The Law and Grace Discussion

[aubfaninga 16]

It doesn't get any more clear than the verse I posted from Galatians.

It doesn't get any more clear for me and I 100% believe scripture cannot contradict itself.

I am justified by my FAITH in GOD and his atonement which was the blood of his only begotten son. That is the END of justification if one has FAITH. I don't pray for GOD to remove the curses of sin. I pray for GOD to remove the sin. The LAW is NOT SIN!!!

I express my FAITH in his WORD by living in it. My works is simply evidence and testimony of my FAITH and who I have FAITH in.

Satan and demons believe that GOD and Jesus are real but they refuse to live by his word. THEIR FAITH IS EVIDENT BY THEIR WORKS!!!

1 John 4:1

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world."

Jude 1

"And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day— just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire."

1 John 3:8

"Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil."

John 8:44

"You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

[aubfaninga 16]

Gal 5:4

You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

One last time....

I am showing and expressing my FAITH toward the one that justified me being alive in the first place and giving me the gift of eternal LIFE. I am only capable of doing this because of his GRACE. "Christ lives in me"

The justification for my life was death which I expressed in at my baptism. That was the end of any hope of being justified by the LAW. I laid down my life so that Jesus could create a NEW MAN.

Galatians 2

"But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we find ourselves also among the sinners, doesnt that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a lawbreaker.

For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"

It's not me any longer! It's Christ living in me!

Ezekiel 36:26

""Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.…"

"What's in your wallet?"

[aubfaninga 16]

Revelation 14:12

"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and have the faith of Jesus."

GOD cannot lie and scripture is for all to read.

1 John 2

"My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you >>>may not sin<<<. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous"

[aubfaninga 16]

Thank you again Weegle777 for so strongly standing by your faith in Jesus. He is our LORD and he alone can search the true intentions of our heart.

As a token of my respect to you I would like to share my favorite video here. Please find time to watch it. I recommend putting on head phones so you can absorb the feelings brought out. This video is my way of showing that at the end of the day our doctrines and thoughts are meaningless. IT WAS HIS LOVE FOR US THAT HAS SAVED US!!!

I am not ashamed to admit that as a 274 pound man this video brings me to tears everytime I watch it.

John 3:16 "THE STORY OF LOVE"

[aubfaninga 16]

No offense, but for some reason I am reminded of the shoe / gourd schism in Life of Brian.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka9mfZbTFbk

(Thought this thread could afford a little comic levity. ;D/> )

Oh my!

We could debate about a shoe, a gourd, whether Obama is a muslim, or how lower unemployment rates are bad. Same difference. It's all vanity in the end. LOL

My worst fear as a liberal.

FEAR THE SHOVEL !!!

[Weegle777 78]

I apologize my friend for being so ugly to you in that other thread. It took a great person on here in Strych to point that out and I appreciate him for it. Sometimes I get so caught up in trying to be "right" that I forget that we are brothers in Christ, not adversaries. God bless you and your family.

[aubfaninga 16]

I apologize my friend for being so ugly to you in that other thread. It took a great person on here in Strych to point that out and I appreciate him for it. Sometimes I get so caught up in trying to be "right" that I forget that we are brothers in Christ, not adversaries. God bless you and your family.

Only because of your apology that you offered will I let you know that you were forgiven before you asked. I never felt that I was wronged in anyway by you so your apology is heart warming. I not only understand your passion for your FAITH but I love it.

We have sharpened our swords as brothers without even a scratch or bruise to our flesh or spirit. WAR EAGLE!!!

I pray the Lord bless and keep your family.

I pray the Lord smile on your family and pour his grace abundantly over your home.

I pray the Lord keeps his hands over you and continues to give your family peace.

In the name of Yeshua I pray.

[homersapien 11,366]

No offense, but for some reason I am reminded of the shoe / gourd schism in Life of Brian.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka9mfZbTFbk

(Thought this thread could afford a little comic levity. ;D/> )

Oh my!

We could debate about a shoe, a gourd, whether Obama is a muslim, or how lower unemployment rates are bad. Same difference. It's all vanity in the end. LOL

My worst fear as a liberal.

FEAR THE SHOVEL !!!

Yep. The answer to life universe and everything is 42.

