This is going to annoy EVERYONE. But I agree w/ this gay, married man.

[Weegle777 78]

1 John 1:9 , and when we do what this verse says, He does just that. He cleanses us from ALL unrighteousness.

What you don't seem to be getting is that when we are saved, we are:

1.forgiven of all sin past, present, and future, all sin is taken away from us,

2.we are cleansed from all unrighteousness,

3. We are sealed with the Holy Spirit,

4. We are seated in heaven with Jesus,

5. We are made absolutely righteous,

6. We are sanctified (made holy)

7. We are blessed with every spiritual blessing,

8. We are set apart.

NOW***

Repentance means to "change our minds" it is not a solitary act, but a process of changing our way of thinking, changing our thought processes. Renewing our minds everyday.

Think of it this way:

Say you have a computer with a corrupt hard drive and just bad hardware altogether. You replace the cabinet, the motherboard, the memory, and every other piece. Everything is brand new. But, that hard drive (our mind) can't be replaced. Now you have a brand new creation, but you still have all of that corrupt data (all of our bad habits and bad thought processes) that needs to be gotten rid of and restructured. This is what happens to us.

We are brand new, but we still have those bad habits and bad thought processes that we get rid of by reading the Bible and changing our way of thinking (repentance).

When God looks at you aufaninga, He sees His perfect, holy, righteous, pure, cleansed, and sealed precious child that His Son died for. He sees YOU, not Jesus, YOU. YOU are a new creation without flaw and without sin, because Jesus took all of your sin away at the cross.

[Mims44 1,864]

Let's throw a monkey wrench in the discussion. considering Old testament, since I'm better equipped at that.

Why does Egyptian records never show semitic slave ownership? Why does it show no facts of slavery at all? Besides of course the 6 months people who were new citizens worked for the egyptian government.

Why is there no archeological facts showing from the millions of escaping Jews from Egypt? We can follow the path of a much smaller amount of Ceruleans into America from thousands of years prior to the Exodus, why is there nothing to support the Judaic leave of Israel?

Why is Asheera never mentioned outside of the oldest books of Judaism? She was the wife of El, the god of Abraham. Why is she removed? Why does Asheera and Els prodigal son YHWH become one with El in later texts? Is the move of the Gods El and YHWH from father and son to being one true almighty god reflected in the new testament of God and Jesus being one?

Why if there is only one God does the religion of Abrahams commandments say, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" if there were no other gods it should be worded differently right?

.... And before anyone gets pissy. I play devils advocate because it strengthens your faith by having to answer hard questions concerning your faith.

[aubfaninga 16]

Repentance means to "change our minds" it is not a solitary act, but a process of changing our way of thinking, changing our thought processes. Renewing our minds everyday.

Think of it this way:

Say you have a computer with a corrupt hard drive and just bad hardware altogether. You replace the cabinet, the motherboard, the memory, and every other piece. Everything is brand new. But, that hard drive (our mind) can't be replaced. Now you have a brand new creation, but you still have all of that corrupt data (all of our bad habits and bad thought processes) that needs to be gotten rid of and restructured. This is what happens to us.

We are brand new, but we still have those bad habits and bad thought processes that we get rid of by reading the Bible and changing our way of thinking (repentance).

When God looks at you aufaninga, He sees His perfect, holy, righteous, pure, cleansed, and sealed precious child that His Son died for. He sees YOU, not Jesus, YOU. YOU are a new creation without flaw and without sin, because Jesus took all of your sin away at the cross.

TRUE Repentance means "change of HEART" True repentance involves a change of heart and purpose, it inevitably results in a change of behavior and mind. Once your heart is repentant he has promised to put his SPIRIT and give you a new heart.

Think of it this way: (please understand that I don't trust mans wisdom concerning building computers)

Proverbs 28

"Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered."

Psalm 1

"Blessed (happy, fortunate, prosperous, and enviable) is the man who walks and lives not in the counsel of the ungodly [following their advice, their plans and purposes], nor stands [submissive and inactive] in the path where sinners walk, nor sits down [to relax and rest] where the scornful [and the mockers] gather." But his delight and desire are in the law of the Lord, and on His law (the precepts, the instructions, the teachings of God) he habitually meditates (ponders and studies) by day and by night."

