Jump to content

Robert E. Lee's Birthday


Proud Tiger

Recommended Posts

Back in the day, I remember REL's birthday being a state holiday and schools being out...he is a great study in leadership and battlefield tenacity.

And a traitor.

By that definition, so was George Washington.......

I'd say Ted Kennedy is a bigger traitor than either.

Link to comment
Share on other sites





  • Replies 147
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Back in the day, I remember REL's birthday being a state holiday and schools being out...he is a great study in leadership and battlefield tenacity.

And a traitor.

By that definition, so was George Washington.......

George lived in an occupied colony. Lee lived in a democratic republic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If by "Radical Republican traits" you mean a distaste for historical revisionism, then I am guilty.

Going to be a lot of PRATT in this thread. :-\/>

Radical Republicans were more interested in treating the South & its leaders as conquered enemies and (wait for it) ... traitors. Andrew Johnson was a former Senator from Tennessee and was interested in a lenient Reconstruction policy to include general amnesty for confederate combatants as well as a rapid restoration of US state-status to the seceded states -- you know, 'the war is over/let bygones by bygones' type of thing. Abraham Lincoln hinted at it is his 2nd Inaugural Address: "With malice toward none, with charity for all, etc. etc." The Radical Republicans opposed Johnson at every turn. Think about why the President would have to issue TWO Proclamations of Amnesty, the 2nd one explicitly addressing treason ... to counter the Radical Republicans bloodlust.

I don't disagree with how Lee's treason was handled. I would have agreed with the Lincoln approach to dealing with traitors. That doesn't change what they were.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Radical Republicans were more interested in treating the South & its leaders as conquered enemies and (wait for it) ... traitors.

Good for them. Calling a spade a spade means I have "radical Republican tendencies."

Andrew Johnson was a former Senator from Tennessee and was interested in a lenient Reconstruction policy to include general amnesty for confederate combatants as well as a rapid restoration of US state-status to the seceded states -- you know, 'the war is over/let bygones by bygones' type of thing. Abraham Lincoln hinted at it is his 2nd Inaugural Address: "With malice toward none, with charity for all, etc. etc."

Which I consider the balance of wisdom.

The Radical Republicans opposed Johnson at every turn. Think about why the President would have to issue TWO Proclamations of Amnesty, the 2nd one explicitly addressing treason ... to counter the Radical Republicans bloodlust.

They did. There was a lot of resentment in Congress as a result of Johnson's actions toward soldiers of the former Confederacy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Happy Birthday...

Lysander Spooner ...way, waaaay more important historical figure that REL or MLK. Read his stuff. I dare you. His existence has been wiped clean of mainstream history texts.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Someone define "fact" and "truth" for his benefit.

Won't matter. They are useless for refuting emotionally-based arguments.

Somewhere a pot just cried out to a kettle "you are black"! Lmao

Are you trying to imply I have made an emotionally-based argument? If so, please cite it. Thanks.

Funny how there never seems to be any evidence when you have these sorts of accusations hurled at you.

It's called a job....haven't had time today to reply. I guess some of us have it better than others. I'm pretty stoked about it myself. lol :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Someone define "fact" and "truth" for his benefit.

Won't matter. They are useless for refuting emotionally-based arguments.

Somewhere a pot just cried out to a kettle "you are black"! Lmao

Are you trying to imply I have made an emotionally-based argument? If so, please cite it. Thanks.

Funny how there never seems to be any evidence when you have these sorts of accusations hurled at you.

It's called a job....haven't had time today to reply. I guess some of us have it better than others. I'm pretty stoked about it myself. lol :)

No problem. We can wait.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Back in the day, I remember REL's birthday being a state holiday and schools being out...he is a great study in leadership and battlefield tenacity.

And a traitor.

By that definition, so was George Washington.......

George lived in an occupied colony. Lee lived in a democratic republic.

George lived in an occupied colony under the authority of the crown (the government of the times). He was still a traitor in the eyes of the authority in charge. You don't agree (major shock there) so it is what it is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Back in the day, I remember REL's birthday being a state holiday and schools being out...he is a great study in leadership and battlefield tenacity.

And a traitor.

By that definition, so was George Washington.......

George lived in an occupied colony. Lee lived in a democratic republic.

George lived in an occupied colony under the authority of the crown (the government of the times). He was still a traitor in the eyes of the authority in charge. You don't agree (major shock there) so it is what it is.

This came up last year, and I agree. I remember Proud asking me something about a traitor's statue being in a place of honor. My reply was that there's a statue of George Washington in Trafalgar square.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Back in the day, I remember REL's birthday being a state holiday and schools being out...he is a great study in leadership and battlefield tenacity.

And a traitor.

By that definition, so was George Washington.......

George lived in an occupied colony. Lee lived in a democratic republic.

George lived in an occupied colony under the authority of the crown (the government of the times). He was still a traitor in the eyes of the authority in charge. You don't agree (major shock there) so it is what it is.

