Robert E. Lee's Birthday

[TexasTiger 12,830]

Back in the day, I remember REL's birthday being a state holiday and schools being out...he is a great study in leadership and battlefield tenacity.

And a traitor.

Let's go down that road again! :roflol:/>

Jus sayin'. ;)/>

Doesn't matter how many times you say it -- it's still patently false. The facts are: the CSA did secede and was a sovereign country for about 4 years. No confederate was ever tried for treason, and certainly not REL. It was thought at the time that any treason charges couldn't be proven anyway due to the Constitution not specifically mentioning secession. Only Jefferson Davis was indicted for treason and held in jail for 2 years, then released under President Johnson's general amnesty,

What did Jefferson do that Lee didn't ? Didn't Lee lead an army against the United States of America?

[AUDub 11,147]

Doesn't matter how many times you say it -- it's still patently false.

Let's get this stupid show started, shall we?

It's not false.

The facts are: the CSA did secede and was a sovereign country for about 4 years.

Bull. They were never a sovereign nation. Only in the minds of lost cause apologists like yourself.

No confederate was ever tried for treason, and certainly not REL. It was thought at the time that any treason charges couldn't be proven anyway due to the Constitution not specifically mentioning secession.

That they were never tried is an uninteresting bit of trivia to me. REL applied for pardon. For treason. The only reason he was never tried was because it would hamstring Reconstruction.

Only Jefferson Davis was indicted for treason and held in jail for 2 years, then released under President Johnson's general amnesty,

Yeah.

And.

So.

What?

[AUloggerhead 2,229]

Back in the day, I remember REL's birthday being a state holiday and schools being out...he is a great study in leadership and battlefield tenacity.

And a traitor.

Let's go down that road again! :roflol:/>

Jus sayin'. ;)/>

Doesn't matter how many times you say it -- it's still patently false. The facts are: the CSA did secede and was a sovereign country for about 4 years. No confederate was ever tried for treason, and certainly not REL. It was thought at the time that any treason charges couldn't be proven anyway due to the Constitution not specifically mentioning secession. Only Jefferson Davis was indicted for treason and held in jail for 2 years, then released under President Johnson's general amnesty,

What did Jefferson do that Lee didn't ? Didn't Lee lead an army against the United States of America?

Davis was Lee's boss.

[TexasTiger 12,830]

Back in the day, I remember REL's birthday being a state holiday and schools being out...he is a great study in leadership and battlefield tenacity.

And a traitor.

Let's go down that road again! :roflol:/>

Jus sayin'. ;)/>

Doesn't matter how many times you say it -- it's still patently false. The facts are: the CSA did secede and was a sovereign country for about 4 years. No confederate was ever tried for treason, and certainly not REL. It was thought at the time that any treason charges couldn't be proven anyway due to the Constitution not specifically mentioning secession. Only Jefferson Davis was indicted for treason and held in jail for 2 years, then released under President Johnson's general amnesty,

What did Jefferson do that Lee didn't ? Didn't Lee lead an army against the United States of America?

Davis was Lee's boss.

That's it? We have grunts at Gitmo that fought in Afghanistan. He led an armed insurrection against the USA.

[autigeremt 6,599]

This thread was pointless....but protected speech and that's about it. I have read a lot about Lee, Jackson, Grant, Sherman....and of course Dr. King. Each have their place in history. The true history of the unCivil War may never be portrayed in the open, but it's an interesting time where we finally began a transition from ownership of men and women to true civility. It hasn't been easy and I'd like to kick the crown in the teeth for bringing slavery to the colonies.

[autigeremt 6,599]

Back in the day, I remember REL's birthday being a state holiday and schools being out...he is a great study in leadership and battlefield tenacity.

And a traitor.

Let's go down that road again! :roflol:/>

Jus sayin'. ;)/>

Doesn't matter how many times you say it -- it's still patently false. The facts are: the CSA did secede and was a sovereign country for about 4 years. No confederate was ever tried for treason, and certainly not REL. It was thought at the time that any treason charges couldn't be proven anyway due to the Constitution not specifically mentioning secession. Only Jefferson Davis was indicted for treason and held in jail for 2 years, then released under President Johnson's general amnesty,

What did Jefferson do that Lee didn't ? Didn't Lee lead an army against the United States of America?

Davis was Lee's boss.

