This is going to annoy EVERYONE. But I agree w/ this gay, married man.

[Weegle777 78]

59, you never answered my question.

[aubfaninga 16]

We do good because we are intelligent beings who can put ourselves into other people's shoes and understand how they would feel if we were to treat them poorly.

If you only do good because you feel coerced into it by God, I pity you.

coerced??? Have you seen a god forcefully making anyone do anything? The Bible is very clear, GOD will not "coerce" anyone into heaven. He has given everyone a chance to make a choice on their own. The GOD of the bible has given LIFE and put it in your hands.

This reminds me of having a debate with someone and all they could talk about was how evil GOD was because of all the children that were killed in the Bible. This coming from a person that actively went to PRO CHOICE rallies on a regular basis. Why is it perfectly fine for a human to deny life but if GOD does it he is evil?

Let me use your quote for a second. I am not trying to "coerce" you into anything just wanting to share my elementary picture of the story the bible portrays. This is how I explain my faith to my pre school aged children. Please do not take this as a doctrine or theology lesson. Only an illustration.

There was a FATHER(GOD almighty) that wanted to experience love and family. He prepared everything he possibly could to give this family the best life. This family (Elohim) grew and loved each other in a way that we just could never understand. Elohim (family) decided that they wanted to give even more life the chance to experience love. The FATHER and the SON began to prepare a place for the SON to start his very own family. Once finished the FATHER and SON was pleased with there decision and saw that everything was GOOD. The FATHER left all of this in the hands of the SON (Adonai aka Lord aka Jesus). Now these children were created with "free will" because Elohim knew that robots created without choice could not possibly express love nor feel love. They would be lifeless emotionless robots and of no more value than sharing love with a rock. One day these children (mankind) decided to exercise their free will in defiance of what the Elohim had worked to create (Eden). {Many teenagers do this very thing to this day. They mature to a certain point and feel they can do everything better than their parents so they leave their protected nest} Back to the story. The FATHER had taught the SON that he could not force LOVE. So the SON gave mankind what they wanted and put them out of Eden. That could have been the end of the story and the SON could have just rested and been at peace with his FATHER but the SON could not stop thinking and loving mankind. Under the guidance and wisdom from the FATHER, the Elohim then had a meeting and laid out a plan for salvation(Yeshua). This plan had to be built around free will so that anyone who decided to put their FAITH {not belief but actually putting your life in the hands of something else} could have a chance to be brought back into Eden. The SON (Adonai aka Lord aka the GOD of Abraham and Moses aka Jesus) then put into place a set of LAWS using a peculiar group of people, not to control them or Lord over them, but to give them a chance to express FAITH in something and ultimately him (Jesus). This plan was only a building block and was put into action only temporarily. This LAW was put into "force" by a contract(covenant). The stipulations were very strict because the very smallest default would annul the entire contract. Elohim was not being mean but knew for any man to truly put FAITH into the FATHERS love and wisdom they first had to be shown they were incapable of doing this on their own(works). This LAW was not evil in the first place but actually gave mankind a moral compass to make the living conditions in this world better than it was. Elohim knew the power of FAMILY but to make a FAMILY truly last the "I" must be removed and everyone must learn "WE".

"So what about the contract that the SON made with these people that was so strict?"

After the process of time, at the perfect time, the SON stepped down from his place of glory. This SON could not die while in the LOVE of his FATHER so the contract would have lasted forever. The only way for this contract to be completely torn apart and all the accumulated debt cancelled was if the parties involved were deceased.

Quote:

"We do good because we are intelligent beings who can put ourselves into other people's shoes and understand how they would feel if we were to treat them poorly."

This SON loved mankind so much that he stepped down from a perfect, painless, cancerless, deathless existence so that he could put himself under the same contract and experience the same world that mankind was living in. "HE PUT HIMSELF IN OUR SHOES" The SON left his royal mansion and decided to begin his "earthly" life in the slums of a country that was despised and thought of as dirt. The SON did not want anyone to ever say, "you don't know how I feel", or "you were handed everything". The SON, the man called Jesus (aka Yeshua), voluntarily stepped out from under the protection of his FATHER. He voluntarily was born as an infant in the worse possible neighborhood and town. He voluntarily started his life in one of the most hated group of peoples. He decided that he would be born into a group of people that he knew would create an environment that snuffs almost any chance for success. He then voluntarily laid down his life to annul the contract and free everyone from their debt. (Imagine if China fell into the ocean how much relief our government would feel from it's national debt) Despite all the impossible circumstances that he subjected himself to, this little boy, that was born from what many gossiped was a lunatic prostitute crazy women that said she had a child from GOD, that was from the lowest of lowest places, this JEW (since everyone would love Jews), became arguably one of the most influential humans to walk this earth. This one Jew from the slums, that did not even live to see 40, has influenced millions of people to feed the hungry. He has had some influence in people treating others fairly. His life and testimony has helped many in areas they felt they could not do alone.

