The Law and Grace Discussion

[Weegle777 78]

Aufaninga, you have this so wrong on judging, it's sad. He wasn't telling us "how" to judge people. Are you serious with this?

[DKW 86 7,419]

Aufaninga, you have this so wrong on judging, it's sad. He wasn't telling us "how" to judge people. Are you serious with this?

Aubfaninga, Just for fun, what church do you attend?

[aubfaninga 16]

Aufaninga, you have this so wrong on judging, it's sad. He wasn't telling us "how" to judge people. Are you serious with this?

Aubfaninga, Just for fun, what church do you attend?

I am glad you asked though I am afraid that you may have asked for a denomination or congregation to help in your judgment of me.

We have a sabbath gathering (asseymbly) of about 6 regular people outside of my family. On Friday nights my family participates in an online gathering of hundreds of people from around the world. No fancy buildings, just like believers worshipping the best we no how while learning the truth of his word.

Most Sundays are spent at the church of the forgotten, cooking and providing for needs of people in downtown Columbus mainly around the riverwalk areas. I can't give you the exact numbers for that church but I pray everyday that it decreases by the next Sunday.

[aubfaninga 16]

Aufaninga, you have this so wrong on judging, it's sad. He wasn't telling us "how" to judge people. Are you serious with this?

Very serious weegs. What would you do if you saw an adult trying to steal from your house? Would you judge?

I would judge the evil being committed and make the sin known. Rebuke first without condemnation and forgive later if earnestly asked.

The word translated here in it's exhausted form...

decree, determine, judge

Properly, to distinguish, i.e. Decide (mentally or judicially); by implication, to try, condemn, punish -- avenge, conclude, condemn, damn, decree, determine, esteem, judge, go to (sue at the) law, ordain, call in question, sentence to etc....

Using the totality of scripture so that they agree and do not contradict each other this is how I understand Matthew 7.

Matthew 7:1 Do not condemn, punish, avenge, or damn someone for any sin so that you will not be met with the same measure of judgment for your sin.

2 For just as you criticize and condemn others, you will be criticized and condemned, and in accordance with the measure you deal out to others, it will be dealt out again to you.

3-5 Don't be hypocritical in your judgment. Don't point out sins of others just to lift yourself up. Judge with truth, mercy, and love. Don't just notice the small piece of dust that is in your friend’s eye, while ignoring the big piece of wood that is in your own? Why do you say to your friend, ‘Let me take that piece of dust out of your eye’? Look at yourself first! You still have that big piece of wood in your own eye. Don't be a hypocrite! First, take the wood out of your own eye. Then you will see clearly to get the dust out of your friend’s eye.

This piggy backs off these verses...

Luke 6

"“Don’t judge others, and God will not judge you. Don’t condemn others, and you will not be condemned. Forgive others, and you will be forgiven. Give to others, and you will receive. You will be given much. It will be poured into your hands—more than you can hold. You will be given so much that it will spill into your lap. The way you give to others is the way God will give to you.” Jesus told them this story: “Can a blind man lead another blind man? No. Both of them will fall into a ditch. Students are not better than their teacher. But when they have been fully taught, they will be like their teacher."

Jesus never condemned the sinners but he was able to judge good from evil which is exactly why he was TEMPTED in all things but never sinned.

He did not condemn the adulteress but he did share his judgment.

John 8

"When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I >>> condemn <<< thee: go, and sin no more."

I am not alone in this reasoning.

Judge not? The "worlds" favorite scripture

[Weegle777 78]

Just curious, aufaninga, you have a gathering on Friday night, a worship service on Saturday, and serve others on Sunday correct?

[aubfaninga 16]

"Koine Greek?" Really, so every other Christian is misinformed and only you (and your chosen few) are correctly informed? Let me get this straight God is an all powerful omnipotent being but cant seem to get his word out the rest of the world because He is too impotent and powerless? Really?[/background][/size][/font][/color][/b]

No I believe that GOD has already explained this fact with great detail.

1 Kings 18

"And he answered, I have not troubled Israel; but thou, and thy father's house, in that ye have forsaken the commandments of the Lord, and thou hast followed Baalim. Now therefore send, and gather to me all Israel unto mount Carmel, and the prophets of Baal four hundred and fifty, and the prophets of the groves four hundred, which eat at Jezebel's table. So Ahab sent unto all the children of Israel, and gathered the prophets together unto mount Carmel. And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the Lord be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word. Then said Elijah unto the people, I, even I only, remain a prophet of the Lord; but Baal's prophets are four hundred and fifty men."

