does one thing, it reveals sin. The law cannot produce Grace my friend.

Gal 2:16

know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

[Strychnine 1,802]

I grant that my opinion is likely not welcome here, but I'll offer it anyway. As a Deist, I have no theological contributions to make, but I do believe that Weegs' perspective is more consistent with what Jesus' message was. Faith in Christ is indeed not best defined by observing the law, but by observing the law in accordance with the greater law that Jesus gave you. Based on my own observations, God is not looking for pious followers, He is instead looking for men that have the proper heart.

[aubfaninga 16]

I grant that my opinion is likely not welcome here, but I'll offer it anyway. As a Deist, I have no theological contributions to make, but I do believe that Weegs' perspective is more consistent with what Jesus' message was. Faith in Christ is indeed not best defined by observing the law, but by observing the law in accordance with the greater law that Jesus gave you. Based on my own observations, God is not looking for pious followers, He is instead looking for men that have the proper heart.

Your opinion is very welcome and thank you for posting.

Jesus' message vs the "church" message (in which there is over 30000 different denominations)

How does one display a proper heart condition?

A child that constantly disrespects and disobeys his mothers instruction? or A child that respects his mothers wisdom and guidance and obeys? These are easy concepts to grasp.

Can you tell your wife you love her but constantly do everything she expresses she hates? Is true love confessing with your lips that you love her but then sleeping with another woman? "FAITH without works is dead" "Even demons simply believe in GOD"

Your assumption is fair because of "church" teachings but first you must give me examples of Jesus' teachings. You assume obedience to GODs LAW is against the teaching of Jesus because of man made tradition which contradict scripture. To say Jesus taught us to forsake GODs WORD ("think not that I come to abolish the LAW") one must first show me where Jesus contradicted the LAW. There is no verse recorded where Jesus did or implied someone to do something contrary to the LAW. He taught a greater understanding of the LAW thru spirit and truth.

THE LORD HAS BEEN TEACHING THIS FROM THE BEGINNING!!! If I follow Jesus he will keep me from sinning.

The LAW said thou shall not murder. Jesus said if you harbor hate you have murdered.

Genesis 4:6

"Then the Lord said to Cain,;Why are you angry? (if you hate) Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.;

The LAW said thou shall not commit adultery. Jesus said if you continue to lust you have commited adultery.

2 Samuel 11

"One evening David got up from his bed and walked around on the roof of the palace. From the roof he saw a woman bathing. The woman was very beautiful, and David sent someone to find out about her."

2 Samuel 12

" Why did you despise the word of the Lord by doing what is evil in his eyes? You struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and took his wife to be your own. You killed him with the sword of the Ammonites. Now, therefore, the sword will never depart from your house, because you despised me and took the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your own."

"Then David said to Nathan,;I have sinned against the Lord.;

Nathan replied,;The Lord has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. But because by doing this you have shown utter contempt for the Lord, the son born to you will die.<<(Jesus did die for our sins)

This greater emphasis of law that Jesus gave me was from the LAW.

Matthew 22

"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?; Jesus replied: ;Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.; This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it:;Love your neighbor as yourself.;All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.;

Deuteronomy 6:5

"And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might."

I will pause here because it leads to love. Jesus said, "If you love me you will keep my commandments"

How can someone express love if they despise and live contrary to his commandments?

1 John 5:3

" For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous"

Leviticus 19:18

""'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD."

Then Jesus commanded we are to Love just as he loved us.

The First Epistle of John reflects the theme of love being an imitation of Christ, with 1 John 4:19 stating: "We love, because he first loved us."

If we know and have FAITH that Jesus did not sin then this proverb is easy to figure out.

"WHAT WOULD JESUS DO???"

[aubfaninga 16]

1 John 2:4. “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”

The question that has created confusion for multitudes of Christians: If the works of the law cannot save a person, is it therefore necessary to keep the law? Apparently this was a burning issue in the early church, because Paul asked the same question in Romans 6:1. “Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?” In other words, does grace give us a license to disobey the law of God? His answer is: “God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?”. How interesting it is that Christians in this age of relativism can invent their own definitions that condone lawbreaking. The Bible says sin is violating the law which has been described as irrelevant and old-fashioned by many modern theologians. Don’t be deceived. Every one of those great moral precepts is just as timely and needful today as they were when God wrote them on the imperishable tables of stone. And nothing has ever happened to make them less binding than they were when God gave them. In fact, you will discover that Jesus came to magnify the law and to open up its spiritual application, making it more comprehensive than the legalistic Pharisees ever imagined. Under the distilling influence of Christ’s perfect life of obedience, we can see the spiritual details of law-keeping which are neither recognized nor made possible apart from Him.