That's it? We have grunts at Gitmo that fought in Afghanistan. He led an armed insurrection against the USA.

The Constitution protected secession prior to the war...did it not? The creation of the U.S. was achieved through an armed insurrection. Just saying.

[TexasTiger 12,830]

Back in the day, I remember REL's birthday being a state holiday and schools being out...he is a great study in leadership and battlefield tenacity.

And a traitor.

Let's go down that road again! :roflol:/>

Jus sayin'. ;)/>

Doesn't matter how many times you say it -- it's still patently false. The facts are: the CSA did secede and was a sovereign country for about 4 years. No confederate was ever tried for treason, and certainly not REL. It was thought at the time that any treason charges couldn't be proven anyway due to the Constitution not specifically mentioning secession. Only Jefferson Davis was indicted for treason and held in jail for 2 years, then released under President Johnson's general amnesty,

What did Jefferson do that Lee didn't ? Didn't Lee lead an army against the United States of America?

Davis was Lee's boss.

That's it? We have grunts at Gitmo that fought in Afghanistan. He led an armed insurrection against the USA.

The Constitution protected secession prior to the war...did it not? The creation of the U.S. was achieved through an armed insurrection. Just saying.

Where in the Constitution ?

[AUloggerhead 2,229]

Doesn't matter how many times you say it -- it's still patently false.

Let's get this stupid show started, shall we?

It's not false.

The facts are: the CSA did secede and was a sovereign country for about 4 years.

Bull. They were never a sovereign nation. Only in the minds of lost cause apologists like yourself.

No confederate was ever tried for treason, and certainly not REL. It was thought at the time that any treason charges couldn't be proven anyway due to the Constitution not specifically mentioning secession.

That they were never tried is an uninteresting bit of trivia to me. REL applied for pardon. For treason. The only reason he was never tried was because it would hamstring Reconstruction.

Only Jefferson Davis was indicted for treason and held in jail for 2 years, then released under President Johnson's general amnesty,

Yeah.

And.

So.

What?

Rebuttals in order:

1. The CSA was a separate country with their own Constitution & laws including the printing of their own currency. They held sway over the states that made up their country for the time of their existence. In other words, they were "sovereign."

2. I'm just stating the facts as they are and I am no apologist for any clause except the truth. Truth be known, I am of the same opinion of the patriot Robert E. Lee that secession of the South was ridiculous and could only result in its' ruin.

3. Robert E. Lee never applied for pardon "for treason." He applied as a consequence of President Johnson's Proclamation of Amnesty & Pardon. He complied fully with the proclamation's provisions. Again, even in the case of Jefferson Davis (President of the CSA for those that don't know history,) there was no case to be made "for treason." So, even he was released eventually,

I would never have believed that some on this forum would exhibit Radical Republican traits. Learn something new every day.

[AUloggerhead 2,229]

Back in the day, I remember REL's birthday being a state holiday and schools being out...he is a great study in leadership and battlefield tenacity.

And a traitor.

Let's go down that road again! :roflol:/>

Jus sayin'. ;)/>

Doesn't matter how many times you say it -- it's still patently false. The facts are: the CSA did secede and was a sovereign country for about 4 years. No confederate was ever tried for treason, and certainly not REL. It was thought at the time that any treason charges couldn't be proven anyway due to the Constitution not specifically mentioning secession. Only Jefferson Davis was indicted for treason and held in jail for 2 years, then released under President Johnson's general amnesty,

What did Jefferson do that Lee didn't ? Didn't Lee lead an army against the United States of America?

Davis was Lee's boss.

That's it? We have grunts at Gitmo that fought in Afghanistan. He led an armed insurrection against the USA.

The Constitution protected secession prior to the war...did it not? The creation of the U.S. was achieved through an armed insurrection. Just saying.

Actually, the US Constitution didn't address secession directly. Therefore the 10th Amendment in the Bill of Rights let the matter be dealt with by the States themselves. That was the argument for secession.

[AUloggerhead 2,229]

Back in the day, I remember REL's birthday being a state holiday and schools being out...he is a great study in leadership and battlefield tenacity.

And a traitor.

Let's go down that road again! :roflol:/>

Jus sayin'. ;)/>

Doesn't matter how many times you say it -- it's still patently false. The facts are: the CSA did secede and was a sovereign country for about 4 years. No confederate was ever tried for treason, and certainly not REL. It was thought at the time that any treason charges couldn't be proven anyway due to the Constitution not specifically mentioning secession. Only Jefferson Davis was indicted for treason and held in jail for 2 years, then released under President Johnson's general amnesty,

What did Jefferson do that Lee didn't ? Didn't Lee lead an army against the United States of America?