James 4

"You don't get what you want because you don't ask God. Or when you ask, you don't receive anything, because the reason you ask is wrong. You only want to use it for your own pleasure. You people are not faithful to God! You should know that loving what the world has is the same as hating God. So anyone who wants to be friends with this evil world becomes God's enemy. 5 Do you think the Scriptures mean nothing? The Scriptures say, "The Spirit God made to live in us wants us only for himself." But the kindness God shows is greater. As the Scripture says, "God is against the proud, but he is kind to the humble." So give yourselves to God. Stand against the devil, and he will run away from you. Come near to God and he will come near to you. You are sinners, so clean sin out of your lives. You are trying to follow God and the world at the same time."

It's hard to see the light when you are constantly at enmity with it.

Luke 16

"But Abraham said to him, If your brothers won't listen to Moses and the prophets, they won't listen to someone who comes back from the dead."

John 5

"And the Father who sent me has given proof about me himself. But you have never heard his voice. You have never seen what he looks like. The Father's teaching does not live in you, because you don't believe in the one the Father sent. You carefully study the Scriptures. You think that they give you eternal life. These same Scriptures tell about me! But you refuse to come to me to have that life.

"I don't want praise from you or any other human. But I know you—I know that you have no love for God. I have come from my Father and speak for him, but you don't accept me. But when other people come speaking only for themselves, you accept them. You like to have praise from each other. But you never try to get the praise that comes from the only God. So how can you believe? Don't think that I will be the one to stand before the Father and accuse you. Moses is the one to accuse you. And he is the one you hoped would save you. If you really believed Moses, you would believe me, because he wrote about me.

>>>>>>> But you don't believe what he (Moses) wrote, so you can't believe what I say." <<<<<<<<

You do realize you have not quoted the first verse dealing with a church age believer right? You have managed to quote verses meant for everyone but the church.

2 Timothy 2:15

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed,rightly dividing the word of truth.

If you see dividing as cutting out pieces of the WORD of GOD then no thank you. There is only one "church" and it was at the mountain with Moses just as it looked at Jesus.

Acts 7

37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.

³⁸ This is he, that was >>>in the church in the wilderness<<< with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:....

39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt....

⁵¹ Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

⁵² Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

⁵³ Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

⁵⁴ When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

Zechariah is a very Messiah-centered or Christ-centered book, and the over-arching theme of the book is embodied in the name of the prophet Zechariah. That name means, "The Lord remembers." God never forgets His promises, and that is the theme of the book.

I want to bring to your attention the key to interpreting the book. How you interpret this book - in fact, how you interpret the entire Bible in the church today - depends on how you view a particular New Testament passage. That passage is a familiar one, 2nd Timothy 2:15. It says, "Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of truth."

I want to focus your attention for a moment on that last phrase, "rightly dividing the Word of truth." That's the way the phrase is translated in most Bibles. A few translations have it as "rightly handling" or "correctly handling" the Word of truth. There are two views of this particular phrase.

Two Views of "Rightly Dividing"

One is the dispensationalist view. That view says that "rightly dividing" means, literally, dividing up God's Word - dividing up as in "cutting up." Let me quote a dispensationalist spokesman who comments on this verse:

"The Bible student is to very carefully cut and divide the Word of God in order to understand it aright. As an illustration of this, consider the dissection of the human body... In much the same way, when we study God's Word we must carefully cut and dissect the Word of truth... May the God of truth enable us to carefully and rightly dissect His precious Word..."

The result of this view is that many dispensationalists teach a division between what they see as the Jewish portions and the Church portions of the Word of God. And on that basis, classic dispensationalism postulates separate programs for Israel and the Gentile church, extending out into eternity - one group of people in the New Heaven, the other group of people on the New Earth. There is some degree of disagreement among dispensationalists about which group will be where for eternity. And there is also significant disagreement among them about where to "cut and divide" the Bible between Jewish parts and Church parts, and there is significant disagreement among them about the number of dispensations, where they begin and end, whether or not they overlap, and so on.

One Covenant theology!!!

One covenant theology view in general says that "rightly dividing" in 2nd Timothy 2:15 simply means "accurately teaching" God's Word. As a result, in contrast to the dispensationalist view, what I'm calling the covenant theology view teaches that there is one program of God, encompassing both Jew and Gentile, beginning before the foundation of the world and extending out into eternity - and that we will all be together in the New Heavens and New Earth. And it says that God's plan is manifested in many covenants but is brought into ONE by Yeshua. One unified and uninterupted plan of redemption.

Which Does Scripture Support?

Now these are two polar opposite points of view. One says that "rightly dividing" means "cutting up" and the other says it means "accurately teaching" a unified whole. The question is, which one does Scripture support? And the answer to that question is a key not only to how you interpret the book of Zechariah. It is a key to how you interpret all the prophetic books and passages throughout the Bible - indeed, how you interpret the entire Word of God.

The key to evaluating the two views is to look at the original language of 2nd Timothy 2:15. And this is what we find. The word that is translated "rightly dividing" in the Old and New King James versions, and in several others, is a single word in the Greek. It is a form of the Greek verb orthotomeo. This is a very interesting word.