[icanthearyou 4,462]

If I may, I have one thought on this subject.

Christianity is about the perfect love of Christ in your heart. It is not about the word, or the law, in your head. I won't quote the Bible but rather a sappy 70's song, "light of the world shine on me, love is the answer"!

[WarTim 3,456]

Jesus Christ is the only answer.

[icanthearyou 4,462]

Jesus Christ is the only answer.

On this particular subject, I do not wish to get into an argument. However, I do not believe you can understand Christ, and His message, unless you understand His perfect love.

[WarTim 3,456]

We agree

[aubfaninga 16]

Jesus Christ is the only answer.

On this particular subject, I do not wish to get into an argument. However, I do not believe you can understand Christ, and His message, unless you understand His perfect love.

I don't disagree but again it comes back full circle. What is love? My only answer for this is to observe your family or marriage.

When my mother popped me on the butt for running in the parking lot it did not feel like love at the time.

When I constantly remind my children that drugs are bad I do so out of love.

We all tell are children do this or don't do that. We tell them don't touch and it is still from love.

We try to please our partners by doing things that make them feel love and try to abstain from things that they don't approve of.

You may honestly love your parents but if your father tries to set aside a day to just hang out but you keep putting it off to do other things that you love, is that showing love to your father?

The bible says... (discipline and instruction)

Hebrews 12:6 "FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES." It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?"

GOD has already shown how LOVE is expressed. ""If you love me, keep my commands."

Without getting into a long discussion the term translated "LAW" in the Old Testament is TORAH which means very simply direction, teaching, instruction, or doctrine. In the New Testament the word is written as Nomos and very clearly is the greek term for TORAH. The New Testament also has other terms for law used to separate TORAH from non divine guidelines.

At any rate, I feel that Paul was saying that when Jesus died we (really just Israel) were released from the binding Covenant of the TORAH as a contract. The TORAH was not destroyed but the contract was. Now if we guard his "instructions" close to our hearts we are doing so by FAITH alone.

Ex: You sign agreement to pay 1200 dollars to your dad over 7 months. After 4 months he tears up the contract and releases you from the debt. You then pay him anyway. Not because you had to but because you wanted to.

"But now we are discharged from the Torah, dead to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit" Romans 7:6

I could make an entire ministry using only Jesus and Love and be very successful (Joel Osteen and Jospeh Prince). BUT the prophets were hated. The early followers of Jesus were persecuted by Jews because they seemed too "gentile". They were then killed by Romans because they appeared too "Jewish" (Sabbath keeping etc...).

Here is the point that I am sure weegs can appreciate. There are few verses that keep me from getting drunk and lazy on love.

Matthew 7:13-14

"Enter through the narrow gate. Because] The gate is wide and the road is wide that leads to hell , and many people enter through that gate. But the gate is small and the road is narrow that leads to true life. Only a few people find that road."

Matthew 7:22

""Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

Acts 4:32 thru Acts 5:11 is very very sobering and has a way of opening eyes if one chooses to read with an open mind.

[aubfaninga 16]

Tell me about it, most Christians won't even kill someone they see working on a sunday, and when's the last time a woman was stoned to death for not being a virgin on her wedding night?

Also so many Christians today wear mixed cloth and shave their faces... crazy times we live in when Christians are OK with women speaking in church.

So much ignorance in just one post

[aubfaninga 16]

DK I have compassion for people. I don't hate gay people. I know it was clearly condemned by God. There are certain things that are clearly wrong and we are instructed to speak out against those actions and to have people turn away from then and return to being in the right relationship with God and Christ. We are not to be hateful toward any individual but still sin is sin.I don't wish to get in a long winded discussion but let me say this. We were warned about false prophets and apostasy is not a new phenomenon. The things that some Christians will accept as being ok is astounding. Some even are ok with abortion.

There in a single post are three of the things that bother me about the Abrahamic religions:

1. They claim to know the mind of God

2. They judge others

3. They are rigid in their beliefs

Homer you know I had to jump in on this one....

#1 Tigger only claimed to know the mind of the GOD of Israel on this subject.

#2 I judge others by the same standard that I judge myself.

Are you honestly going to tell me that you do not judge others??? Even weegle judges but he is adamant that he will not judge using the bible.