Davis was Lee's boss.

That's it? We have grunts at Gitmo that fought in Afghanistan. He led an armed insurrection against the USA.

What do the Marine guards at Gitmo have to do with the discussion?

[autigeremt 6,599]

Back in the day, I remember REL's birthday being a state holiday and schools being out...he is a great study in leadership and battlefield tenacity.

And a traitor.

Let's go down that road again! :roflol:/>

Jus sayin'. ;)/>

Doesn't matter how many times you say it -- it's still patently false. The facts are: the CSA did secede and was a sovereign country for about 4 years. No confederate was ever tried for treason, and certainly not REL. It was thought at the time that any treason charges couldn't be proven anyway due to the Constitution not specifically mentioning secession. Only Jefferson Davis was indicted for treason and held in jail for 2 years, then released under President Johnson's general amnesty,

What did Jefferson do that Lee didn't ? Didn't Lee lead an army against the United States of America?

Davis was Lee's boss.

That's it? We have grunts at Gitmo that fought in Afghanistan. He led an armed insurrection against the USA.

The Constitution protected secession prior to the war...did it not? The creation of the U.S. was achieved through an armed insurrection. Just saying.

Actually, the US Constitution didn't address secession directly. Therefore the 10th Amendment in the Bill of Rights let the matter be dealt with by the States themselves. That was the argument for secession.

And some states decided to separate. I've always believed they had the right yo do so....regardless of the eventual reunification.

[autigeremt 6,599]

Back in the day, I remember REL's birthday being a state holiday and schools being out...he is a great study in leadership and battlefield tenacity.

And a traitor.

Let's go down that road again! :roflol:/>

Jus sayin'. ;)/>

Doesn't matter how many times you say it -- it's still patently false. The facts are: the CSA did secede and was a sovereign country for about 4 years. No confederate was ever tried for treason, and certainly not REL. It was thought at the time that any treason charges couldn't be proven anyway due to the Constitution not specifically mentioning secession. Only Jefferson Davis was indicted for treason and held in jail for 2 years, then released under President Johnson's general amnesty,

What did Jefferson do that Lee didn't ? Didn't Lee lead an army against the United States of America?

Davis was Lee's boss.

That's it? We have grunts at Gitmo that fought in Afghanistan. He led an armed insurrection against the USA.

The Constitution protected secession prior to the war...did it not? The creation of the U.S. was achieved through an armed insurrection. Just saying.

Where in the Constitution ?

10th Amendment gave states the right to separate. They did so and created another sovereign nation.

[TexasTiger 12,830]

Back in the day, I remember REL's birthday being a state holiday and schools being out...he is a great study in leadership and battlefield tenacity.

And a traitor.

Let's go down that road again! :roflol:/>

Jus sayin'. ;)/>

Doesn't matter how many times you say it -- it's still patently false. The facts are: the CSA did secede and was a sovereign country for about 4 years. No confederate was ever tried for treason, and certainly not REL. It was thought at the time that any treason charges couldn't be proven anyway due to the Constitution not specifically mentioning secession. Only Jefferson Davis was indicted for treason and held in jail for 2 years, then released under President Johnson's general amnesty,

What did Jefferson do that Lee didn't ? Didn't Lee lead an army against the United States of America?

Davis was Lee's boss.

That's it? We have grunts at Gitmo that fought in Afghanistan. He led an armed insurrection against the USA.

The Constitution protected secession prior to the war...did it not? The creation of the U.S. was achieved through an armed insurrection. Just saying.

Where in the Constitution ?

10th Amendment gave states the right to separate. They did so and created another sovereign nation.

Cite where that is in the 10th Amendment.

[AUDub 11,147]

Rebuttals in order:

This should be good.

1. The CSA was a separate country with their own Constitution & laws including the printing of their own currency. They held sway over the states that made up their country for the time of their existence. In other words, they were "sovereign."

...The Confederate States of America were a non-entity under the law of nations. No foreign nation, and certainly not the United States, ever recognized them. The CSA were never a country that Lee could have been a citizen of. The US always had jurisdiction over the states in rebellion, and Lee was always a United States citizen. True enough, they were granted belligerent status, but they were never a sovereign nation except in their leaders' own mind, the minds of unreconstructed southerners and modern day apologists....