In New Testament times, orthotomeo was primarily a civil engineering term. It was used, for example, as a road building term. The idea of the word was to cut straight, or to guide on a straight path. The idea is to cut a roadway in a straight manner, so that people who will travel over that road can arrive at their destination directly, without deviation. Orthotomeo was also used as a mining term. It meant to drill a straight mine shaft so that the miners can get quickly and safely to the "mother lode."

There is another word in Greek, katatomeo, which means "to cut into sections." But that is not the word that the Apostle Paul, under divine inspiration, uses here in 2nd Timothy 2:15. Paul is not talking about "rightly dividing" in terms of dissecting the Word of God, or cutting it into sections based on Jew and Gentile, or Israel and Church, or any other criterion. It's interesting that the Apostle Paul does use that other word - katatomeo, cutting up - in Philippians 3:2, where he says, literally, "beware of those who would divide you up" - in other words, beware of those who would try to make a difference among believers between Jews and Gentiles.

So what is the proper meaning of orthotomeo - "rightly dividing" the Word of truth? What is intended is not the dividing of Scripture, not cutting it up, but teaching Scripture accurately, as a single, unified whole, without being turned aside by false teaching or man-made agendas.

Applying the Principle

Now, how does that apply to the book of Zechariah in particular, to Bible prophecy in general, and to the Word of God as a whole? It tells us that faithful practice of orthotomeo in the handling of Scripture demonstrates that God's Word is a glorious whole from beginning to end. It reveals to us one, single, unified and eternal plan of redemption - not two separate, never-the-two-shall-meet plans for Israel and the Church. We dare not employ the theological equivalent of a pathologist's scalpel to carve up God's living Word.

Applying the orthotomeo principle also tells us, in relation to Zechariah and the rest of Bible prophecy, that God is not finished with ethnic Israel. Romans chapters nine through eleven also make that clear. Those chapters are, in fact, both doctrinal and prophetic. The time of Israel's full in-gathering (the time in which mass numbers of Jews will be converted to Christ) is yet to come, and it is part of His unified plan to call out and redeem a people for Himself from among every tribe, nation, and tongue on earth.

[aubfaninga 16]

#3 Exactly what beliefs are you referring to?

Only the beliefs that you have openly expressed in this forum. (In which you are very rigid)

Can you be more specific? I mostly express opinions on this forum, not my beliefs. I am curious as to what you are referring to.

Do you believe that homosexuality is perfectly natural with no negative implications whatsoever?

[aubfaninga 16]

Just curious, aufaninga, you have a gathering on Friday night, a worship service on Saturday, and serve others on Sunday correct?

Most Friday nights my house tries to join an online gathering of like believers just to discuss scripture and everyday life. Our FAITH is small in concentrated numbers so we use the internet to enlarge our family of believers in Yeshua. Just comforting and uplifting to see we are not alone.

Most Saturdays we have a group of local people that assemble together for fellowship. Our group is small but we do have visitors from other denominations. Last year during, "unleavened bread", we had Jehovah Witness, 7th day Advents, RCOG, and 3 Baptists all under one roof for the Sabbath leading into Resurrection Sunday (or first fruits). It appears we may have more this year as some are tired of bunnies and died eggs and want to talk about Yeshua and the prophetic calendar found in GODS word.

Sunday is usually spent trying to give some of our free time to the homeless in any way we can.

I speak as my family being one. I work a lot of Fridays and Sundays because I do everything in my power to be off on Saturdays. If I am absent my wife is there for me and vice versa.

[homersapien 11,357]

#3 Exactly what beliefs are you referring to?

Only the beliefs that you have openly expressed in this forum. (In which you are very rigid)

BS. To say an agnostic is "very rigid" in their beliefs is a paradox.

[homersapien 11,357]

#3 Exactly what beliefs are you referring to?

Only the beliefs that you have openly expressed in this forum. (In which you are very rigid)

Can you be more specific? I mostly express opinions on this forum, not my beliefs. I am curious as to what you are referring to.

Do you believe that homosexuality is perfectly natural with no negative implications whatsoever?

Of course it's perfectly natural. Whatever negative implications that occur are derived from the society the homosexual dwells in.

[Weegle777 78]

Just curious, aufaninga, you have a gathering on Friday night, a worship service on Saturday, and serve others on Sunday correct?

Most Friday nights my house tries to join an online gathering of like believers just to discuss scripture and everyday life. Our FAITH is small in concentrated numbers so we use the internet to enlarge our family of believers in Yeshua. Just comforting and uplifting to see we are not alone.

Most Saturdays we have a group of local people that assemble together for fellowship. Our group is small but we do have visitors from other denominations. Last year during, "unleavened bread", we had Jehovah Witness, 7th day Advents, RCOG, and 3 Baptists all under one roof for the Sabbath leading into Resurrection Sunday (or first fruits). It appears we may have more this year as some are tired of bunnies and died eggs and want to talk about Yeshua and the prophetic calendar found in GODS word.