Jeremiah 17

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?"

Matthew 15

"For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander."

Ephesians 4

"So this I say and solemnly testify in [the name of] the Lord [as in His presence], that you must no longer live as the heathen do in their perverseness [in the folly, vanity, and emptiness of their souls and the futility] of their MINDS.

Their moral understanding is darkened and their reasoning is beclouded. [They are] alienated (estranged, self-banished) from the life of God [with no share in it; this is] because of the ignorance (the want of knowledge and perception, the willful blindness) that is deep-seated in them, due to their hardness of heart [to the insensitiveness of their moral nature].

In their spiritual apathy they have become callous and past feeling and reckless and have abandoned themselves [a prey] to unbridled sensuality, eager and greedy to indulge in every form of impurity [that their depraved desires may suggest and demand].

Jeremiah 24

"And I will give them a heart to know (recognize, understand, and be acquainted with) Me, that I am the Lord; and they will be My people, and I will be their God, for they will return to Me with their whole heart."

Ezekiel 36

"Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleanness; and from all your idols will I cleanse you. A new heart will I give you and a new spirit will I put within you, and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you shall heed My ordinances and do them."

Psalm 51

"Hide Your face from my sins and blot out all my guilt and iniquities. Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right, persevering, and steadfast spirit within me."

Ezekiel 11

"And I will give them one heart [a new heart] and I will put a new spirit within them; and I will take the stony [unnaturally hardened] heart out of their flesh, and will give them a heart of flesh [sensitive and responsive to the touch of their God], That they may walk in My statutes and keep My ordinances, and do them. And they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

But as for those whose heart yearns for and goes after their detestable things and their loathsome abominations, I will repay their deeds upon their own heads, says the Lord God."

Hebrews 3

"Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME, AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS, WHERE YOUR FATHERS TRIED Me BY TESTING Me, AND SAW MY WORKS FOR FORTY YEARS."

Proverbs 28

"He who covers his transgressions will not prosper, but whoever confesses and forsakes his sins will obtain mercy. Blessed (happy, fortunate, and to be envied) is the man who reverently and worshipfully fears [the Lord] at all times [regardless of circumstances], but he who hardens his heart will fall into calamity."

[aubfaninga 16]

Let's throw a monkey wrench in the discussion. considering Old testament, since I'm better equipped at that.

Why does Egyptian records never show semitic slave ownership? Why does it show no facts of slavery at all? Besides of course the 6 months people who were new citizens worked for the egyptian government.

Why is there no archeological facts showing from the millions of escaping Jews from Egypt? We can follow the path of a much smaller amount of Ceruleans into America from thousands of years prior to the Exodus, why is there nothing to support the Judaic leave of Israel?

Why is Asheera never mentioned outside of the oldest books of Judaism? She was the wife of El, the god of Abraham. Why is she removed? Why does Asheera and Els prodigal son YHWH become one with El in later texts? Is the move of the Gods El and YHWH from father and son to being one true almighty god reflected in the new testament of God and Jesus being one?

Why if there is only one God does the religion of Abrahams commandments say, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" if there were no other gods it should be worded differently right?

.... And before anyone gets pissy. I play devils advocate because it strengthens your faith by having to answer hard questions concerning your faith.

No. I am happy to discuss. I will only prove that I do not have all the answers but can hopefully show some merit in having faith in it.

"Why does Egyptian records never show semitic slave ownership?"

So if Hebrews had there own territory, skilled laborers, and fierce fighters, as the Bible claims, then there would be no record of slave ownership. The Egyptians did not own individual Hebrew slaves. The question is, were they free to just leave? Was there risk of violence if they decided to leave? What would it do for Egypts economy? It's military?

Another thing to think about: There would be no paper trail of me bullying a kid to give me his lunch money and do my homework. Just a threat of violence.

"Why is there no archeological facts showing from the millions of escaping Jews from Egypt?"

Where are you looking and what are you looking for?