God’s Law is a mirror. At this point we must be very careful to designate also what the law cannot do. Even though it points out sin, it has no power to save from sin. There is no justifying, cleansing grace in it. All the works of all the laws would not be sufficient to save a single soul. Why? For the simple reason that we are saved by grace through faith, as a free gift. “Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin” (Romans 3:20). Do not stumble over this crucial point. We cannot earn forgiveness by working hard to obey. No sinner can gain favor and acceptance with God because he keeps the law. The law was not made for the purpose of saving or justifying. It was made to show us our need of cleansing and to point us to the great source of cleansing, Jesus Christ, our Lord. The Bible speaks of the law as a mirror to show us what kind of persons we really are. “For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed” (James 1:23–25). It is obvious to all that a mirror cannot remove a spot from the face. Looking into the mirror all day, and even rubbing it over the face, will not provide any cleansing. Its work is to reveal the spot and to point the dirty one to the sink for actual cleansing. The law, in like manner, can only condemn the sinner by giving him knowledge of his condition and then pointing him to the cross for true cleansing. “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast” (Ephesians 2:8, 9). Paul further emphasizes this point in Galatians 2:16: “Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ … for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.” Right here we must consider one of the most fallacious propositions ever set forth relating to the law. Countless sincere Christians have accepted the idea that the Old Testament encompasses the dispensation of works and that the New Testament provides for a dispensation of grace.

Under this garbled plan people were saved by works in the Old Testament and by grace in the New Testament. This is simply not true. The Bible holds forth only one beautiful, perfect plan for anybody to be saved, and that is by grace through faith. Heaven will not be divided between those who got there by works and those who got there by faith. Every single soul among the redeemed will be a sinner saved by grace. Those who entered into salvation in the Old Testament were those who trusted the merits of the blood of Jesus Christ, and they demonstrated their faith by bringing a lamb and slaying it. They looked forward in faith to the atoning death of Jesus. We look back in faith to the same death and are saved in exactly the same way. Be very certain that the entire redeemed host throughout eternity will be singing the same song of deliverance, exalting the Lamb slain from the foundations of the world.

[Weegle777 78]

Again,

Gal 2:16

know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

[Weegle777 78]

Your last post:

God’s Law is a mirror. At this point we must be very careful to designate also what the law cannot do. Even though it points out sin, it has no power to save from sin. There is no justifying, cleansing grace in it.

But you said in an earlier post that the law produces grace.

[aubfaninga 16]

Again,

Gal 2:16

know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

So we are to forsake the LAW if your understanding is true? You can't build a doctrine on one verse when it contradicts other verses.

Romans 6:1

"What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be!"

Prove your doctrine by using two witnesses outside of Paul's writing. Please!!! It is a very simple request.

2 Peter 3:16

" just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction."

[Weegle777 78]

There are no contradictions in the Bible my friend.

[Weegle777 78]

It doesn't get any more clear than the verse I posted from Galatians.

[aubfaninga 16]

Your last post:

God’s Law is a mirror. At this point we must be very careful to designate also what the law cannot do. Even though it points out sin, it has no power to save from sin. There is no justifying, cleansing grace in it.

But you said in an earlier post that the law produces grace.

You are limiting his GRACE just to his mercy.

GODs Grace is shown in his character.

Just a few examples of how his GRACE is seen.

His knowledge is complete. This is called His omniscience.

His omnipotence.

His omnipresence.

His immutability.

His holiness.

His righteousness.

His sovereignty.

His love.

AND HIS MERCY!!!!

If GOD promised to bless if you obey his commandment (and he cannot lie) his GRACE is evident when he keeps his WORD.

If GOD promises to remove sin if you disobey (and he cannot lie) his GRACE is evident when he keeps his WORD.

Luke 2:40

"And the child (Jesus) grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him." (Jesus did not sin)

Here is the whole story this is leading to. Jesus was teaching at 12 years old using the scriptures as his doctrine. (hint: there was no NEW TESTAMENT WRITTEN)

Luke 2

"When Joseph and Mary had done everything required by the Law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee to their own town of Nazareth. And the child grew and became strong; he was filled with wisdom, and the grace of God was on him."

The Boy Jesus at the Temple

"Every year Jesus’ parents went to Jerusalem for the Festival of the Passover. When he was twelve years old, they went up to the festival, according to the custom. After the festival was over, while his parents were returning home, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem, but they were unaware of it. Thinking he was in their company, they traveled on for a day. Then they began looking for him among their relatives and friends. When they did not find him, they went back to Jerusalem to look for him. After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions.

>>>Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers.<<<

I PROMISE YOU HE WAS NOT TELLING PEOPLE TO FORSAKE MOSES!!!

Luke 16:31

"And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

He was giving understanding, wisdom, and explanation to what Moses and the prophets had said. (and no, at 12 years old he was not telling them he was the messiah)

[homersapien 11,362]

No offense, but for some reason I am reminded of the shoe / gourd schism in Life of Brian.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka9mfZbTFbk

(Thought this thread could afford a little comic levity. )

[Weegle777 78]

Gal 5:4

You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.