You don't see a distinction between an occupied territory with no representation and a state that is part of the USA under an agreed upon constitution? If a general today led a state in an armed insurrection against the USA would you not see him as a traitor?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Back in the day, I remember REL's birthday being a state holiday and schools being out...he is a great study in leadership and battlefield tenacity.

And a traitor.

By that definition, so was George Washington.......

George lived in an occupied colony. Lee lived in a democratic republic.

So?.......
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Back in the day, I remember REL's birthday being a state holiday and schools being out...he is a great study in leadership and battlefield tenacity.

And a traitor.

By that definition, so was George Washington.......

George lived in an occupied colony. Lee lived in a democratic republic.

So?.......

If you're gonna be ignorant, at least be brief.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Back in the day, I remember REL's birthday being a state holiday and schools being out...he is a great study in leadership and battlefield tenacity.

And a traitor.

By that definition, so was George Washington.......

George lived in an occupied colony. Lee lived in a democratic republic.

So?.......

If you're gonna be ignorant, at least be brief.

Bief-long winded. Either works the same in your case. : - ) Goooood day!!!
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Right or wrong then, right or wrong now, I have ancestors who were Confederate Soldiers who fought for their beliefs and States Rights. I support and respect them for that. We all should support and respect that, right or wrong. We separated from England because we didn't want taxation without representation among other things our forefathers believed in. I don't see anybody complaining or arguing about fighting for those beliefs. I celebrate the lives of two great Americans, Robert E. Lee and Martin Luther King, on this day. Is that such a bad thing?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Right or wrong then, right or wrong now, I have ancestors who were Confederate Soldiers who fought for their beliefs and States Rights. I support and respect them for that. We all should support and respect that, right or wrong. We separated from England because we didn't want taxation without representation among other things our forefathers believed in. I don't see anybody complaining or arguing about fighting for those beliefs. I celebrate the lives of two great Americans, Robert E. Lee and Martin Luther King, on this day. Is that such a bad thing?

A key distinction-- white southerners had representation in the USA.

We have to support wrong as well as right? Those concepts warrant identical support? Do you apply that logic to most situations?

One of those two men strived to make America better, even though he was mistreated. The other was treated with respect and privilege, yet chose to turn his back on the USA. Treat them the same?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Right or wrong then, right or wrong now, I have ancestors who were Confederate Soldiers who fought for their beliefs and States Rights. I support and respect them for that. We all should support and respect that, right or wrong. We separated from England because we didn't want taxation without representation among other things our forefathers believed in. I don't see anybody complaining or arguing about fighting for those beliefs. I celebrate the lives of two great Americans, Robert E. Lee and Martin Luther King, on this day. Is that such a bad thing?

A key distinction-- white southerners had representation in the USA.

We have to support wrong as well as right? Those concepts warrant identical support? Do you apply that logic to most situations?

It's a part of our history. I had relatives die at Gettysburg as well as Yorktown. They all deserve respect.....black soldiers included. It was a war built on years of division between the industrial north and the plantation south. If slavery is the issue at hand for you then you had better lump in half of the north because it wasn't just a southern issue. It took necessity for the north to finalize the emancipation (as sad as it is).

White southerners had representation....but they felt that they had a right to secede. Right or wrong.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Right or wrong then, right or wrong now, I have ancestors who were Confederate Soldiers who fought for their beliefs and States Rights. I support and respect them for that. We all should support and respect that, right or wrong. We separated from England because we didn't want taxation without representation among other things our forefathers believed in. I don't see anybody complaining or arguing about fighting for those beliefs. I celebrate the lives of two great Americans, Robert E. Lee and Martin Luther King, on this day. Is that such a bad thing?

A key distinction-- white southerners had representation in the USA.

We have to support wrong as well as right? Those concepts warrant identical support? Do you apply that logic to most situations?

It's a part of our history. I had relatives die at Gettysburg as well as Yorktown. They all deserve respect.....black soldiers included. It was a war built on years of division between the industrial north and the plantation south. If slavery is the issue at hand for you then you had better lump in half of the north because it wasn't just a southern issue. It took necessity for the north to finalize the emancipation (as sad as it is).

White southerners had representation....but they felt that they had a right to secede. Right or wrong.

I had relatives die fighting for the South, too. I'm not demonizing them. But they were on the wrong side of history and they were fighting against my country, the USA.

On Veterans Day do we praise those that fought against us at Normandy? Those who bombed Pearl Harbor? They believed they were right. Is that the only measure?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Right or wrong then, right or wrong now, I have ancestors who were Confederate Soldiers who fought for their beliefs and States Rights. I support and respect them for that. We all should support and respect that, right or wrong. We separated from England because we didn't want taxation without representation among other things our forefathers believed in. I don't see anybody complaining or arguing about fighting for those beliefs. I celebrate the lives of two great Americans, Robert E. Lee and Martin Luther King, on this day. Is that such a bad thing?

A key distinction-- white southerners had representation in the USA.

We have to support wrong as well as right? Those concepts warrant identical support? Do you apply that logic to most situations?

