Americans love torture

[AUUSN 823]

The link I provided was the actual guy who came up with and administered the water boarding.

Cut. Paste. The relevant passage as your proof.

There are 2 video interviews. If you don't care to watch, that's on you. Stop buggin me w/ your laziness.

That's all you got. An interview with Megan Kelly? Then it's safe to say you still have no idea what you are talking about. Deal with that.

[AURaptor 1,121]

That's all you got. An interview with Megan Kelly? Then it's safe to say you still have no idea what you are talking about. Deal with that.

Ignorance is your bliss. Megyn is interviewing...oh, never mind. You're too much a coward to bother watching anyways.

[homersapien 11,354]

We didn't do anything to those who want to murder 1000's of Americans that we don't also do to our own soldiers.

It wasn't torture.

This simply not true....again. It wasnt true the first time you stated it. I asked you to provide proof and you folded. Stop speaking on topics you have no idea about.

it's true. it was true the first time I said it, and it'll always be true.

Deal w/ it.

From this very forum...

http://www.foxnews.c...-senate-report/

So do you not really understand the difference between voluntary training exercises which simulate torture and actual torture?

You don't see how they might possibly not be the same?

[homersapien 11,354]

The dishonest title of this thread lessens the real message, in my opinion.

You are correct.

It should read: "Americans Justify Torture (Well At Least The Religious Ones Do)"

It's a blight on the name of Christ.

No worries. Blue is going to revise the book.

[AUUSN 823]

That's all you got. An interview with Megan Kelly? Then it's safe to say you still have no idea what you are talking about. Deal with that.

Ignorance is your bliss. Megyn is interviewing...oh, never mind. You're too much a coward to bother watching anyways.

After everyting I posted, that's your retort. You are full of sh.. plain and simple. Deal with that.

[AURaptor 1,121]

Naw, I'm right. Sorry if that annoys you.

[AUUSN 823]

In testimony presented to the Senate Judiciary committee, FBI interrogator Ali Soufan said:

The issue that I am here to discuss today – interrogation methods used to question terrorists – is not, and should not be, a partisan matter. We all share a commitment to using the best interrogation method possible that serves our national security interests and fits squarely within the framework of our nation’s principles.

From my experience – and I speak as someone who has personally interrogated many terrorists and elicited important actionable intelligence– I strongly believe that it is a mistake to use what has become known as the “enhanced interrogation techniques,” a position shared by many professional operatives, including the CIA officers who were present at the initial phases of the Abu Zubaydah interrogation.

[TexasTiger 12,811]

"The torture methods that Tenet defends have nurtured the recuperative power of the enemy. This war will be won or lost not on the battlefield but in the minds of potential supporters who have not yet thrown in their lot with the enemy. If we forfeit our values by signaling that they are negotiable in situations of grave or imminent danger, we drive those undecideds into the arms of the enemy. This way lies defeat, and we are well down the road to it.

This is not just a lesson for history. Right now, White House lawyers are working up new rules that will govern what CIA interrogators can do to prisoners in secret. Those rules will set the standard not only for the CIA but also for what kind of treatment captured American soldiers can expect from their captors, now and in future wars. Before the president once again approves a policy of official cruelty, he should reflect on that.

It is time for us to remember who we are and approach this enemy with energy, judgment and confidence that we will prevail. That is the path to security, and back to ourselves."Charles C. Krulak was commandant of the Marine Corps from 1995 to 1999. Joseph P. Hoar was commander in chief of U.S. Central Command from 1991 to 1994.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/16/AR2007051602395.html

Are you suggesting Krulak knows more than Raptor? Raptor has years of experience posting in political forums.

[AURaptor 1,121]

Doesn't matter what he believes. He wasn't there. Wasn't part of the process.

[AUUSN 823]

Naw, I'm right. Sorry if that annoys you.

Doesnt annoy me. I know you have no idea what you're talking about. You let Megan whats her face dictate your thinking.

[AURaptor 1,121]

Naw, I'm right. Sorry if that annoys you.

Doesnt annoy me. I know you have no idea what you're talking about. You let Megan whats her face dictate your thinking.

It's funny because you really have no clue of what you're talking about.

[AUUSN 823]

Naw, I'm right. Sorry if that annoys you.