Sunday is usually spent trying to give some of our free time to the homeless in any way we can.

I speak as my family being one. I work a lot of Fridays and Sundays because I do everything in my power to be off on Saturdays. If I am absent my wife is there for me and vice versa.

Are you an Adventist, or follow Judaism?

[DKW 86 7,419]

So, i am guessing SDA then by the way you tap danced around the Sabbath day?

How do you reconcile Judaism doing the sacrifice with being saved by Grace thru Christ. Those are two fundamentally opposed views of salvation.

Or are you part of the Messianic-Judaism Movement?

[aubfaninga 16]

So, i am guessing SDA then by the way you tap danced around the Sabbath day?

How do you reconcile Judaism doing the sacrifice with being saved by Grace thru Christ. Those are two fundamentally opposed views of salvation.

Or are you part of the Messianic-Judaism Movement?

Not SDA as I feel Ellen White was a false prophet but I do not hold that against the denomination as a whole. Wonderful and delightful people with a zeal for truth.

Why would I reconcile anything "Judaism" when I stand in direct opposition to them? They believe that the Oral Torah and the Rabbis trump the written WORD. Jesus taught otherwise and I do too which leads into the Sabbath topic you brought up.

Jesus raised this question to the religious people of his day just I do most religious people of my day.

"Why do ye also transgress the commandment (4th Commandment) of God by your tradition?

Where have I ever tap danced around any Sabbath conversation? The Sabbath day is testified and witnessed by Moses, the prophets, the Gospel, and the book of ACTS which is testimony after the time of Jesus on this earth. The Catholic church has even preserved which day was considered the Sabbath by Jesus and his first disciples. There is no debate left. You either put faith in scripture or man made tradition concerning the Sabbath.

Jesus and Revelations testifies that people will still know the Sabbath Day during the last days.

Matthew 24:20

"But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:"

Revelations 12:17

"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." (BOTH THE COMMANDMENTS AND TESTIMONY)

You nor anyone else can take away the blessing set aside for remembering the Sabbath DAY out of a 7 day week.

Isaiah 56

The Lord said these things, Be fair to all people. Do what is right, because soon my salvation will come to you. My goodness will soon be shown to the whole world. I will bless those who refuse to do wrong and who obey the law about the Sabbath.

Some foreigners will choose to follow the Lord. They should not say, The Lord will not really accept me like the rest of his people.

A eunuch should not say, I am only a dry piece of wood. I cannot have any children. They should not say that because the Lord says, Some eunuchs obey the laws about the Sabbath. They choose to do what I want, and they follow my agreement. So I will put a memorial stone in my Temple for them. Their name will be remembered in my city! Yes, I will give those eunuchs something better than sons and daughters. I will give them a name that will last forever! They will not be cut off from my people.

Some foreigners have chosen to follow the Lord. They do this so that they can serve him and love his name and be his servants. They keep the Sabbath as a special day of worship , and they will continue to follow closely my agreement. So I will bring them to my holy mountain and make them happy in my house of prayer. The offerings and sacrifices they give me will please me , because my Temple will be called a house of prayer for all nations.

The Lord God said these things.

[DKW 86 7,419]

So, i am guessing SDA then by the way you tap danced around the Sabbath day?

How do you reconcile Judaism doing the sacrifice with being saved by Grace thru Christ. Those are two fundamentally opposed views of salvation.

Or are you part of the Messianic-Judaism Movement?

Not SDA as I feel Ellen White was a false prophet but I do not hold that against the denomination as a whole. Wonderful and delightful people with a zeal for truth.

Why would I reconcile anything "Judaism" when I stand in direct opposition to them? They believe that the Oral Torah and the Rabbis trump the written WORD. Jesus taught otherwise and I do too which leads into the Sabbath topic you brought up.

Jesus raised this question to the religious people of his day just I do most religious people of my day.

"Why do ye also transgress the commandment (4th Commandment) of God by your tradition?

Where have I ever tap danced around any Sabbath conversation? The Sabbath day is testified and witnessed by Moses, the prophets, the Gospel, and the book of ACTS which is testimony after the time of Jesus on this earth. The Catholic church has even preserved which day was considered the Sabbath by Jesus and his first disciples. There is no debate left. You either put faith in scripture or man made tradition concerning the Sabbath.

Jesus and Revelations testifies that people will still know the Sabbath Day during the last days.

Matthew 24:20

"But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:"

Revelations 12:17

"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." (BOTH THE COMMANDMENTS AND TESTIMONY)

You nor anyone else can take away the blessing set aside for remembering the Sabbath DAY out of a 7 day week.