#3 You homer, are just as rigid in your beliefs as I am mine.

For the 3 points you brought up to bother you then you must first have judged them by your standard or belief. Apparently you must be pretty rigid in whatever standard you are judging by because these things "bother" you.

[homersapien 11,366]

DK I have compassion for people. I don't hate gay people. I know it was clearly condemned by God. There are certain things that are clearly wrong and we are instructed to speak out against those actions and to have people turn away from then and return to being in the right relationship with God and Christ. We are not to be hateful toward any individual but still sin is sin.I don't wish to get in a long winded discussion but let me say this. We were warned about false prophets and apostasy is not a new phenomenon. The things that some Christians will accept as being ok is astounding. Some even are ok with abortion.

There in a single post are three of the things that bother me about the Abrahamic religions:

1. They claim to know the mind of God

2. They judge others

3. They are rigid in their beliefs

Homer you know I had to jump in on this one....

#1 Tigger only claimed to know the mind of the GOD of Israel on this subject.

#2 I judge others by the same standard that I judge myself.

Are you honestly going to tell me that you do not judge others??? Even weegle judges but he is adamant that he will not judge using the bible.

#3 You homer, are just as rigid in your beliefs as I am mine.

For the 3 points you brought up to bother you then you must first have judged them by your standard or belief. Apparently you must be pretty rigid in whatever standard you are judging by because these things "bother" you.

#1 That seems moot to me.

#2 Good for you.

#3 Exactly what beliefs are you referring to?

And being "bothered" by people who "know" the mind of God and are willing to judge others based on that "knowledge" is not unreasonable, whatever standards I hold myself to.

[aubfaninga 16]

DK I have compassion for people. I don't hate gay people. I know it was clearly condemned by God. There are certain things that are clearly wrong and we are instructed to speak out against those actions and to have people turn away from then and return to being in the right relationship with God and Christ. We are not to be hateful toward any individual but still sin is sin.I don't wish to get in a long winded discussion but let me say this. We were warned about false prophets and apostasy is not a new phenomenon. The things that some Christians will accept as being ok is astounding. Some even are ok with abortion.

There in a single post are three of the things that bother me about the Abrahamic religions:

1. They claim to know the mind of God

2. They judge others

3. They are rigid in their beliefs

Homer you know I had to jump in on this one....

#1 Tigger only claimed to know the mind of the GOD of Israel on this subject.

#2 I judge others by the same standard that I judge myself.

Are you honestly going to tell me that you do not judge others??? Even weegle judges but he is adamant that he will not judge using the bible.

#3 You homer, are just as rigid in your beliefs as I am mine.

For the 3 points you brought up to bother you then you must first have judged them by your standard or belief. Apparently you must be pretty rigid in whatever standard you are judging by because these things "bother" you.

#1 That seems moot to me.

#2 Good for you.

#3 Exactly what beliefs are you referring to?

And being "bothered" by people who "know" the mind of God and are willing to judge others based on that "knowledge" is not unreasonable, whatever standards I hold myself to.

Thanks for clarifying that "judging" people is hardly a "sin" by most standards.

The only reason I posted was to clarify that the "Jesus" in the written Koine Greek gospels actually taught that his followers that are to judge both themselves and others whom they LOVE. The King James translations testifies to this as well. Any "Christian" that teaches we are not to "judge" is teaching a figure outside the written word of the bible.

Also anyone outside of religion who claims (false and empty claim in most cases) that they do not

"judge" is either...

A - deceiving themselves

or

B - completely lawless and morally bankrupt

[aubfaninga 16]

#3 Exactly what beliefs are you referring to?

Only the beliefs that you have openly expressed in this forum. (In which you are very rigid)

[DKW 86 7,419]

Thanks for clarifying that "judging" people is hardly a "sin" by most standards.

The only reason I posted was to clarify that the "Jesus" in the written Koine Greek gospels actually taught that his followers that are to judge both themselves and others whom they LOVE. The King James translations testifies to this as well. Any "Christian" that teaches we are not to "judge" is teaching a figure outside the written word of the bible.

Also anyone outside of religion who claims (false and empty claim in most cases) that they do not

"judge" is either...