Egypt watches over every dig with a careful eye. They halted BYU's dig over comments made. http://www.sltrib.co...stores-egyptian

The route of the Exodus (whatever it may be) is thru Muslim areas. Is there any chance any evidence to Jewish claims could have been removed during the Ottoman Empire? Heck, they (muslims) buried most of Jerusalem and the Jews are still sifting thru the trash and digging ancient sites up to this very day.

"Why is Asheera never mentioned outside of the oldest books of Judaism?"

The bible claims that Abraham himself was pulled from Babylon. The bible claims he brought others with him and I have no doubt some brought Idol worship with them. Perfect mixture of Abraham and Ishtar and you have Asheera (aka: the virgin mary, Diana, Osiris, etc...)!!! The Torah does speak on this subject but in a very negative light. Exodus 34 "Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles"

Asheera was pagan worship before the bible claims Jews step foot in Israel. The northern tribe (and then Judah) assimilated their practices and new myths and pagan worship was born. (see Catholic church for a modern example of assimilation)

The bible does not shy from this fact but openly testifies to the fact. The kingdoms forsake their GOD and his TORAH.

1 Kings 14

"Judah did evil in the sight of the LORD, and they provoked Him to jealousy more than all that their fathers had done, with the sins which they committed. For they also built for themselves high places and sacred pillars and Asherim on every high hill and beneath every luxuriant tree. There were also male cult prostitutes in the land. They did according to all the abominations of the nations which the LORD dispossessed before the sons of Israel"

"Why if there is only one God does the religion of Abrahams commandments..."

Would you feel better if I worded it this way?

Exodus 20

Then THE RULER(Elohim) spoke all these words:

I am Yeshua your RULER(Elohim), Who has brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

You shall have no other RULER(elohim) before or after Me.

{"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.}

[aubfaninga 16]

help me understand something above. The ark built by Noah, large enough to sail with a pair of every animal on earth thousands of years ago. Was that possible? Is it possible today?

Now you know that I cannot give any answer that will satisfy you but I will ramble anyway. All I can do is offer thoughts and even more questions.

First off, I don't feel the scriptures are in competition with science nor can the two be compared.

Ex: If I were to ask a thermal physicist, "why the water was boiling on my stove", I am sure he could give me a more than adequate answer.

If I were to ask my wife she would say, "you wanted Tea".

Both answers are correct!!!

The unknown and power of belief...

Some say we did not put a man on the moon while others think they are crazy. Some say 9-11 was an inside job and others don't. I have seen people almost come to blows over Christopher Columbus and Leif Erikson. More recently is the Obama/muslim debate. Or what about Weegs and I?

Some have absolute unwavering faith in Evolution but never bother to see if there is any truth to the "irreducibly complex" theory. The tension between these two ideas only breeds more knowledge and curiosity so it is a wonderful dichotomy. I love the new findings that come out from both sides. Yes, I also enjoy jokingly asking the evolutionists to remove the manipulator/creator (aka scientist) out of the room, sit there and watch the empty petri dish, and come get me when something happens.

Lots of observable things are yet to be explained.

What is an Alabama fan and where do they come from?

Could we build an exact replica of the Great Pyramid in the time frame they did?

Can we recreate the mortar the Egyptians used? (which is harder than the stone)

How did they build Sacsayhuaman?

What is up with Pumapunku?

The ancients are known for moving some really big and heavy stones as well. They were not chumps at innovation. We still to this day try to recreate how they moved monolithic stones and What in the WORLD were they planning on doing with a 1600 ton stone in Baalbek?

Isaac Newton believed that man could fly. Some probably laughed.

Isaac Newton also proposed the Earth was not perfectly round. Some probably laughed.

Isaac Newton also believed in the bible. He would have been a cool person to theorize Noahs ark.

Could we rebuild a full sized replica of Noahs Ark today? Sure, to this best of our knowledge of what is given in scripture. With enough money we can do many things. Just ask the Arab Emirates. (google Netherlands Noahs Ark)

How much resources did Noah have? King Solomon built a temple with a lot of resources, allies, and labor and most likely never lifted a finger.