2. I'm just stating the facts as they are and I am no apologist for any clause except the truth. Truth be known, I am of the same opinion of the patriot Robert E. Lee that secession of the South was ridiculous and could only result in its' ruin.

Someone define "fact" and "truth" for his benefit.

3. Robert E. Lee never applied for pardon "for treason." He applied as a consequence of President Johnson's Proclamation of Amnesty & Pardon. He complied fully with the proclamation's provisions.

Here's two links detailing two of the proclamations issued by Andrew Johnson. The first proclamation detailed the classes, of which General Lee was a part, that must appeal to the president directly for pardon and amnesty. The first issued in 1865 and the other in 1868:

http://history.ncsu....c/items/show/13

The following classes of persons are excepted from the benefits of this proclamation: 1st, all who are or shall have been pretended civil or diplomatic officers or otherwise domestic or foreign agents of the pretended Confederate government; 2nd, all who left judicial stations under the United States to aid the rebellion; 3d, all who shall have been military or naval officers of said pretended Confederate government above the rank of colonel in the army or lieutenant in the navy; 4th, all who left seats in the Congress of the United States to aid the rebellion; 5th, all who resigned or tendered resignations of their commissions in the army or navy of the United States to evade duty in resisting the rebellion; 6th, all who have engaged in any way in treating otherwise than lawfully as prisoners of war persons found in the United States service, as officers, soldiers, seamen, or in other capacities; 7th, all persons who have been, or are absentees from the United States for the purpose of aiding the rebellion; 8th, all military and naval officers in the rebel service, who were educated by the government in the Military Academy at West Point or the United States Naval Academy; 9th, all persons who held the pretended offices of governors of States in insurrection against the United States; 10th, all persons who left their homes within the jurisdiction and protection of the United States, and passed beyond the Federal military lines into the pretended Confederate States for the purpose of aiding the rebellion; 11th, all persons who have been engaged in the destruction of the commerce of the United States upon the high seas, and all persons who have made raids into the United States from Canada, or been engaged in destroying the commerce of the United States upon the lakes and rivers that separate the British Provinces from the United States; 12th, all persons who, at the time when they seek to obtain the benefits hereof by taking the oath herein prescribed, are in military, naval, or civil confinement, or custody, or under bonds of the civil, military, or naval authorities, or agents of the United States as prisoners of war, or persons detained for offenses of any kind, either before or after conviction; 13th, all persons who have voluntarily participated in said rebellion, and the estimated value of whose taxable property is over twenty thousand dollars; 14th, all persons who have taken the oath of amnesty as prescribed in the President's proclamation of December 8th, A.D. 1863, or an oath of allegiance to the government of the United States since the date of said proclamation, and who have not thenceforward kept and maintained the same inviolate.

Provided, That special application may be made to the President for pardon by any person belonging to the excepted classes; and such clemency will be liberally extended as may be consistent with the facts of the case and the peace and dignity of the United States.

In the 1865 proclamation he didn't say "treason." He said the war was a "rebellion." That's sufficient to identify its leaders as traitors. He didn't mince words in the '68 proclamation, though:

http://www.presidenc.../ws/?pid=72360#

Now, therefore, be it known that I, Andrew Johnson President of the United States, by virtue of the power and authority in me vested by the Constitution and in the name of the sovereign people of the United States, do hereby proclaim and declare unconditionally and without reservation, to all and to every person who, directly or indirectly, participated in the late insurrection or rebellion a full pardon and amnesty for the offense of treason against the United States or of adhering to their enemies during the late civil war, with restoration of all rights, privileges, and immunities under the Constitution and the laws which have been made in pursuance thereof.

So one can reasonably infer that the letter addressed to President Johnson in my prior post as well as the application for pardon and amnesty are in fact for the crime of treason. Here's the letter, just in case:

Being excluded from the provisions of amnesty & pardon contained in the proclamation of the 29th Ulto; I hereby apply for the benefits, & full restoration of all rights & privileges extended to those included in its terms. I graduated at the Mil. Academy at West Point in June 1829. Resigned from the U.S. Army April '61. Was a General in the Confederate Army, & included in the surrender of the Army of N. Va. 9 April '65.