Isaiah 56

The Lord said these things, Be fair to all people. Do what is right, because soon my salvation will come to you. My goodness will soon be shown to the whole world. I will bless those who refuse to do wrong and who obey the law about the Sabbath.

Some foreigners will choose to follow the Lord. They should not say, The Lord will not really accept me like the rest of his people.

A eunuch should not say, I am only a dry piece of wood. I cannot have any children. They should not say that because the Lord says, Some eunuchs obey the laws about the Sabbath. They choose to do what I want, and they follow my agreement. So I will put a memorial stone in my Temple for them. Their name will be remembered in my city! Yes, I will give those eunuchs something better than sons and daughters. I will give them a name that will last forever! They will not be cut off from my people.

Some foreigners have chosen to follow the Lord. They do this so that they can serve him and love his name and be his servants. They keep the Sabbath as a special day of worship , and they will continue to follow closely my agreement. So I will bring them to my holy mountain and make them happy in my house of prayer. The offerings and sacrifices they give me will please me , because my Temple will be called a house of prayer for all nations.

The Lord God said these things.

Well, yes he did. It is just as important to take note of the "2X4" study principle.

TO WHOM did he say it?

BY WHOM was it said, what was the speaker's or writers assigned role in the bible at the time it was written under the eyes of the Holy Spirit.

FOR WHOM was it said? Was it said as instruction to one group and for understanding by another group.

Revelation 3:

14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

EXAMPLE:

TO WHOM: The verses were written to the Church of Laodicea

BY WHOM: By Saint John, an apostle to Jews in Jerusalem, One of the 12 Apostles, Jesus' beloved apostle. Caretaker for Mary, after Christ left the earth.

FOR WHOM: It is for all church age believers as reminder to not get into materialism and to also not leave serving the world. It is a loud condemnation of the apostate churches of all ages because we get to see how Christ reacts to apostate churches. they were go back to their first love: Christ.

Leviticus 9:18King James Version (KJV)

18 He slew also the bullock and the ram for a sacrifice of peace offerings, which was for the people: and Aaron's sons presented unto him the blood, which he sprinkled upon the altar round about,

EXAMPLE:

TO WHOM: The verses were written to the OT Jews and Levite Priests.

BY WHOM: By Moses, The Lawgiver.

FOR WHOM: It is for all church age believers to understand how different and how impossible it is to keep the Law. No one was blameless before the law. That is why Christ died in atonement and wiped away the Law once and for all. As a Christian, you should take a heavy sigh of relief that we are no longer obliged to keep a law no one could keep.

Keeping the sacrifice no longer applies to a church age believer.

[aubfaninga 16]

Keeping the sacrifice no longer applies to a church age believer.

You can take up your personal hatred for the sacrificial system with HIM. Not my beef to argue about.

The sacrificial system is still in place and Jesus was, is, and will always be the Lamb that covers all sin.

We are the temple today and life MUST be sacrificed. PERIOD and no need to argue. If you eat beef then a life gave it's blood for you. If you eat wheat bread life was still sacrificed for you to live. Most every "Christian" accepts this as fact and thanks GOD for the provision. When we break bread we keep in remembrance the sacrifice that Jesus gave for us.

Luke 22:19

"And He took a cup, and when He had given thanks, He said, Take this and divide and distribute it among yourselves; For I say to you that from now on I shall not drink of the fruit of the vine at all until the kingdom of God comes. Then He took a loaf [of bread], and when He had given thanks, He broke [it] and gave it to them saying, This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me. And in like manner, He took the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament or covenant [ratified] in My blood, which is shed (poured out) for you.

1 Timothy 4

"For everything God has created is good, and nothing is to be thrown away or refused if it is received with thanksgiving. For it is hallowed and consecrated by the Word of God and by prayer."

1 Corinthians 3:16

"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?"

[aubfaninga 16]

Well, yes he did. It is just as important to take note of the "2X4" study principle.

TO WHOM did he say it?

BY WHOM was it said, what was the speaker's or writers assigned role in the bible at the time it was written under the eyes of the Holy Spirit.

FOR WHOM was it said? Was it said as instruction to one group and for understanding by another group.

Revelation 3:

14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

EXAMPLE:

TO WHOM: The verses were written to the Church of Laodicea

BY WHOM: By Saint John, an apostle to Jews in Jerusalem, One of the 12 Apostles, Jesus' beloved apostle. Caretaker for Mary, after Christ left the earth.

FOR WHOM: It is for all church age believers as reminder to not get into materialism and to also not leave serving the world. It is a loud condemnation of the apostate churches of all ages because we get to see how Christ reacts to apostate churches. they were go back to their first love: Christ.

Leviticus 9:18King James Version (KJV)

18 He slew also the bullock and the ram for a sacrifice of peace offerings, which was for the people: and Aaron's sons presented unto him the blood, which he sprinkled upon the altar round about,

EXAMPLE:

TO WHOM: The verses were written to the OT Jews and Levite Priests.

