This is going to annoy EVERYONE. But I agree w/ this gay, married man.

[aubfaninga 16]

I have no desire to enter into an argument over Christianity. I believe that Christians allowing themselves to be divided by dogma and interpretation is sad. I feel we should be united in the love of Christ and His perfect love for us.

However, you have attributed words to me that are not mine. I have never said the Bible has no value. Whether intentional, or unintentional, I have to wonder why you would do this?

My only contention is this. Jesus and His perfect love are the basis of Christianity, not the Bible. You can know the Bible and yet, not know Jesus. Our faith is in Christ, not the Bible. We follow Christ, not the Bible. Our calling is to love, not to be Biblical scholars. Our ultimate guide should be Christ in our hearts. In no way does this mean that the Bible has no value. Allow me say it like this, in my most humble opinion, it is much more important to make Christ and His perfect love part of our lives, part of our hearts, than it is to know the Bible in our heads. We can talk to God. He will answer. For myself, that is my ultimate resource.

I have no desire to tell anyone how to practice their faith. I hope that I have not offended you or anyone else. I am humbly offering my opinion. I hope you understand.

ICHY,

I did add words from your actual post but never quoted you as saying such. I only hope that you can trust me that I was not completely attributed those words to you but was trying to shift to a gospel that is being taught today. My battle is not with atheists, homosexuals, or Christians. My words are against "religious" power.

Many view the bible as bondage to a god. I view the bible as GOD freeing us from the bondage of "man".

The protestant reformation gave the scriptures to the public. Overtime people left the bondage of the "church" and fled to this country. I am not going back even if "papa" is calling his children home under the blanket of peace, love, and unity.

http://www.jpost.com...an-Unity-388991

Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge."

1 Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

Jeremiah 6:14 "They dress the wound of my people as though it were not serious.‘Peace, peace,’ they say, when there is no peace.

Are they ashamed of their detestable conduct? No, they have no shame at all; they do not even know how to blush."

Martin Luther (16th century) "I am afraid that the schools will prove the very gates of hell, unless they diligently labor in explaining the Holy Scriptures and engraving them in the heart of the youth"

1965 - If I were the devil

[aubfaninga 16]

"He wouldn't walk into churches anyway."

Weegs is correct,

Mark 2:17

"Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

[Weegle777 78]

"He wouldn't walk into churches anyway."

Exactly. He would go to the people that are hurting. Like He said, "For the Son of man came to seek and to save that which is lost."

[DKW 86 7,419]

I, too, agree with GA. If Christ walked into most churches in America, they would be just like the Pharisees of old. They would miss him again because he didnt have on a Rush Tie, a Hannity lapel pin, or a Glenn Beck bumper sticker on his car.

Why can we not favorite posts?

He wouldn't walk into churches anyway, He would be with people who are hurting like the homeless on the corner, the prostitutes on the streets, the drug addicts in the alleys, in the food kitchen feeding people, and with the kids who are contemplating suicide. Jesus was vilified because He was always with those deemed "not worthy". That is why He was and is so loved, and why He was hated by the "churchy" people.

I agree on His work with those that need help, but, Jesus taught in many synagogues and at the temple. He verbally fought with the Pharisees as well. I would more accurately say He was hated by the RELIGIOUS people. Technically, there were no churches back then.

[aubfaninga 16]

I agree on His work with those that need help, but, Jesus taught in many synagogues and at the temple. He verbally fought with the Pharisees as well. I would more accurately say He was hated by the RELIGIOUS people. Technically, there were no churches back then.

Very good point DKW! He would spend time teaching in churches as well. Thanks for posting that.

and I also agree,

He was very hated by a majority of the RELIGIOUS authority of that time.

[Weegle777 78]

You guys are splitting hairs. I believe you know what I meant.

[DKW 86 7,419]

Well, their is a huge difference IMHO in what is called RELIGION and Actual Christianity. Christians want to work with the poor, the hurting, the addicted. The RELIGIOUS want to drive around in their fine cars, live in fine houses, and are as materialistic as anyone in the world. They dont tithe because they do not believe in tithing. They worship their lifestyle and try to justify it as "rugged individualism" or some such They believe in giving at best a poor tip to God, a few bucks, and that is it. They scream at others about their problems and cant see their own for the beam in their eyes. They have zero grace or forgiveness for others. They collect fish stickers and suits and hard heartedness. <Example> They hate gays because in their little minds they have managed to create a "my sins arent as bad as yours" mentality when the bible teaches exactly the opposite.