It's a part of our history. I had relatives die at Gettysburg as well as Yorktown. They all deserve respect.....black soldiers included. It was a war built on years of division between the industrial north and the plantation south. If slavery is the issue at hand for you then you had better lump in half of the north because it wasn't just a southern issue. It took necessity for the north to finalize the emancipation (as sad as it is).

White southerners had representation....but they felt that they had a right to secede. Right or wrong.

I had relatives die fighting for the South, too. I'm not demonizing them. But they were on the wrong side of history and they were fighting against my country, the USA.

On Veterans Day do we praise those that fought against us at Normandy? Those who bombed Pearl Harbor? They believed they were right. Is that the only measure?

As a Vet I praise them all for sacrificing and dying For what they believed. We should praise them all. The USA wouldn't be what it is without the civil war. This divided nation isn't far from where we were 150 plus years ago if we don't learn from the mistakes made by those in the past.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

around4ever....great post. Of course it isn't a bad thing and I said s much in my OP . Problem is some here just don't bother to read or read what he want to see. I have refrained from commenting since my OP since I could have predicted what the usual responses from some would be based on my similar post last year. I was right as you can see. And if you look back here, you will see that some just want to see how many posts they can make. It amazes me how some can be be so uninformed yet make the comments they do.. I bet without a Google search some couldn't tell you what the first state(s) to even consider secession.

Furthermore some don't even realize that on the official Alabama state calendar, REL's and MLK's birthdays are always celebrate on the same day as a sate holiday. Same for Virginia.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's a part of our history. I had relatives die at Gettysburg as well as Yorktown. They all deserve respect.....black soldiers included. It was a war built on years of division between the industrial north and the plantation south. If slavery is the issue at hand for you then you had better lump in half of the north because it wasn't just a southern issue. It took necessity for the north to finalize the emancipation (as sad as it is).

White southerners had representation....but they felt that they had a right to secede. Right or wrong.

The emancipation proclamation was brilliant from a strategic POV. Making emancipation an explicit goal for the Union ended all hope of the Confederacy gaining diplomatic recognition from Europe.

Man, I love these discussions. Let's see if we can get to 35 pages this year.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's a part of our history. I had relatives die at Gettysburg as well as Yorktown. They all deserve respect.....black soldiers included. It was a war built on years of division between the industrial north and the plantation south. If slavery is the issue at hand for you then you had better lump in half of the north because it wasn't just a southern issue. It took necessity for the north to finalize the emancipation (as sad as it is).

White southerners had representation....but they felt that they had a right to secede. Right or wrong.

The emancipation proclamation was brilliant from a strategic POV. Making emancipation an explicit goal for the Union ended all hope of the Confederacy gaining diplomatic recognition from Europe.

Man, I love these discussions. Let's see if we can get to 35 pages this year.

And thus my argument for decades has been that the war wasn't about the act of slavery as much as the main factor for slavery.....agriculture and access to the resources south of the Mason Dixon. Cotton being a big one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Right or wrong then, right or wrong now, I have ancestors who were Confederate Soldiers who fought for their beliefs and States Rights. I support and respect them for that. We all should support and respect that, right or wrong. We separated from England because we didn't want taxation without representation among other things our forefathers believed in. I don't see anybody complaining or arguing about fighting for those beliefs. I celebrate the lives of two great Americans, Robert E. Lee and Martin Luther King, on this day. Is that such a bad thing?

Not at all. I don't have ancestors in the US before 1900 as both sets of my grandparents immigrated to this country around that time. So, I don't really have a dog in the fight wrt the Civil War/ War Between the States/War of Northern Aggression however you wish to label it. I try to see both sides when I study history. Both men were historical figures & deserve recognition & remembrance for their contributions. What they don't deserve is deification. I can't tell you how many times I heard when I lived in Alabama of someone telling me they admire "Jesus Christ, Robert E Lee & Bear Bryant -- and not necessarily in that order." MLK was a philandering husband & also a plagiarist, for example. I just don't feel the need to tack those facts on whenever his name is mentioned. Same for REL -- his military genius label is tarnished somewhat for ordering Picket's Charge at Gettysburg.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And thus my argument for decades has been that the war wasn't about the act of slavery as much as the main factor for slavery.....agriculture and access to the resources south of the Mason Dixon. Cotton being a big one.

I can not parse the first section before the ellipsis. Can you rephrase it for my benefit?

Surely you're not arguing that slavery was not the cause of the war?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And thus my argument for decades has been that the war wasn't about the act of slavery as much as the main factor for slavery.....agriculture and access to the resources south of the Mason Dixon. Cotton being a big one.

I can not parse the first section before the ellipsis. Can you rephrase it for my benefit?

Surely you're not arguing that slavery was not the cause of the war?

I'm saying that slavery was the cause, but not just the freeing of slaves. The north needed the resources the south provided for its industrial engine. At the same time it needed to end slavery to continue its export of goods to Europe. A combination of reasons if you will.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.




×
×
  • Create New...