Now all he asks is for people to follow him back into Eden. He will not push you nor leave you if you can't do it on your own. Just put FAITH in him and his finished work!!!

(Luke 15 and the parable of the lost son)

Now if all of this (The compiled Bible) is just the imagination of hundreds of people over the time frame of over 2000 years writing countless different books and letters that somehow all seem to be in agreement with each other, then I am just a crazy dreamer.

If somehow this Bible brainwashed an entire country (all together and at one time) into a false story of an Exodus that explains how there nation was created then so be it. This was not one man starting a religion and people followed his story. This was not a collection of comic books and people decided to make them gods. AN ENTIRE (millions) GROUP OF PEOPLE DECIDED TO WORSHIP THIS ONE GOD AT A SINGLE MOMENT. A God they could not even show to other nations. These millions of people completely flipped that script on the surrounding tradition and said we have one GOD and you can't see him. HOW and WHY?????? Try that today in America. Tell them we actually got here by escaping Russia on a magic carpet.

I hope everyone has wonderful experience of this thing called life today. No matter how bad things are, I am just thankful for the chance.

[alexava 6,973]

Strictly speaking, the answer is found in the bible many different ways. The "Clay" (MANKIND) doesnt ask the "Potter" (God) why and what.

You know, the last time a tornado, or a hurricane came thru, I dont remember anyone asking "Katrina, why are you such a beyotch?"

Let me ask you the same question we have debated here ad nauseum, If there is no God: Why do good?

If there is no God, then ultimately "good" boils down to nothing more than opinion and all opinions are equal and essentially worth no more than anyone else's.

"Good" boils down to opinion regardless of whether God exists or not.

We do good because we are intelligent beings who can put ourselves into other people's shoes and understand how they would feel if we were to treat them poorly.

If you only do good because you feel coerced into it by God, I pity you.

[homersapien 11,353]

Do what I want or burn in hell. Forever.

Yeah, how could anyone think of that as coercion?

[DKW 86 7,411]

The idea of morality - or "good" - could be an example of evolutionary development. A moral society is more robust than an amoral society from an evolutionary standpoint.

Morality is a natural phenomenon.

So being manipulated into living your life by the rules of others is your idea of progress?

Sucks to be you.

I don't agree at all. Intelligent man would know that survival of the fittest is not only the rule of the jungle, but it is best for the whole of man. If you have more land, and I have more guns, it is to the betterment of mankind for me to take it from you. That is inherent in the science. I don't buy your human compassion bs. It is the rule of the fittest that propels mankind. Therefore it is my right, IT IS MY DUTY to mankind to take it from you and put it to "better hands & minds."

Like I said it is all opinion, yours sucks, mine wins. It is inevitable. It is right.

<example>

[DKW 86 7,411]

Strictly speaking, the answer is found in the bible many different ways. The "Clay" (MANKIND) doesnt ask the "Potter" (God) why and what.

You know, the last time a tornado, or a hurricane came thru, I dont remember anyone asking "Katrina, why are you such a beyotch?"

Let me ask you the same question we have debated here ad nauseum, If there is no God: Why do good?

If there is no God, then ultimately "good" boils down to nothing more than opinion and all opinions are equal and essentially worth no more than anyone else's.

"Good" boils down to opinion regardless of whether God exists or not.

We do good because we are intelligent beings who can put ourselves into other people's shoes and understand how they would feel if we were to treat them poorly.

If you only do good because you feel coerced into it by God, I pity you.

:bow:/>

dude that isn't even in the game. ;-)

[Weegle777 78]

Guys, the guy in that video has zero knowledge of the nature of God. It is very common with people who come out with these type videos and with those that feel the need to disparage God.

They really aren't searching for truth, they are seeking a fight.

People that don't believe, but that are seeking truth, ask questions that are heartfelt and that are genuine.

Don't get pulled into arguments that will go nowhere.

[GiveEmElle 1,559]

I'm the new kid on the block so what I have to say may not resonate.

It seems ya'll are arguing an age old question, if a loving God exists the why does he allow the innocent to suffer, evil to continue?

There are two sides, those that don't believe in a God and those that do believe in God.

I want to address those that DO believe in God.