Doesnt annoy me. I know you have no idea what you're talking about. You let Megan whats her face dictate your thinking.

It's funny because you really have no clue of what you're talking about.

I know you are but what am I? I watched your propaganda piece. Still doesnt prove your untruthful statement. Provide proof.

[homersapien 11,354]

Man. Raptor and Blue drink from the same well (Kool Aid?) when it comes to maniacal persistence in trying to further a losing position. Evidence, facts, history, morals and logic be damned!

They are sorta like our very own Taliban in that respect.

[AUUSN 823]

Waterboarding has been used as a form of torture since the Middle Ages. Oxford scholar Cecil Roth writes in his book The Spanish Inquisition:

The water-torture was more ingenious, and more fiendish. The prisoner was fastened almost naked on a sort of trestle with sharp-edged rungs and kept in position with an iron band, his head lower than his feet, and his limbs bound to the side-pieces with agonizing tightness. The mouth was then forced open and a strip of linen inserted into the gullet. Through this, water was poured from a jar (

jarra

), obstructing the throat and nostrils and producing a state of semi-suffocation. The process was repeated time after time, as many as eight

jarras

being applied.

[AURaptor 1,121]

Already proven. UBL caught & dead.

Your red herring fallicies of how others used wboarding are moot.

[AU-HANDLEY-TIGER 205]

As Cinderella once sang " everybody's got opinions but nobody's got the answers" sorry ADD is kicking in " somebody save me"

[homersapien 11,354]

Already proven. UBL caught & dead.

Your red herring fallicies of how others used wboarding are moot.

Even if it were true, I'd much rather he still be at large than to concede defeat to him. For defeating us is exactly what he has done by dragging us down to his moral level in the eyes of the world. We would have gotten him sooner or later. Why sell our soul for such a worthless piece of evil as Bin Laden?

You don't get that at all. It's as if you really don't have any principles.

[AUUSN 823]

Former JAG of the Navy Real Admiral Hutson,

But in that struggle, the enemy cannot defeat us militarily. They don't have the lift, they don't have the command and control, communications. They don't have the weapons systems. They can't defeat us militarily.

Winning for the enemy is to cause us to change, to bring us down to his level, to cause us to be something different than what we have been.

Our great strength, the support of human rights and the rule of law. Thomas Paine said that, The cause of America is the cause of all mankind. The great more recent geopolitical commentator Bono said that, America isn't just a country, it's an idea.

We are engaged in an asymmetric war. And in an asymmetric war, the strategy is to pit your strength against the enemy's weakness, unlike World War II, for example, where it was often strength against strength.

Our great strength is our ideals. Thomas Paine and Bono had it right.

The enemy is abjectly devoid of ideals. So the enemy can't defeat us -- certainly can't defeat us militarily, but we can commit national suicide by disarming ourselves of our ideals.

And there are lots of unfortunate examples of how we have started down that road: the Bybee torture memo, the Gonzales' memo with regard to the Geneva Conventions, suspension of habeas corpus, combatant status review tribunals, Guantanamo and indefinite detention, lots and lots and lots of examples of torture. We can all say that the United States doesn't torture, but all you've got to do is read the newspapers and you see lots of examples of it.

And more recently, the CIA authorized enhanced interrogation -- a lovely euphemism -- justified by secret memos, legal opinions from the Department of Justice.

Let me give you some examples of where that road is not.

Going back to 1950, The United States -- this is the armed forces officer -- The United States abides by the laws of war. It's armed forces in their dealing with all peoples are expected to comply with the law of war in spirit and letter. Wanton killing, torture, cruelty or the working of unusual and unnecessary hardship -- we all talk about torture; back then they were talking about the working of unusual, unnecessary hardship -- on enemy prisoners or populations is not justified under any circumstances.

Article 30-93 (ph) of the Uniform Code of Military Justice: Cruelty and maltreatment: Any person subject to this code is guilty of cruelty toward or oppression or maltreatment of any person, subject to his orders, shall be ordered punished as a court-martial may direct.

Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions: Following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and any place whatsoever, including, among others, outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment.

The Supreme Court never said part of Common Article 3 applies. The Supreme Court said Common Article 3 applies. That includes outrages on personal dignity.