Maybe some answers can be found within these links. Maybe not.

http://www.icr.org/article/8039/

http://www.independe...ay-9234799.html

http://www.christian...n/edn-c013.html

Another non biblical question just for fun. Why does the Chinese character for a boat combine vessel, with person, and the number 8?

[Weegle777 78]

Repentance means to "change our minds" it is not a solitary act, but a process of changing our way of thinking, changing our thought processes. Renewing our minds everyday.

Think of it this way:

Say you have a computer with a corrupt hard drive and just bad hardware altogether. You replace the cabinet, the motherboard, the memory, and every other piece. Everything is brand new. But, that hard drive (our mind) can't be replaced. Now you have a brand new creation, but you still have all of that corrupt data (all of our bad habits and bad thought processes) that needs to be gotten rid of and restructured. This is what happens to us.

We are brand new, but we still have those bad habits and bad thought processes that we get rid of by reading the Bible and changing our way of thinking (repentance).

When God looks at you aufaninga, He sees His perfect, holy, righteous, pure, cleansed, and sealed precious child that His Son died for. He sees YOU, not Jesus, YOU. YOU are a new creation without flaw and without sin, because Jesus took all of your sin away at the cross.

TRUE Repentance means "change of HEART" True repentance involves a change of heart and purpose, it inevitably results in a change of behavior and mind. Once your heart is repentant he has promised to put his SPIRIT and give you a new heart.

Think of it this way: (please understand that I don't trust mans wisdom concerning building computers)

Proverbs 28

"Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered."

Psalm 1

"Blessed (happy, fortunate, prosperous, and enviable) is the man who walks and lives not in the counsel of the ungodly [following their advice, their plans and purposes], nor stands [submissive and inactive] in the path where sinners walk, nor sits down [to relax and rest] where the scornful [and the mockers] gather." But his delight and desire are in the law of the Lord, and on His law (the precepts, the instructions, the teachings of God) he habitually meditates (ponders and studies) by day and by night."

Jeremiah 17

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?"

Matthew 15

"For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander."

Ephesians 4

"So this I say and solemnly testify in [the name of] the Lord [as in His presence], that you must no longer live as the heathen do in their perverseness [in the folly, vanity, and emptiness of their souls and the futility] of their MINDS.

Their moral understanding is darkened and their reasoning is beclouded. [They are] alienated (estranged, self-banished) from the life of God [with no share in it; this is] because of the ignorance (the want of knowledge and perception, the willful blindness) that is deep-seated in them, due to their hardness of heart [to the insensitiveness of their moral nature].

In their spiritual apathy they have become callous and past feeling and reckless and have abandoned themselves [a prey] to unbridled sensuality, eager and greedy to indulge in every form of impurity [that their depraved desires may suggest and demand].

Jeremiah 24

"And I will give them a heart to know (recognize, understand, and be acquainted with) Me, that I am the Lord; and they will be My people, and I will be their God, for they will return to Me with their whole heart."

Ezekiel 36

"Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleanness; and from all your idols will I cleanse you. A new heart will I give you and a new spirit will I put within you, and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you shall heed My ordinances and do them."

Psalm 51

"Hide Your face from my sins and blot out all my guilt and iniquities. Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right, persevering, and steadfast spirit within me."

Ezekiel 11

"And I will give them one heart [a new heart] and I will put a new spirit within them; and I will take the stony [unnaturally hardened] heart out of their flesh, and will give them a heart of flesh [sensitive and responsive to the touch of their God], That they may walk in My statutes and keep My ordinances, and do them. And they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

But as for those whose heart yearns for and goes after their detestable things and their loathsome abominations, I will repay their deeds upon their own heads, says the Lord God."

Hebrews 3

"Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME, AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS, WHERE YOUR FATHERS TRIED Me BY TESTING Me, AND SAW MY WORKS FOR FORTY YEARS."

Proverbs 28

"He who covers his transgressions will not prosper, but whoever confesses and forsakes his sins will obtain mercy. Blessed (happy, fortunate, and to be envied) is the man who reverently and worshipfully fears [the Lord] at all times [regardless of circumstances], but he who hardens his heart will fall into calamity."