A - deceiving themselves

or

B - completely lawless and morally bankrupt

Going back to what homer said:

1. They claim to know the mind of God

2. They judge others

3. They are rigid in their beliefs

"Koine Greek?" Really, so every other Christian is misinformed and only you (and your chosen few) are correctly informed? Let me get this straight God is an all powerful omnipotent being but cant seem to get his word out the rest of the world because He is too impotent and powerless? Really?

Matthew 7

Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

[aubfaninga 16]

Thanks for clarifying that "judging" people is hardly a "sin" by most standards.

The only reason I posted was to clarify that the "Jesus" in the written Koine Greek gospels actually taught that his followers that are to judge both themselves and others whom they LOVE. The King James translations testifies to this as well. Any "Christian" that teaches we are not to "judge" is teaching a figure outside the written word of the bible.

Also anyone outside of religion who claims (false and empty claim in most cases) that they do not

"judge" is either...

A - deceiving themselves

or

B - completely lawless and morally bankrupt

Going back to what homer said:

1. They claim to know the mind of God

2. They judge others

3. They are rigid in their beliefs

"Koine Greek?" Really, so every other Christian is misinformed and only you (and your chosen few) are correctly informed? Let me get this straight God is an all powerful omnipotent being but cant seem to get his word out the rest of the world because He is too impotent and powerless? Really?

Matthew 7

Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

Why is so convenient to leave out the very next verse?

"Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brothers eye."

The 5th verse of chapter 7 explains the purpose for the first 4 verses. He is commenting on how to judge, not forbidding it. He is condemning hypocritical judgment, in which the person judging does a poor job making judgments about his own life, but thinks that he is an expert at solving the same problems in other peoples lives. Its like a person who is constantly in financial trouble confidently telling another person how to make financial decisions. Jesus warns that such a person is inviting scrutiny in his own life on the same issue: Youre in a financial mess! Why should I listen to you? Jesus says that once a person is able to make judgments about his own life, then he is competent to take the speck out of someone elses eye. A person who learns from his financial mistakes and becomes a success is then in a good position to give financial advice to others. Or as in the AA program, alcoholics that kick the habit are able to help others with the same problem.

Try explaining these away...

Luke 17

"It is impossible that no offenses should come, but woe to him through whom they do come! It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones. Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you,saying, I repent, you shall forgive him.

(Following logic the sinner should be >>REBUKED<< seven times before being forgiven seven times)

1 Timothy 5

"Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses. Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear."

And then we have verses in Matthew 18....

"Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector."

Another time where he illustrated using judgement with a comparison to Matthew 5...

John 7

"Jesus answered, What I teach is not my own. My teaching comes from the one who sent me. People who really want to do what God wants will know that my teaching comes from God. They will know that this teaching is not my own. If I taught my own ideas, I would just be trying to get honor for myself. But if I am trying to bring honor to the one who sent me, I can be trusted. Anyone doing that is not going to lie. Moses gave you the law, right? But you dont obey that law. If you do, then why are you trying to kill me? The people answered, A demon is making you crazy! We are not trying to kill you. Jesus said to them, I did one miracle on a Sabbath day, and you were all surprised. But you obey the law Moses gave you about circumcision and sometimes you do it on a Sabbath day. (Really, Moses is not the one who gave you circumcision. It came from our ancestors who lived before Moses.) Yes, you often circumcise baby boys on a Sabbath day. This shows that someone can be circumcised on a Sabbath day to obey the Law of Moses. So why are you angry with me for healing a persons whole body on the Sabbath day?

>>> "Stop judging by the way things look. Be fair and judge by what is really right. <<<

!!!! YET ANOTHER DIRECT COMMANDMENT TO JUDGE !!!!

What judgement is "right" and "good"?

Matthew 5

"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

[aubfaninga 16]

"Koine Greek?" Really, so every other Christian is misinformed and only you (and your chosen few) are correctly informed? Let me get this straight God is an all powerful omnipotent being but cant seem to get his word out the rest of the world because He is too impotent and powerless? Really?[/background][/size][/font][/color][/b]

No I believe that GOD has already explained this fact with great detail.