[/Quote]

Again, even in the case of Jefferson Davis (President of the CSA for those that don't know history,) there was no case to be made "for treason." So, even he was released eventually,

The decision to be lenient to the Lee and the other rebels was purely a matter of political expediency. It doesn't matter that he was never tried. He even had to apply for a pardon, for treason.

I would never have believed that some on this forum would exhibit Radical Republican traits. Learn something new every day.

If by "Radical Republican traits" you mean a distaste for historical revisionism, then I am guilty.

Going to be a lot of PRATT in this thread. :-\

[TexasTiger 12,830]

Rebuttals in order:

This should be good.

1. The CSA was a separate country with their own Constitution & laws including the printing of their own currency. They held sway over the states that made up their country for the time of their existence. In other words, they were "sovereign."

...The Confederate States of America were a non-entity under the law of nations. No foreign nation, and certainly not the United States, ever recognized them. The CSA were never a country that Lee could have been a citizen of. The US always had jurisdiction over the states in rebellion, and Lee was always a United States citizen. True enough, they were granted belligerent status, but they were never a sovereign nation except in their leaders' own mind, the minds of unreconstructed southerners and modern day apologists....

2. I'm just stating the facts as they are and I am no apologist for any clause except the truth. Truth be known, I am of the same opinion of the patriot Robert E. Lee that secession of the South was ridiculous and could only result in its' ruin.

Someone define "fact" and "truth" for his benefit.

3. Robert E. Lee never applied for pardon "for treason." He applied as a consequence of President Johnson's Proclamation of Amnesty & Pardon. He complied fully with the proclamation's provisions.

Here's two links detailing two of the proclamations issued by Andrew Johnson. The first proclamation detailed the classes, of which General Lee was a part, that must appeal to the president directly for pardon and amnesty. The first issued in 1865 and the other in 1868:

http://history.ncsu....c/items/show/13

The following classes of persons are excepted from the benefits of this proclamation: 1st, all who are or shall have been pretended civil or diplomatic officers or otherwise domestic or foreign agents of the pretended Confederate government; 2nd, all who left judicial stations under the United States to aid the rebellion; 3d, all who shall have been military or naval officers of said pretended Confederate government above the rank of colonel in the army or lieutenant in the navy; 4th, all who left seats in the Congress of the United States to aid the rebellion; 5th, all who resigned or tendered resignations of their commissions in the army or navy of the United States to evade duty in resisting the rebellion; 6th, all who have engaged in any way in treating otherwise than lawfully as prisoners of war persons found in the United States service, as officers, soldiers, seamen, or in other capacities; 7th, all persons who have been, or are absentees from the United States for the purpose of aiding the rebellion; 8th, all military and naval officers in the rebel service, who were educated by the government in the Military Academy at West Point or the United States Naval Academy; 9th, all persons who held the pretended offices of governors of States in insurrection against the United States; 10th, all persons who left their homes within the jurisdiction and protection of the United States, and passed beyond the Federal military lines into the pretended Confederate States for the purpose of aiding the rebellion; 11th, all persons who have been engaged in the destruction of the commerce of the United States upon the high seas, and all persons who have made raids into the United States from Canada, or been engaged in destroying the commerce of the United States upon the lakes and rivers that separate the British Provinces from the United States; 12th, all persons who, at the time when they seek to obtain the benefits hereof by taking the oath herein prescribed, are in military, naval, or civil confinement, or custody, or under bonds of the civil, military, or naval authorities, or agents of the United States as prisoners of war, or persons detained for offenses of any kind, either before or after conviction; 13th, all persons who have voluntarily participated in said rebellion, and the estimated value of whose taxable property is over twenty thousand dollars; 14th, all persons who have taken the oath of amnesty as prescribed in the President's proclamation of December 8th, A.D. 1863, or an oath of allegiance to the government of the United States since the date of said proclamation, and who have not thenceforward kept and maintained the same inviolate.

Provided, That special application may be made to the President for pardon by any person belonging to the excepted classes; and such clemency will be liberally extended as may be consistent with the facts of the case and the peace and dignity of the United States.