It seems to me you are trying to convince a nonbeliever to become a believer with WORDS. I don't believe in ghosts. You can tell me ghost stories all day, I still won't believe. However, if I had an experience with a ghost then I might believe. Non believers aren't going to become believers with words. They have to encounter God. Now before you go thumping me on the head with your Bibles, I'm most assuredly NOT saying there is no power in the word of God. I'm just saying that maybe the order is reversed. You don't make the horse drink before he gets to the water. What I'm trying to say is that arguing the merits of God isn't going to make non believers believe. That's why scriptures say to live out the gospel of Christ. Is arguing on a message board profiting?

[Weegle777 78]

Nice post Elle. Well said.

[GiveEmElle 1,559]

Thank you.

[aubfaninga 16]

I'm the new kid on the block so what I have to say may not resonate.

It seems ya'll are arguing an age old question, if a loving God exists the why does he allow the innocent to suffer, evil to continue?

There are two sides, those that don't believe in a God and those that do believe in God.

I want to address those that DO believe in God.

It seems to me you are trying to convince a nonbeliever to become a believer with WORDS. I don't believe in ghosts. You can tell me ghost stories all day, I still won't believe. However, if I had an experience with a ghost then I might believe. Non believers aren't going to become believers with words. They have to encounter God. Now before you go thumping me on the head with your Bibles, I'm most assuredly NOT saying there is no power in the word of God. I'm just saying that maybe the order is reversed. You don't make the horse drink before he gets to the water. What I'm trying to say is that arguing the merits of God isn't going to make non believers believe. That's why scriptures say to live out the gospel of Christ. Is arguing on a message board profiting?

A message board is purely a form of entertainment for me. (I witness in person)

I like discussing and debating things. I find Other peoples views and opinions helpful in growing. I enjoy talking philosophy. I love talking about the GOD of the bible.

Put them all together and I have a nice bundle of enjoyment to pass the time until signing day.

Nothing more, nothing less at the end of the post.

[aubfaninga 16]

Do want I want or burn in hell. Forever.

Yeah, how could anyone think of that as coercion? :rolleyes:/>

Do as I have asked and I will protect you and keep you forever.

or

Choose to reject this offer and I will leave you alone forever.

The decision is in your hands.

Hell??? Do you see or hear GOD anywhere around you right now? If you want silence he will give you silence. "request granted"

[GiveEmElle 1,559]

I'm the new kid on the block so what I have to say may not resonate.

It seems ya'll are arguing an age old question, if a loving God exists the why does he allow the innocent to suffer, evil to continue?

There are two sides, those that don't believe in a God and those that do believe in God.

I want to address those that DO believe in God.

It seems to me you are trying to convince a nonbeliever to become a believer with WORDS. I don't believe in ghosts. You can tell me ghost stories all day, I still won't believe. However, if I had an experience with a ghost then I might believe. Non believers aren't going to become believers with words. They have to encounter God. Now before you go thumping me on the head with your Bibles, I'm most assuredly NOT saying there is no power in the word of God. I'm just saying that maybe the order is reversed. You don't make the horse drink before he gets to the water. What I'm trying to say is that arguing the merits of God isn't going to make non believers believe. That's why scriptures say to live out the gospel of Christ. Is arguing on a message board profiting?

A message board is purely a form of entertainment for me. (I witness in person)

I like discussing and debating things. I find Other peoples views and opinions helpful in growing. I enjoy talking philosophy. I love talking about the GOD of the bible.

Put them all together and I have a nice bundle of enjoyment to pass the time until signing day.

Nothing more, nothing less at the end of the post.

Ah, so it's the offseason entertainment? My apologies.

[aubfaninga 16]

Ah, so it's the offseason entertainment? My apologies.

Did I miss something? Was this forum created for any other purpose that I am not aware of?

[GiveEmElle 1,559]

Ah, so it's the offseason entertainment? My apologies.

Did I miss something? Was this forum created for any other purpose that I am not aware of?

I'm the new girl. Just sayin.....

[DKW 86 7,411]

Elle, that is the answer. Christians have failed to demonstrate, en masse, the love of God.

The church as a whole has failed miserably to show God's love. Talk is cheap. Actions speak.

These threads are great for sparking some level of thought on subjects we don't normally get to discuss.

[homersapien 11,353]

The idea of morality - or "good" - could be an example of evolutionary development. A moral society is more robust than an amoral society from an evolutionary standpoint.

Morality is a natural phenomenon.

So being manipulated into living your life by the rules of others is your idea of progress?

Sucks to be you.