We don't need a measured repudiation of those definitions of torture as being mistakes or unnecessary. We need a clarion call. We need a ringing, unequivocal repudiation of those definitions of what has happened that is so strong that it brings tears to your eyes and makes small children wince in its force.

We are not engaged in an existential struggle here, unless we make it so. Only Americans can make America change.

If we falter now, or cower as a nation in the face of this adversity, if we disarm ourselves, we don't deserve the gifts that were given to us by those early patriots or by the world's greatest generation.

And it's the attorney general who, to mix metaphors, stands at the pinnacle and will make the decision whether we're at a pendulum or a plateau.

[TitanTiger 20,471]

self edit.

[homersapien 11,354]

Former JAG of the Navy Real Admiral Hutson,

But in that struggle, the enemy cannot defeat us militarily. They don't have the lift, they don't have the command and control, communications. They don't have the weapons systems. They can't defeat us militarily.

Winning for the enemy is to cause us to change, to bring us down to his level, to cause us to be something different than what we have been.

Our great strength, the support of human rights and the rule of law. Thomas Paine said that, The cause of America is the cause of all mankind. The great more recent geopolitical commentator Bono said that, America isn't just a country, it's an idea.

We are engaged in an asymmetric war. And in an asymmetric war, the strategy is to pit your strength against the enemy's weakness, unlike World War II, for example, where it was often strength against strength.

Our great strength is our ideals. Thomas Paine and Bono had it right.

The enemy is abjectly devoid of ideals. So the enemy can't defeat us -- certainly can't defeat us militarily, but we can commit national suicide by disarming ourselves of our ideals.

And there are lots of unfortunate examples of how we have started down that road: the Bybee torture memo, the Gonzales' memo with regard to the Geneva Conventions, suspension of habeas corpus, combatant status review tribunals, Guantanamo and indefinite detention, lots and lots and lots of examples of torture. We can all say that the United States doesn't torture, but all you've got to do is read the newspapers and you see lots of examples of it.

And more recently, the CIA authorized enhanced interrogation -- a lovely euphemism -- justified by secret memos, legal opinions from the Department of Justice.

Let me give you some examples of where that road is not.

Going back to 1950, The United States -- this is the armed forces officer -- The United States abides by the laws of war. It's armed forces in their dealing with all peoples are expected to comply with the law of war in spirit and letter. Wanton killing, torture, cruelty or the working of unusual and unnecessary hardship -- we all talk about torture; back then they were talking about the working of unusual, unnecessary hardship -- on enemy prisoners or populations is not justified under any circumstances.

Article 30-93 (ph) of the Uniform Code of Military Justice: Cruelty and maltreatment: Any person subject to this code is guilty of cruelty toward or oppression or maltreatment of any person, subject to his orders, shall be ordered punished as a court-martial may direct.

Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions: Following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and any place whatsoever, including, among others, outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment.

The Supreme Court never said part of Common Article 3 applies. The Supreme Court said Common Article 3 applies. That includes outrages on personal dignity.

We don't need a measured repudiation of those definitions of torture as being mistakes or unnecessary. We need a clarion call. We need a ringing, unequivocal repudiation of those definitions of what has happened that is so strong that it brings tears to your eyes and makes small children wince in its force.

We are not engaged in an existential struggle here, unless we make it so. Only Americans can make America change.

If we falter now, or cower as a nation in the face of this adversity, if we disarm ourselves, we don't deserve the gifts that were given to us by those early patriots or by the world's greatest generation.

And it's the attorney general who, to mix metaphors, stands at the pinnacle and will make the decision whether we're at a pendulum or a plateau.

That was impressive. Shame that Raptor and his friends won't read it.

[TitanTiger 20,471]

Former JAG of the Navy Real Admiral Hutson,

But in that struggle, the enemy cannot defeat us militarily. They don't have the lift, they don't have the command and control, communications. They don't have the weapons systems. They can't defeat us militarily.

Winning for the enemy is to cause us to change, to bring us down to his level, to cause us to be something different than what we have been.

Our great strength, the support of human rights and the rule of law. Thomas Paine said that, The cause of America is the cause of all mankind. The great more recent geopolitical commentator Bono said that, America isn't just a country, it's an idea.