BY WHOM: By Moses, The Lawgiver.

FOR WHOM: It is for all church age believers to understand how different and how impossible it is to keep the Law. No one was blameless before the law. That is why Christ died in atonement and wiped away the Law once and for all. As a Christian, you should take a heavy sigh of relief that we are no longer obliged to keep a law no one could keep.

Keeping the sacrifice no longer applies to a church age believer.

Isaiah being the most quoted prophet in the New Testament is the only "2x4" that I need. The fact that chapters 40-66 are all about mercy, forgiveness, and the regathering of his children built around Yeshua is proof that it is relevant for us today. He mentions all nations and gentiles on numerous occasions.

Isaiah was called to preach in a time when moral decay was rampant and people were forsaking the GOD of Israel in droves. It is very much a prophetic shadow of end times.

The Book of Isaiah is a collection of poems, generally divided into the Book of Judgement (Chapters 1-39) and the Book of Consolation (Chapters 40-66). The Book contains two of the most famous prophecies in Hebrew Scripture, that of the Virgin birth of the Messiah (7:14) and the Servant who suffered and died for our sins (Isaiah 52:13-53:12), identified in the New Testament with Jesus Christ.

A wealth of Church teaching is found as well in Isaiah, such as the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit (11:2-3), and the corporal works of mercy (58:7). Some of the most beautiful hymns in the Old Testament are found in Isaiah. Isaiah 26:19 is one of the earliest references to the afterlife.

Isaiah is the most quoted prophet in the New Testament, and the Book of Isaiah is second only to Psalms in the number of verse quotations from Hebrew Scripture found in the New Testament. For example, the Gospel of Matthew 1:23 refers to Isaiah 7:14, and Mark opens his Gospel with a quote from Isaiah 40:3. Paul in the Letter to the Romans Chapter 9 quotes Isaiah three times - Isaiah 10:22-23 in Romans 9:27, Isaiah 1:9 in Romans 9:29, and Isaiah 28:16 in Romans 9:33. Isaiah Chapter 53 alone is quoted five times in the New Testament, Isaiah 53:1 in the Gospel of John 12:38, Isaiah 53:4 in Matthew 8:17, Isaiah 53:7-8 in the Acts of the Apostles 8:32-33, Isaiah 53:9 in First Peter 2:23, and Isaiah 53:12 in the Gospel of Luke 22:37!

[cooltigger21 0]

Weegle I want to make sure I understand where you are coming from. I believe you have stated that a Christian cannot ever lose their salvation. If that is so then essentially once I accept Christ and enter into his kingdom then from there on, regardless of what I do, I will not lose my salvation. I just can't go along with that idea. I understand you cannot earn it but if I should give in to temptation, and then don't turn around from that sin, I am in a lost condition. God has not condemned me. I have condemned myself. I have separated myself from him and his blood cannot cleanse me of a sin I will not repent of.

[DKW 86 7,419]

Weegle I want to make sure I understand where you are coming from. I believe you have stated that a Christian cannot ever lose their salvation. If that is so then essentially once I accept Christ and enter into his kingdom then from there on, regardless of what I do, I will not lose my salvation. I just can't go along with that idea. I understand you cannot earn it but if I should give in to temptation, and then don't turn around from that sin, I am in a lost condition. God has not condemned me. I have condemned myself. I have separated myself from him and his blood cannot cleanse me of a sin I will not repent of.

Well, if you keep living in your specific sin and dont repent and turn from it, you will still be "saved" but that doesnt mean you wont get the mess whipped out of you.

Forgiven doesnt mean you wont get punished. You can freely choose to be a "Vessel of Honor" or a "Vessel of Dishonor" but you get to choose. As we as flawed parents can righteously discipline our children when they offend us or behave badly, then God our Heavenly Father will also punish us if we continue in our sin.

But salvation is a one and done thing.

[Weegle777 78]

Weegle I want to make sure I understand where you are coming from. I believe you have stated that a Christian cannot ever lose their salvation. If that is so then essentially once I accept Christ and enter into his kingdom then from there on, regardless of what I do, I will not lose my salvation. I just can't go along with that idea. I understand you cannot earn it but if I should give in to temptation, and then don't turn around from that sin, I am in a lost condition. God has not condemned me. I have condemned myself. I have separated myself from him and his blood cannot cleanse me of a sin I will not repent of.

That belief is biblically incorrect. If it were correct, then that would mean that what Jesus did for us lacks meaning and power.