In the 1865 proclamation he didn't say "treason." He said the war was a "rebellion." That's sufficient to identify its leaders as traitors. He didn't mince words in the '68 proclamation, though:

http://www.presidenc.../ws/?pid=72360#

Now, therefore, be it known that I, Andrew Johnson President of the United States, by virtue of the power and authority in me vested by the Constitution and in the name of the sovereign people of the United States, do hereby proclaim and declare unconditionally and without reservation, to all and to every person who, directly or indirectly, participated in the late insurrection or rebellion a full pardon and amnesty for the offense of treason against the United States or of adhering to their enemies during the late civil war, with restoration of all rights, privileges, and immunities under the Constitution and the laws which have been made in pursuance thereof.

So one can reasonably infer that the letter addressed to President Johnson in my prior post as well as the application for pardon and amnesty are in fact for the crime of treason. Here's the letter, just in case:

Being excluded from the provisions of amnesty & pardon contained in the proclamation of the 29th Ulto; I hereby apply for the benefits, & full restoration of all rights & privileges extended to those included in its terms. I graduated at the Mil. Academy at West Point in June 1829. Resigned from the U.S. Army April '61. Was a General in the Confederate Army, & included in the surrender of the Army of N. Va. 9 April '65.

[/Quote]

Again, even in the case of Jefferson Davis (President of the CSA for those that don't know history,) there was no case to be made "for treason." So, even he was released eventually,

The decision to be lenient to the Lee and the other rebels was purely a matter of political expediency. It doesn't matter that he was never tried. He even had to apply for a pardon, for treason.

I would never have believed that some on this forum would exhibit Radical Republican traits. Learn something new every day.

If by "Radical Republican traits" you mean a distaste for historical revisionism, then I am guilty.

Going to be a lot of PRATT in this thread. :-\/>

Any second someone's going say, "Jane Fonda!"

[autigeremt 6,599]

Back in the day, I remember REL's birthday being a state holiday and schools being out...he is a great study in leadership and battlefield tenacity.

And a traitor.

Let's go down that road again! :roflol:/>

Jus sayin'. ;)/>

Doesn't matter how many times you say it -- it's still patently false. The facts are: the CSA did secede and was a sovereign country for about 4 years. No confederate was ever tried for treason, and certainly not REL. It was thought at the time that any treason charges couldn't be proven anyway due to the Constitution not specifically mentioning secession. Only Jefferson Davis was indicted for treason and held in jail for 2 years, then released under President Johnson's general amnesty,

What did Jefferson do that Lee didn't ? Didn't Lee lead an army against the United States of America?

Davis was Lee's boss.

That's it? We have grunts at Gitmo that fought in Afghanistan. He led an armed insurrection against the USA.

The Constitution protected secession prior to the war...did it not? The creation of the U.S. was achieved through an armed insurrection. Just saying.

Where in the Constitution ?

10th Amendment gave states the right to separate. They did so and created another sovereign nation.

Cite where that is in the 10th Amendment.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

Therefore, the states were given the right to separate because there wasn't a law specified in the Constitution that negated such an act by a state. They had the right in the opinion of some. It wasnt addressed because of a disagreement between delegates from the states who wanted assurance that the federal government wouldn't have central authority and control of everything.

[TexasTiger 12,830]

Back in the day, I remember REL's birthday being a state holiday and schools being out...he is a great study in leadership and battlefield tenacity.

And a traitor.

Let's go down that road again! :roflol:/>

Jus sayin'. ;)/>

Doesn't matter how many times you say it -- it's still patently false. The facts are: the CSA did secede and was a sovereign country for about 4 years. No confederate was ever tried for treason, and certainly not REL. It was thought at the time that any treason charges couldn't be proven anyway due to the Constitution not specifically mentioning secession. Only Jefferson Davis was indicted for treason and held in jail for 2 years, then released under President Johnson's general amnesty,

What did Jefferson do that Lee didn't ? Didn't Lee lead an army against the United States of America?

Davis was Lee's boss.

That's it? We have grunts at Gitmo that fought in Afghanistan. He led an armed insurrection against the USA.

The Constitution protected secession prior to the war...did it not? The creation of the U.S. was achieved through an armed insurrection. Just saying.

Where in the Constitution ?

10th Amendment gave states the right to separate. They did so and created another sovereign nation.

Cite where that is in the 10th Amendment.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

Therefore, the states were given the right to separate because there wasn't a law specified in the Constitution that negated such an act by a state. They had the right in the opinion of some. It want addressed because of a disagreement between delegates from the states who wanted assurance that the federal government wouldn't have central authority and control of everything.

So are individuals free to do anything the constitution doesn't specifically prohibit?