1 Kings 18

"And he answered, I have not troubled Israel; but thou, and thy father's house, in that ye have forsaken the commandments of the Lord, and thou hast followed Baalim. Now therefore send, and gather to me all Israel unto mount Carmel, and the prophets of Baal four hundred and fifty, and the prophets of the groves four hundred, which eat at Jezebel's table. So Ahab sent unto all the children of Israel, and gathered the prophets together unto mount Carmel. And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the Lord be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word. Then said Elijah unto the people, I, even I only, remain a prophet of the Lord; but Baal's prophets are four hundred and fifty men."

James 4

"You don’t get what you want because you don’t ask God. Or when you ask, you don’t receive anything, because the reason you ask is wrong. You only want to use it for your own pleasure. You people are not faithful to God! You should know that loving what the world has is the same as hating God. So anyone who wants to be friends with this evil world becomes God’s enemy. 5 Do you think the Scriptures mean nothing? The Scriptures say, “The Spirit God made to live in us wants us only for himself.” But the kindness God shows is greater. As the Scripture says, “God is against the proud, but he is kind to the humble.” So give yourselves to God. Stand against the devil, and he will run away from you. Come near to God and he will come near to you. You are sinners, so clean sin out of your lives. You are trying to follow God and the world at the same time."

It's hard to see the light when you are constantly at enmity with it.

Luke 16

"But Abraham said to him, If your brothers won’t listen to Moses and the prophets, they won’t listen to someone who comes back from the dead."

John 5

"And the Father who sent me has given proof about me himself. But you have never heard his voice. You have never seen what he looks like. The Father’s teaching does not live in you, because you don’t believe in the one the Father sent. You carefully study the Scriptures. You think that they give you eternal life. These same Scriptures tell about me! But you refuse to come to me to have that life.

“I don’t want praise from you or any other human. But I know you—I know that you have no love for God. I have come from my Father and speak for him, but you don’t accept me. But when other people come speaking only for themselves, you accept them. You like to have praise from each other. But you never try to get the praise that comes from the only God. So how can you believe? Don’t think that I will be the one to stand before the Father and accuse you. Moses is the one to accuse you. And he is the one you hoped would save you. If you really believed Moses, you would believe me, because he wrote about me.

>>>>>>> But you don’t believe what he (Moses) wrote, so you can’t believe what I say.” <<<<<<<<

[DKW 86 7,419]

We will take this off forum if you wish.

[aubfaninga 16]

We will take this off forum if you wish.

We can if you wish but I find it amusing to see so many anti-judging posts only to read umpteen million posts made from judgment.

You can PM me and explain to me these chapters in your own words. Maybe you can explain the contradiction in teachings that you have proposed.

1 Corinthians 5 and 6

[DKW 86 7,419]

"Koine Greek?" Really, so every other Christian is misinformed and only you (and your chosen few) are correctly informed? Let me get this straight God is an all powerful omnipotent being but cant seem to get his word out the rest of the world because He is too impotent and powerless? Really?[/background][/size][/font][/color][/b]

No I believe that GOD has already explained this fact with great detail.

1 Kings 18

"And he answered, I have not troubled Israel; but thou, and thy father's house, in that ye have forsaken the commandments of the Lord, and thou hast followed Baalim. Now therefore send, and gather to me all Israel unto mount Carmel, and the prophets of Baal four hundred and fifty, and the prophets of the groves four hundred, which eat at Jezebel's table. So Ahab sent unto all the children of Israel, and gathered the prophets together unto mount Carmel. And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the Lord be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word. Then said Elijah unto the people, I, even I only, remain a prophet of the Lord; but Baal's prophets are four hundred and fifty men."

James 4

"You don't get what you want because you don't ask God. Or when you ask, you don't receive anything, because the reason you ask is wrong. You only want to use it for your own pleasure. You people are not faithful to God! You should know that loving what the world has is the same as hating God. So anyone who wants to be friends with this evil world becomes God's enemy. 5 Do you think the Scriptures mean nothing? The Scriptures say, "The Spirit God made to live in us wants us only for himself." But the kindness God shows is greater. As the Scripture says, "God is against the proud, but he is kind to the humble." So give yourselves to God. Stand against the devil, and he will run away from you. Come near to God and he will come near to you. You are sinners, so clean sin out of your lives. You are trying to follow God and the world at the same time."