To repent means to change your mind, not your heart. When we are saved, we are given a new heart, the heart of Jesus. Our heart doesn't have to be changed, our minds do, and that is what "the renewing of your minds" means. The listing of 40 verses that don't apply to the argument only clouds your answer with words and much speaking. My previous post is biblically sound. Do you honestly think that you repent once and that is it? Repentance is an ongoing process of changing your mindset. You can use the bible to call me a fool, that is fine, but at least use the concordance to get the definitions straight.

[Mims44 1,864]

Let's throw a monkey wrench in the discussion. considering Old testament, since I'm better equipped at that.

Why does Egyptian records never show semitic slave ownership? Why does it show no facts of slavery at all? Besides of course the 6 months people who were new citizens worked for the egyptian government.

Why is there no archeological facts showing from the millions of escaping Jews from Egypt? We can follow the path of a much smaller amount of Ceruleans into America from thousands of years prior to the Exodus, why is there nothing to support the Judaic leave of Israel?

Why is Asheera never mentioned outside of the oldest books of Judaism? She was the wife of El, the god of Abraham. Why is she removed? Why does Asheera and Els prodigal son YHWH become one with El in later texts? Is the move of the Gods El and YHWH from father and son to being one true almighty god reflected in the new testament of God and Jesus being one?

Why if there is only one God does the religion of Abrahams commandments say, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" if there were no other gods it should be worded differently right?

.... And before anyone gets pissy. I play devils advocate because it strengthens your faith by having to answer hard questions concerning your faith.

No. I am happy to discuss. I will only prove that I do not have all the answers but can hopefully show some merit in having faith in it.

"Why does Egyptian records never show semitic slave ownership?"

So if Hebrews had there own territory, skilled laborers, and fierce fighters, as the Bible claims, then there would be no record of slave ownership. The Egyptians did not own individual Hebrew slaves. The question is, were they free to just leave? Was there risk of violence if they decided to leave? What would it do for Egypts economy? It's military?

Another thing to think about: There would be no paper trail of me bullying a kid to give me his lunch money and do my homework. Just a threat of violence.

"Why is there no archeological facts showing from the millions of escaping Jews from Egypt?"

Where are you looking and what are you looking for?

Egypt watches over every dig with a careful eye. They halted BYU's dig over comments made. http://www.sltrib.co...stores-egyptian

The route of the Exodus (whatever it may be) is thru Muslim areas. Is there any chance any evidence to Jewish claims could have been removed during the Ottoman Empire? Heck, they (muslims) buried most of Jerusalem and the Jews are still sifting thru the trash and digging ancient sites up to this very day.

"Why is Asheera never mentioned outside of the oldest books of Judaism?"

The bible claims that Abraham himself was pulled from Babylon. The bible claims he brought others with him and I have no doubt some brought Idol worship with them. Perfect mixture of Abraham and Ishtar and you have Asheera (aka: the virgin mary, Diana, Osiris, etc...)!!! The Torah does speak on this subject but in a very negative light. Exodus 34 "Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles"

Asheera was pagan worship before the bible claims Jews step foot in Israel. The northern tribe (and then Judah) assimilated their practices and new myths and pagan worship was born. (see Catholic church for a modern example of assimilation)

The bible does not shy from this fact but openly testifies to the fact. The kingdoms forsake their GOD and his TORAH.

1 Kings 14

"Judah did evil in the sight of the LORD, and they provoked Him to jealousy more than all that their fathers had done, with the sins which they committed. For they also built for themselves high places and sacred pillars and Asherim on every high hill and beneath every luxuriant tree. There were also male cult prostitutes in the land. They did according to all the abominations of the nations which the LORD dispossessed before the sons of Israel"

"Why if there is only one God does the religion of Abrahams commandments..."

Would you feel better if I worded it this way?

Exodus 20

Then THE RULER(Elohim) spoke all these words:

I am Yeshua your RULER(Elohim), Who has brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

You shall have no other RULER(elohim) before or after Me.