Romans 8:1-4

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[a] free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Romans 8:35-39

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written:

“For your sake we face death all day long;

we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”[a]

37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[DKW 86 7,419]

As for the NT Sabbath:

Matthew 28:1

In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Mark 16:2

And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre atthe rising of the sun.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Mark 16:9

Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Luke 24:1

Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

John 20:1

The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

John 20:19

Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear ofthe Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Acts 20:7

And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart onthe morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

1 Corinthians 16:2

Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

[DKW 86 7,419]

So, i am guessing SDA then by the way you tap danced around the Sabbath day?

How do you reconcile Judaism doing the sacrifice with being saved by Grace thru Christ. Those are two fundamentally opposed views of salvation.

Or are you part of the Messianic-Judaism Movement?

Not SDA as I feel Ellen White was a false prophet but I do not hold that against the denomination as a whole. Wonderful and delightful people with a zeal for truth.

Why would I reconcile anything "Judaism" when I stand in direct opposition to them? They believe that the Oral Torah and the Rabbis trump the written WORD. Jesus taught otherwise and I do too which leads into the Sabbath topic you brought up.

Jesus raised this question to the religious people of his day just I do most religious people of my day.

"Why do ye also transgress the commandment (4th Commandment) of God by your tradition?

Where have I ever tap danced around any Sabbath conversation? The Sabbath day is testified and witnessed by Moses, the prophets, the Gospel, and the book of ACTS which is testimony after the time of Jesus on this earth. The Catholic church has even preserved which day was considered the Sabbath by Jesus and his first disciples. There is no debate left. You either put faith in scripture or man made tradition concerning the Sabbath.

Jesus and Revelations testifies that people will still know the Sabbath Day during the last days.

Matthew 24:20

"But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:"

Revelations 12:17

"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." (BOTH THE COMMANDMENTS AND TESTIMONY)

You nor anyone else can take away the blessing set aside for remembering the Sabbath DAY out of a 7 day week.

Isaiah 56

The Lord said these things, Be fair to all people. Do what is right, because soon my salvation will come to you. My goodness will soon be shown to the whole world. I will bless those who refuse to do wrong and who obey the law about the Sabbath.

Some foreigners will choose to follow the Lord. They should not say, The Lord will not really accept me like the rest of his people.

A eunuch should not say, I am only a dry piece of wood. I cannot have any children. They should not say that because the Lord says, Some eunuchs obey the laws about the Sabbath. They choose to do what I want, and they follow my agreement. So I will put a memorial stone in my Temple for them. Their name will be remembered in my city! Yes, I will give those eunuchs something better than sons and daughters. I will give them a name that will last forever! They will not be cut off from my people.

Some foreigners have chosen to follow the Lord. They do this so that they can serve him and love his name and be his servants. They keep the Sabbath as a special day of worship , and they will continue to follow closely my agreement. So I will bring them to my holy mountain and make them happy in my house of prayer. The offerings and sacrifices they give me will please me , because my Temple will be called a house of prayer for all nations.

The Lord God said these things.

Yes he did. He didnt say them directly to church age believers however. Acts 20:7 is said by Paul, the Disciple to the Gentile Church.

[aubfaninga 16]

As for the NT Sabbath:

Matthew 28:1

In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Mark 16:2

And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre atthe rising of the sun.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Mark 16:9

Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Luke 24:1

Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

John 20:1

The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

John 20:19

Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear ofthe Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Acts 20:7

And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart onthe morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

1 Corinthians 16:2

Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

Acts 20:7 and 1 Corinthians 16:2 are evidence for my argument.

In Acts 20, Paul had taught all Sabbath and they sat down to eat after sunset. They broke bread late Saturday night before midnight! Paul had already made plans to leave early Sunday, not teach. Paul talked from Saturday night after Sabbath until day break Sunday morning and still left without sleep. I have seen no churches practice this way so why do you bring it up?

1 Corinthian 16:2 is too funny. Let us use our GOD given reasoning skills.

#1 The disciples were getting paid so were told to set aside some of it. If you can't work on Sabbath you can't get paid. Work, get paid, set aside all on the first day. THEY WERE WORKING NOT GOING TO CHURCH ON SUNDAYS.

#2 Guess who we know has no plans on being with the CORINTHIANS on Sundays? LOL... PAUL himself!!! Read it again.

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Every account of the resurrection has an empty tomb. Yeshua had even folded his burial garments.

John 20:1 "Early on Sunday morning, >>>>while it was still dark<<<<, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb. She saw that the large stone was moved away from the entrance. "

Before sunrise Christ was already out of the tomb!!!

John 20:6 "Then Simon Peter finally reached the tomb and went in. He saw the pieces of linen lying there. He also saw the cloth that had been around Jesus head. It was folded up and laid in a different place from the pieces of linen."

Mary was the first to see Yeshua only after her SECOND visit to the tomb. Yeshua was returning to the tomb not coming from it.

The day that Yeshua was first seen also confirms GODs perfect Holy Set apart days.

Leviticus 23 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

The Special Festivals

23 The Lord said to Moses, ² Tell the Israelites: You will announce the Lords chosen festivals as holy meetings. These are my special festivals.