[homersapien 11,366]

Someone define "fact" and "truth" for his benefit.

Won't matter. They are useless for refuting emotionally-based arguments.

[autigeremt 6,599]

Back in the day, I remember REL's birthday being a state holiday and schools being out...he is a great study in leadership and battlefield tenacity.

And a traitor.

Let's go down that road again! :roflol:/>

Jus sayin'. ;)/>

Doesn't matter how many times you say it -- it's still patently false. The facts are: the CSA did secede and was a sovereign country for about 4 years. No confederate was ever tried for treason, and certainly not REL. It was thought at the time that any treason charges couldn't be proven anyway due to the Constitution not specifically mentioning secession. Only Jefferson Davis was indicted for treason and held in jail for 2 years, then released under President Johnson's general amnesty,

What did Jefferson do that Lee didn't ? Didn't Lee lead an army against the United States of America?

Davis was Lee's boss.

That's it? We have grunts at Gitmo that fought in Afghanistan. He led an armed insurrection against the USA.

The Constitution protected secession prior to the war...did it not? The creation of the U.S. was achieved through an armed insurrection. Just saying.

Where in the Constitution ?

10th Amendment gave states the right to separate. They did so and created another sovereign nation.

Cite where that is in the 10th Amendment.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

Therefore, the states were given the right to separate because there wasn't a law specified in the Constitution that negated such an act by a state. They had the right in the opinion of some. It want addressed because of a disagreement between delegates from the states who wanted assurance that the federal government wouldn't have central authority and control of everything.

So are individuals free to do anything the constitution doesn't specifically prohibit?

In 1791 or now? Over time those "rights" of Liberty have been reduced but the states originally had the power of law with some federal judiciary.

Of course you are clearly looking to feed your inner liberal but I'm not going to keep fishing here. This thread was nonsense anyway. Right?

[autigeremt 6,599]

Someone define "fact" and "truth" for his benefit.

Won't matter. They are useless for refuting emotionally-based arguments.

Somewhere a pot just cried out to a kettle "you are black"! Lmao

[homersapien 11,366]

Someone define "fact" and "truth" for his benefit.

Won't matter. They are useless for refuting emotionally-based arguments.

Somewhere a pot just cried out to a kettle "you are black"! Lmao

Are you trying to imply I have made an emotionally-based argument? If so, please cite it. Thanks.

[AUDub 11,147]

Someone define "fact" and "truth" for his benefit.

Won't matter. They are useless for refuting emotionally-based arguments.

Somewhere a pot just cried out to a kettle "you are black"! Lmao

Are you trying to imply I have made an emotionally-based argument? If so, please cite it. Thanks.

Funny how there never seems to be any evidence when you have these sorts of accusations hurled at you.

[homersapien 11,366]

Someone define "fact" and "truth" for his benefit.

Won't matter. They are useless for refuting emotionally-based arguments.

Somewhere a pot just cried out to a kettle "you are black"! Lmao

Are you trying to imply I have made an emotionally-based argument? If so, please cite it. Thanks.

Funny how there never seems to be any evidence when you have these sorts of accusation hurled at you.

Yeah. It's obviously sniping. I don't mind criticism, but lay out the evidence if you make such a charge.

And please keep in mind that a logic or fact-based argument made with emotion does not constitute an emotionally-based argument.

[AUloggerhead 2,229]

If by "Radical Republican traits" you mean a distaste for historical revisionism, then I am guilty.

Going to be a lot of PRATT in this thread. :-\

Radical Republicans were more interested in treating the South & its leaders as conquered enemies and (wait for it) ... traitors. Andrew Johnson was a former Senator from Tennessee and was interested in a lenient Reconstruction policy to include general amnesty for confederate combatants as well as a rapid restoration of US state-status to the seceded states -- you know, 'the war is over/let bygones by bygones' type of thing. Abraham Lincoln hinted at it is his 2nd Inaugural Address: "With malice toward none, with charity for all, etc. etc." The Radical Republicans opposed Johnson at every turn. Think about why the President would have to issue TWO Proclamations of Amnesty, the 2nd one explicitly addressing treason ... to counter the Radical Republicans bloodlust.

[WarTim 3,456]

Back in the day, I remember REL's birthday being a state holiday and schools being out...he is a great study in leadership and battlefield tenacity.

And a traitor.

By that definition, so was George Washington.......