{"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.}

Awesome answers:)

For 1; there is some evidence it comes from a misunderstanding of Egypts rules. You gave what you made for 6 months upon moving to Egypt. Except the Hebrews were nomadic and did not understand the concept. Also, once you left Egypt, if you then came back next year the 6 months started again. So to some of these Hebrews it might have seemed as though they were being enslaved whenever they came through.

for 2; It surely might be, heck if Darwin can use the counter argument of "I'm right, science today just can't prove it" then it is acceptable answer for most unknowns. We might find evidence tomorrow, or 20 years from now... who knows.

[aubfaninga 16]

To repent means to change your mind, not your heart. When we are saved, we are given a new heart, the heart of Jesus. Our heart doesn't have to be changed, our minds do, and that is what "the renewing of your minds" means. The listing of 40 verses that don't apply to the argument only clouds your answer with words and much speaking. My previous post is biblically sound. Do you honestly think that you repent once and that is it? Repentance is an ongoing process of changing your mindset. You can use the bible to call me a fool, that is fine, but at least use the concordance to get the definitions straight.

I did not use scripture to call you a fool. I simply quoted a scripture. What your conscience did from that point is beyond my control. I have a great deal of reverence for you and your faith and have expressed it honestly on this forum. I pray that you can find that I am being sincere. I want us to continue our discussions but we cannot begin to think we are responding emotionally.

To think that I do not know that repentance is an ongoing process after admitting I have many sins that I currently struggle with is mind blowing. Once again it makes me question if you even listen to my personal testimony at all. Thankfully you have not showed the same spirit of the Pharisees by judging me by your own traditions and accepted norms like others do.

You said, "Repentance is an ongoing process of changing your mindet"

This was after I wrote.

"True repentance involves a change of heart and purpose, it inevitably results in a change of behavior and mind"

These are so similar that it could be left as an agreement. I only wish to continue because I am having a hard time reconciling the words.

When I say "heart" I am trying to assign a place that emotions arise from. When I say "mind" I am trying to assign a place of knowledge. I can't see how the process of repentance can begin and be sustained without an emotional response. Maybe Homosapien or another non believer can chime in and offer help to my confusion.

How can a non believer know they are sinning without first having an emotional spark? Without fear, love, or a feeling of guilt toward GOD why bother renewing the mind? If this emotional tool is changed to hate or resentment toward GOD can the renewal of the mind continue?

Then we have Satan. Satan knows that GOD exists and he has extensive knowledge of scripture. What other disconnect can there be other than his emotional attachment to himself, man, and GOD?

Simply knowing and accepting who your wife is can only produce minimal loyalty. Your emotional connection is what drives your loyalty.

Let me use Paul and his example of the Corinthian repentance.

2 Corinthians 7

"Yet I am glad now, not because you were pained, but because you were pained into repentance [and so turned back to God]; for you felt a grief such as God meant you to feel, so that in nothing you might suffer loss through us or harm for what we did.

For godly grief and the pain God is permitted to direct, produce a repentance that leads and contributes to salvation and deliverance from evil, and it never brings regret; but worldly grief (the hopeless sorrow that is characteristic of the pagan world) is deadly [breeding and ending in death]. For [you can look back now and] observe what this same godly sorrow has done for you and has produced in you: what eagerness and earnest care to explain and clear yourselves [of all complicity in the condoning of incest], what indignation [at the sin], what alarm, what yearning, what zeal [to do justice to all concerned], what readiness to mete out punishment [to the offender]! At every point you have proved yourselves cleared and guiltless in the matter."

[alexava 6,973]

help me understand something above. The ark built by Noah, large enough to sail with a pair of every animal on earth thousands of years ago. Was that possible? Is it possible today?

Now you know that I cannot give any answer that will satisfy you but I will ramble anyway. All I can do is offer thoughts and even more questions.

First off, I don't feel the scriptures are in competition with science nor can the two be compared.

Ex: If I were to ask a thermal physicist, "why the water was boiling on my stove", I am sure he could give me a more than adequate answer.

If I were to ask my wife she would say, "you wanted Tea".

Both answers are correct!!!

The unknown and power of belief...