Luke 4

¹⁶ So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read. ¹⁷ And He was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written:

¹⁸ The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,

Because He has anointed Me

To preach the gospel to the poor;

He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,

To proclaim liberty to the captives

And recovery of sight to the blind,

To set at liberty those who are oppressed;

>>>>>>>>To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.<<<<<<<< (HE WAS CONFIRMING GODS HOLY DAYS ON A HOLY DAY!!!)

Sabbath

³ Work for six days, but the seventh day, the Sabbath, will be a special day of rest, a holy meeting. You must not do any work. It is a day of rest to honor the Lord in all your homes.

Matthew 12:8 "The Son of Man is Lord over the Sabbath day."

Passover

⁴ These are the Lords chosen festivals. You will announce the holy meetings at the times chosen for them. ⁵ The Lords Passover is on the 14th day of the first month just before dark.

John 1:29 "The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, Look, the Lamb of God. He takes away the sins of the world!"

Festival of Unleavened Bread

⁶ The Lords Festival of Unleavened Bread is on the 15th day of the same month. You will eat unleavened bread for seven days. ⁷ On the first day of this festival, you will have a special meeting. You must not do any work on that day. ⁸ For seven days, you will bring sacrifices offered as gifts to the Lord. Then there will be another special meeting on the seventh day. You must not do any work on that day.

1 Corinthians 5:8 "Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth."

Festival of the First Harvests

⁹ The Lord said to Moses, ¹⁰ Tell the Israelites: You will enter the land that I will give you and reap its harvest. At that time you must bring in the first sheaf of your harvest to the priest. ¹¹ The priest will lift the sheaf to show it was offered before the Lord. Then you will be accepted. The priest will present the sheaf on Sunday morning.

¹² On the day when you present the sheaf, you will offer a one-year-old male lamb. There must be nothing wrong with that lamb. That lamb will be a burnt offering to the Lord. ¹³ You must also offer a grain offering of 16 cups of fine flour mixed with olive oil. You must also offer 1 quart of wine. The smell of that offering will please the Lord. ¹⁴ You must not eat any of the new grain, or fruit, or bread made from the new grain until you bring that offering to your God. This law will always continue through your generations, wherever you live.

1 Corinthians 15:20 "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept."

Festival of Harvest

¹⁵ From that Sunday morning (the day you bring the sheaf to be presented to God), count seven weeks. ¹⁶ On the Sunday following the seventh week (that is, 50 days later), you will bring a new grain offering to the Lord.

Acts 2 "When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Suddenly a noise came from heaven. It sounded like a strong wind blowing. This noise filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw something that looked like flames of fire. The flames were separated and stood over each person there. They were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they began to speak different languages. The Holy Spirit was giving them the power to do this."

You bring up Acts but refuse to see that the Sabbath is still called Sabbath and the first day the first day even after many years.

FIRST, PAUL TEACHES ON SABBATH JUST AS JESUS DID.

Acts 13

"¹⁴ They continued their trip from Perga and went to Antioch, a city near Pisidia.

On the Sabbath day they went into the Jewish synagogue and sat down. ¹⁵ The Law of Moses and the writings of the prophets were read. Then the leaders of the synagogue sent a message to Paul and Barnabas: “Brothers, if you have something to say that will help the people here, please speak.

¹⁶ Paul stood up, raised his hand to get their attention, and said, People of Israel and all you others who worship the true God, please listen to me!

⁴² So when the Jews went out of the synagogue,^[j] the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.

⁴⁴ On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God.

Acts 17

² Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures, ³ explaining and demonstrating that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, This Jesus whom I preach to you is the Christ.

Hebrews 4

"1 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it."

⁴ For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: And God rested on the seventh day from all His works ⁵ and again in this place: They shall not enter My rest.

⁶ Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, ⁷ again He designates a certain day, saying in David, Today, after such a long time, as it has been said:

Today, if you will hear His voice,

Do not harden your hearts."

1 John 5:3

"In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,"

John 14:15

""If you love me, keep my commands."

Matthew 15:3

"Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?"

Revelation 14:12

"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."

And God spake all these words, saying, I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
   
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
   
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
   
4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
   
5. Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.
   
6. Thou shalt not kill.
   
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
   
8. Thou shalt not steal.
   
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
   
10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbors
    

[DKW 86 7,419]

Wow...That goes against everything i have read in the bible and have heard wise men teach.

[Weegle777 78]

Still not sure why anyone would want to follow the ministry of death and condemnation and not life.

[aubfaninga 16]

Wow...That goes against everything i have read in the bible and have heard wise men teach.

One last question for your "wise" men. In the letter to the Corinthians that you used about setting aside for the Saints... Where did Paul give them advice on where to do this?

A) at church

or

each person in their own home