It's hard to see the light when you are constantly at enmity with it.

Luke 16

"But Abraham said to him, If your brothers won't listen to Moses and the prophets, they won't listen to someone who comes back from the dead."

John 5

"And the Father who sent me has given proof about me himself. But you have never heard his voice. You have never seen what he looks like. The Father's teaching does not live in you, because you don't believe in the one the Father sent. You carefully study the Scriptures. You think that they give you eternal life. These same Scriptures tell about me! But you refuse to come to me to have that life.

"I don't want praise from you or any other human. But I know you—I know that you have no love for God. I have come from my Father and speak for him, but you don't accept me. But when other people come speaking only for themselves, you accept them. You like to have praise from each other. But you never try to get the praise that comes from the only God. So how can you believe? Don't think that I will be the one to stand before the Father and accuse you. Moses is the one to accuse you. And he is the one you hoped would save you. If you really believed Moses, you would believe me, because he wrote about me.

>>>>>>> But you don't believe what he (Moses) wrote, so you can't believe what I say." <<<<<<<<

You do realize you have not quoted the first verse dealing with a church age believer right? You have managed to quote verses meant for everyone but the church.

2 Timothy 2:15

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed,rightly dividing the word of truth.

[Mims44 1,867]

"Koine Greek?" Really, so every other Christian is misinformed and only you (and your chosen few) are correctly informed? Let me get this straight God is an all powerful omnipotent being but cant seem to get his word out the rest of the world because He is too impotent and powerless? Really?[/background][/size][/font][/color][/b]

No I believe that GOD has already explained this fact with great detail.

1 Kings 18

"And he answered, I have not troubled Israel; but thou, and thy father's house, in that ye have forsaken the commandments of the Lord, and thou hast followed Baalim. Now therefore send, and gather to me all Israel unto mount Carmel, and the prophets of Baal four hundred and fifty, and the prophets of the groves four hundred, which eat at Jezebel's table. So Ahab sent unto all the children of Israel, and gathered the prophets together unto mount Carmel. And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the Lord be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word. Then said Elijah unto the people, I, even I only, remain a prophet of the Lord; but Baal's prophets are four hundred and fifty men."

James 4

"You don't get what you want because you don't ask God. Or when you ask, you don't receive anything, because the reason you ask is wrong. You only want to use it for your own pleasure. You people are not faithful to God! You should know that loving what the world has is the same as hating God. So anyone who wants to be friends with this evil world becomes God's enemy. 5 Do you think the Scriptures mean nothing? The Scriptures say, "The Spirit God made to live in us wants us only for himself." But the kindness God shows is greater. As the Scripture says, "God is against the proud, but he is kind to the humble." So give yourselves to God. Stand against the devil, and he will run away from you. Come near to God and he will come near to you. You are sinners, so clean sin out of your lives. You are trying to follow God and the world at the same time."

It's hard to see the light when you are constantly at enmity with it.

Luke 16

"But Abraham said to him, If your brothers won't listen to Moses and the prophets, they won't listen to someone who comes back from the dead."

John 5

"And the Father who sent me has given proof about me himself. But you have never heard his voice. You have never seen what he looks like. The Father's teaching does not live in you, because you don't believe in the one the Father sent. You carefully study the Scriptures. You think that they give you eternal life. These same Scriptures tell about me! But you refuse to come to me to have that life.

"I don't want praise from you or any other human. But I know you—I know that you have no love for God. I have come from my Father and speak for him, but you don't accept me. But when other people come speaking only for themselves, you accept them. You like to have praise from each other. But you never try to get the praise that comes from the only God. So how can you believe? Don't think that I will be the one to stand before the Father and accuse you. Moses is the one to accuse you. And he is the one you hoped would save you. If you really believed Moses, you would believe me, because he wrote about me.

>>>>>>> But you don't believe what he (Moses) wrote, so you can't believe what I say." <<<<<<<<

You do realize you have not quoted the first verse dealing with a church age believer right? You have managed to quote verses meant for everyone but the church.

2 Timothy 2:15

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed,rightly dividing the word of truth.

Moses? Might wanna brush up on that JEDP theory:)