I don't agree at all. Intelligent man would know that survival of the fittest is not only the rule of the jungle, but it is best for the whole of man. If you have more land, and I have more guns, it is to the betterment of mankind for me to take it from you. That is inherent in the science. I don't buy your human compassion bs. It is the rule of the fittest that propels mankind. Therefore it is my right, IT IS MY DUTY to mankind to take it from you and put it to "better hands & minds."

Like I said it is all opinion, yours sucks, mine wins. It is inevitable. It is right.

WTF? Man, you sure are angry!

That first sentence is nonsensical. And the "sucks to be you" is kinda of ironic for a presumably self-proclaimed Christian. :-\

Do you normally go off like that on someone simply expressing their opinion?

And clearly you don't understand evolution. It's not about the survival of the fittest organism (as individuals), it's the ability of populations of organisms - or in our case, a society - to adapt and change.

And of course, for one individual to rob another does not "better" mankind. Just the opposite, which is exactly my point. Was that supposed to be satirical? Kind of hard to tell with all that Christian venom flying around.

[homersapien 11,353]

Elle, that is the answer. Christians have failed to demonstrate, en masse, the love of God.

The church as a whole has failed miserably to show God's love. Talk is cheap. Actions speak.

These threads are great for sparking some level of thought on subjects we don't normally get to discuss.

Holy Cow! Irony overload on this thread.

[GiveEmElle 1,559]

Elle, that is the answer. Christians have failed to demonstrate, en masse, the love of God.

The church as a whole has failed miserably to show God's love. Talk is cheap. Actions speak.

These threads are great for sparking some level of thought on subjects we don't normally get to discuss.

Agreed. Perhaps God allows suffering so that His people will comfort those who mourn, feed the hungry, clothe the naked.

[homersapien 11,353]

Do want I want or burn in hell. Forever.

Yeah, how could anyone think of that as coercion? :rolleyes:/>

Do as I have asked and I will protect you and keep you forever.

or

Choose to reject this offer and I will leave you alone forever.

The decision is in your hands.

Hell??? Do you see or hear GOD anywhere around you right now? If you want silence he will give you silence. "request granted"

Well, I will certainly admit that being "left alone forever" is certainly an upgrade from eternal hell.

[homersapien 11,353]

Elle, that is the answer. Christians have failed to demonstrate, en masse, the love of God.

The church as a whole has failed miserably to show God's love. Talk is cheap. Actions speak.

These threads are great for sparking some level of thought on subjects we don't normally get to discuss.

Agreed. Perhaps God allows suffering so that His people will comfort those who mourn, feed the hungry, clothe the naked.

I wonder how God decides who gets the opportunity and who gets "the treatment".

[aubfaninga 16]

Well, I will certainly admit that being "left alone forever" is certainly an upgrade from eternal hell.

LOL... Now you know that truly depends on your vision of what hell really is.

"left alone forever" with every single person that has rejected the free gift of salvation. Now these neighbors you will live forever with not only rejected "a god" but now know that there is no longer any reward or punishment coming from this "god". I wonder how well this organism (or in this case, society) will adapt and change in this environment.

Enjoy the vacation!!!

[homersapien 11,353]

Well, I will certainly admit that being "left alone forever" is certainly an upgrade from eternal hell.

LOL... Now you know that truly depends on your vision of what hell really is.

"left alone forever" with every single person that has rejected the free gift of salvation. Now these neighbors you will live forever with not only rejected "a god" but now know that there is no longer any reward or punishment coming from this "god". I wonder how well this organism (or in this case, society) will adapt and change in this environment.

Enjoy the vacation!!!

Don't know, but you can bet we throw killer parties.

[aubfaninga 16]

I wonder how God decide who gets the opportunity and who gets "the treatment".

At least you keep us on our toes.

How does "society" decide these matters?

I am not GOD nor do I know exactly how he thinks. Even you are intelligent enough to understand we could not comprehend a fraction of his knowledge if he does exist. If this "god" did create the universe we live in, could all of our scientists combined understand how he did it even if it was in a book? How big would this book be? We have started "cloning" and genetic manipulation but how much of this earths population could comprehend a manual on exactly how to do these things?

Most of us never figured out the VCR.

[aubfaninga 16]

LOL... Now you know that truly depends on your vision of what hell really is.

"left alone forever" with every single person that has rejected the free gift of salvation. Now these neighbors you will live forever with not only rejected "a god" but now know that there is no longer any reward or punishment coming from this "god". I wonder how well this organism (or in this case, society) will adapt and change in this environment.

Enjoy the vacation!!! :fish:/>

Don't know, but you can bet we throw killer parties. :P/>

I am honest enough to admit that even my old self would be envious of that thought