I use the term RELIGIOUS because people like this transcend all world religions since the dawn of time. They are found in mosques (Taliban & Militant Fundies), churches, synagogues, and temples of all kinds.They hide their craziness and mean spiritedness in a religion and try and hide it from themselves as well. I dont think my fight would be with a peace loving Muslim, Buddhist, Shintoist, etc. It is with those wrapped up in RELIGION. Here in America, these crazies might not kill with a gun or bomb, but they spiritually kill all the time.

[Weegle777 78]

Tithing is law based. Nowhere in the New Covenant does it command us to give 10% of our income.

[DKW 86 7,419]

Tithing is law based. Nowhere in the New Covenant does it command us to give 10% of our income.

Congrats, you are correct. We are encouraged to:

Matthew 6:19-20

“Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."

We are asked to give abundantly toward the church. A tithe is a good starting place.

[AURaptor 1,122]

Wish I had that verse on my mind when I crossed paths w/ a few Jim and Tammy Faye types, back in the day.

[DKW 86 7,419]

Wish I had that verse on my mind when I crossed paths w/ a few Jim and Tammy Faye types, back in the day.

Raptor, i cannot abide Jim & Tammy Faye, etc. They do so much damage to the church as a whole.

[Mims44 1,867]

I love these debate topics so much.

Someone else make an outlandish factual claim based on faith so I can have more to read:)

[aubfaninga 16]

I love these debate topics so much.

Someone else make an outlandish factual claim based on faith so I can have more to read:)

I could always challenge the "traditional church" interpretation of the parable concerning "new wine into old wine skins".

[Weegle777 78]

I'm your huckleberry.....

Was the great commission meant for every follower of Christ, or just the 12?

[aubfaninga 16]

I'm your huckleberry.....

Was the great commission meant for every follower of Christ, or just the 12?

Exactly why I will always respect your faith.

By great commission I am assuming you meant the instructions to spread the gospel outside of Jerusalem to the world. Technically it could not have been for the 12 because only 11 were present when Yeshua spoke the words.

Was it for every believer ? I say yes. Ananias and Paul is proof enough for me.

The 11, and Judas, had already gathered a labor force waiting instructions to be sent.

Matthew 9:36-38

"But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd. Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few; Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest."

Immediately following this, Jesus had his apostles gather able bodied souls from the lost sheep of Israel but were instructed not to go to the gentiles just yet.

Matthew 10:8-42 were the instructions they were giving anyone willing to believe. By default more than 12 received instruction to "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils" etc.....

[Weegle777 78]

But does it say that we are to continue the great commission, or has it just been misinterpreted or inferred that "since it is in the Bible, it is meant as a command for us too."? Which is very common with most Christians today.

[aubfaninga 16]

But does it say that we are to continue the great commission, or has it just been misinterpreted or inferred that "since it is in the Bible, it is meant as a command for us too."? Which is very common with most Christians today.

Only a full preterist can feel comfortable saying the instruction to spread the gospel is no longer valid. Since it is evident that I don't believe the instructions given to Moses and the prophets are to be forsaken, then it is incompatible for me to believe I am not sent to make disciples for Jesus.

I feel physical baptism is a "work" just as physical circumcision is. Yes a believer should want to be water baptized but it is merely a "good work" done in faith. The deeper meaning of "immersion" is immersing people in the WORD.

Deuteronomy 6 (the greatest commandment according to Jesus)

"The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

>>>>> And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.<<<<<<

And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes. And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates"

Paul taught in the same manner. Romans 10 (also see Isaiah 52)

"For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!"

Paul then goes on to show how Israel as a nation did not heed the call to be "a light to the nations" and spread truth. This is exactly why gentiles have been grafted in. To spread the gospel! Romans 11 explains even farther how to understand this "grafting in".

Let's go back and read Matthew 5 to see what happens with useless salt.

"Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets."

[AURaptor 1,122]

Wish I had that verse on my mind when I crossed paths w/ a few Jim and Tammy Faye types, back in the day.