We are engaged in an asymmetric war. And in an asymmetric war, the strategy is to pit your strength against the enemy's weakness, unlike World War II, for example, where it was often strength against strength.

Our great strength is our ideals. Thomas Paine and Bono had it right.

The enemy is abjectly devoid of ideals. So the enemy can't defeat us -- certainly can't defeat us militarily, but we can commit national suicide by disarming ourselves of our ideals.

And there are lots of unfortunate examples of how we have started down that road: the Bybee torture memo, the Gonzales' memo with regard to the Geneva Conventions, suspension of habeas corpus, combatant status review tribunals, Guantanamo and indefinite detention, lots and lots and lots of examples of torture. We can all say that the United States doesn't torture, but all you've got to do is read the newspapers and you see lots of examples of it.

And more recently, the CIA authorized enhanced interrogation -- a lovely euphemism -- justified by secret memos, legal opinions from the Department of Justice.

Let me give you some examples of where that road is not.

Going back to 1950, The United States -- this is the armed forces officer -- The United States abides by the laws of war. It's armed forces in their dealing with all peoples are expected to comply with the law of war in spirit and letter. Wanton killing, torture, cruelty or the working of unusual and unnecessary hardship -- we all talk about torture; back then they were talking about the working of unusual, unnecessary hardship -- on enemy prisoners or populations is not justified under any circumstances.

Article 30-93 (ph) of the Uniform Code of Military Justice: Cruelty and maltreatment: Any person subject to this code is guilty of cruelty toward or oppression or maltreatment of any person, subject to his orders, shall be ordered punished as a court-martial may direct.

Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions: Following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and any place whatsoever, including, among others, outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment.

The Supreme Court never said part of Common Article 3 applies. The Supreme Court said Common Article 3 applies. That includes outrages on personal dignity.

We don't need a measured repudiation of those definitions of torture as being mistakes or unnecessary. We need a clarion call. We need a ringing, unequivocal repudiation of those definitions of what has happened that is so strong that it brings tears to your eyes and makes small children wince in its force.

We are not engaged in an existential struggle here, unless we make it so. Only Americans can make America change.

If we falter now, or cower as a nation in the face of this adversity, if we disarm ourselves, we don't deserve the gifts that were given to us by those early patriots or by the world's greatest generation.

And it's the attorney general who, to mix metaphors, stands at the pinnacle and will make the decision whether we're at a pendulum or a plateau.

That was impressive. Shame that Raptor and his friends won't read it.

Of course not. Fox hath spoken.

[AUUSN 823]

Already proven. UBL caught & dead.

Your red herring fallicies of how others used wboarding are moot.

I asked for proof and you continue with this? I have lost all respect for you. That little feeling in the pit of your stomach is you losing in the arena of ideas. Deal with it.

[autigeremt 6,569]

Like the back and forth but a more serious question.

What do you think about drone strikes in countries not called Iraq or Afghanistan that kill operatives of terror and cause collateral damage? I'm being serious here...not trying to derail this wonderful discussion.

[alexava 6,973]

I don't care if toture is not always effective. If it is sometimes effective then use it. I hate to sound heartless, but if you can get pertinent info get it. If they send me on wild goose chases with lies it's going to get worse. I am not talking about suspected terrorist but KNOWN terrorist thugs. Whatever it takes. I certainly wouldn't want enemy terrorist organizations to know i didn't use torture. At least let them think they are getting scalped or something. This should not be publicly discussed.

[homersapien 11,354]

Like the back and forth but a more serious question.

What do you think about drone strikes in countries not called Iraq or Afghanistan that kill operatives of terror and cause collateral damage? I'm being serious here...not trying to derail this wonderful discussion.

I am conflicted. It's much more ambiguous from a moral standpoint than torturing prisoners. There is no "equivalence" IMO.

In war we have often bombed or shelled with the sure knowledge that "collateral damage" will be inevitable. Does actually seeing the "collateral damage" before impact change the morality of the action? I am inclined to say no.

But I also recognize that undeclared, asymmetric wars come with a lot of moral ambiguities. Things were much simpler when dealing with existential war with a nation-state.

This probably deserves it's own thread.