Raptor, i cannot abide Jim & Tammy Faye, etc. They do so much damage to the church as a whole.

They aren't the only ones. I've had personal experience w/ " Christians " who tried to tell me that those who believe in Jesus, the word, a certain church, what ever, will get rewarded , HERE ON EARTH, and live just fine. Why wait 'til heaven to enjoy God's bounty ?

[WarTim 3,456]

Wish I had that verse on my mind when I crossed paths w/ a few Jim and Tammy Faye types, back in the day.

Raptor, i cannot abide Jim & Tammy Faye, etc. They do so much damage to the church as a whole.

They aren't the only ones. I've had personal experience w/ " Christians " who tried to tell me that those who believe in Jesus, the word, a certain church, what ever, will get rewarded , HERE ON EARTH, and live just fine. Why wait 'til heaven to enjoy God's bounty ?

You can enjoy a daily walk with Christ. The "reward" should not be the goal. Serving God should be the goal. JMHO

[aubfaninga 16]

You can enjoy a daily walk with Christ. The "reward" should not be the goal. Serving God should be the goal. JMHO

Framed

[WarTim 3,456]

You can enjoy a daily walk with Christ. The "reward" should not be the goal. Serving God should be the goal. JMHO

Framed

Framed? What does that mean/imply?

[aubfaninga 16]

You can enjoy a daily walk with Christ. The "reward" should not be the goal. Serving God should be the goal. JMHO

Framed

Framed? What does that mean/imply?

I was excited to see you and I have a common understanding on something

[WarTim 3,456]

You can enjoy a daily walk with Christ. The "reward" should not be the goal. Serving God should be the goal. JMHO

Framed

Framed? What does that mean/imply?

I was excited to see you and I have a common understanding on something

Thank You. Jesus Christ is Lord. Some may deny...and yet He loves them and gave His life for them as well.

[DKW 86 7,419]

Wish I had that verse on my mind when I crossed paths w/ a few Jim and Tammy Faye types, back in the day.

Raptor, i cannot abide Jim & Tammy Faye, etc. They do so much damage to the church as a whole.

They aren't the only ones. I've had personal experience w/ " Christians " who tried to tell me that those who believe in Jesus, the word, a certain church, what ever, will get rewarded , HERE ON EARTH, and live just fine. Why wait 'til heaven to enjoy God's bounty ?

I could write a bunch on the "Only My Church Is Going To Heaven Crowd." The reason i was 28 before i looked toward God was that my own friends and family members were so incredibly wrong about theology. They figuratively poisoned me toward Christianity with all their mis-guided, mis-informed crapola. For the most part, they belonged to one denomination that says that only members of their local congregations were going to Heaven. They taught that members of others churches affiliated with them were dying and going to hell as well.

Like anything that involves humans, a large part of those involved are just flat wrong. They have been taught wrongly for years. decades, even several lifetimes. Some of the denominations that are the most cocksure of their believes are the ones that have it the Most Wrong.

I do not endorse in any way the "Prosperity Theology" churches either.

[WarTim 3,456]

Wish I had that verse on my mind when I crossed paths w/ a few Jim and Tammy Faye types, back in the day.

Raptor, i cannot abide Jim & Tammy Faye, etc. They do so much damage to the church as a whole.

They aren't the only ones. I've had personal experience w/ " Christians " who tried to tell me that those who believe in Jesus, the word, a certain church, what ever, will get rewarded , HERE ON EARTH, and live just fine. Why wait 'til heaven to enjoy God's bounty ?

I could write a bunch on the "Only My Church Is Going To Heaven Crowd." The reason i was 28 before i looked toward God was that my own friends and family members were so incredibly wrong about theology. They figuratively poisoned me toward Christianity with all their mis-guided, mis-informed crapola. For the most part, they belonged to one denomination that says that only members of their local congregations were going to Heaven. They taught that members of others churches affiliated with them were dying and going to hell as well.

Like anything that involves humans, a large part of those involved are just flat wrong. They have been taught wrongly for years. decades, even several lifetimes. Some of the denominations that are the most cocksure of their believes are the ones that have it the Most Wrong.

I do not endorse in anyway the "Prosperity Theology" churches either.

Me either. Many will have a lot to answer for come THAT day.......