Some say we did not put a man on the moon while others think they are crazy. Some say 9-11 was an inside job and others don't. I have seen people almost come to blows over Christopher Columbus and Leif Erikson. More recently is the Obama/muslim debate. Or what about Weegs and I? :pc:/>

Some have absolute unwavering faith in Evolution but never bother to see if there is any truth to the "irreducibly complex" theory. The tension between these two ideas only breeds more knowledge and curiosity so it is a wonderful dichotomy. I love the new findings that come out from both sides. Yes, I also enjoy jokingly asking the evolutionists to remove the manipulator/creator (aka scientist) out of the room, sit there and watch the empty petri dish, and come get me when something happens. :popcorn:/>

Lots of observable things are yet to be explained.

What is an Alabama fan and where do they come from?

Could we build an exact replica of the Great Pyramid in the time frame they did?

Can we recreate the mortar the Egyptians used? (which is harder than the stone)

How did they build Sacsayhuaman?

What is up with Pumapunku?

The ancients are known for moving some really big and heavy stones as well. They were not chumps at innovation. We still to this day try to recreate how they moved monolithic stones and What in the WORLD were they planning on doing with a 1600 ton stone in Baalbek? :muscles:/>

Isaac Newton believed that man could fly. Some probably laughed.

Isaac Newton also proposed the Earth was not perfectly round. Some probably laughed.

Isaac Newton also believed in the bible. He would have been a cool person to theorize Noahs ark.

Could we rebuild a full sized replica of Noahs Ark today? Sure, to this best of our knowledge of what is given in scripture. With enough money we can do many things. Just ask the Arab Emirates. (google Netherlands Noahs Ark)

How much resources did Noah have? King Solomon built a temple with a lot of resources, allies, and labor and most likely never lifted a finger.

Maybe some answers can be found within these links. Maybe not.

http://www.icr.org/article/8039/

http://www.independe...ay-9234799.html

http://www.christian...n/edn-c013.html

Another non biblical question just for fun. Why does the Chinese character for a boat combine vessel, with person, and the number 8?

thx for the response. I will try your links when i can. I have asked this question to others and get an irritated answer akin to a kid questioning the reality of Santa Claus; "just believe it or you get no toys".

[aubfaninga 16]

Awesome answers:)

For 1; there is some evidence it comes from a misunderstanding of Egypts rules. You gave what you made for 6 months upon moving to Egypt. Except the Hebrews were nomadic and did not understand the concept. Also, once you left Egypt, if you then came back next year the 6 months started again. So to some of these Hebrews it might have seemed as though they were being enslaved whenever they came through.

for 2; It surely might be, heck if Darwin can use the counter argument of "I'm right, science today just can't prove it" then it is acceptable answer for most unknowns. We might find evidence tomorrow, or 20 years from now... who knows.

May I ask for some direction on where to research deeper into the things you have written about Egyptian rules and slavery?

I have found some things regarding their laws but not enough to quench my fascination with these people. Many point out the similarities between their laws and the Torah but because of my extreme bias, I attribute that to the influence of the biblical Joseph with the pharaoh of his time. Big beam in my eye on these matters.

[aubfaninga 16]

thx for the response. I will try your links when i can. I have asked this question to others and get an irritated answer akin to a kid questioning the reality of Santa Claus; "just believe it or you get no toys".

LOL.

Old Santa Claus. My first experience with "Christian" loved ones telling a lie that led to my first heart ache. He is like a bad social science experiment.

I don't rely much on the "you just gotta believe" answer after my childhood trauma.

[Mims44 1,864]

Awesome answers:)

For 1; there is some evidence it comes from a misunderstanding of Egypts rules. You gave what you made for 6 months upon moving to Egypt. Except the Hebrews were nomadic and did not understand the concept. Also, once you left Egypt, if you then came back next year the 6 months started again. So to some of these Hebrews it might have seemed as though they were being enslaved whenever they came through.

for 2; It surely might be, heck if Darwin can use the counter argument of "I'm right, science today just can't prove it" then it is acceptable answer for most unknowns. We might find evidence tomorrow, or 20 years from now... who knows.

May I ask for some direction on where to research deeper into the things you have written about Egyptian rules and slavery?

I have found some things regarding their laws but not enough to quench my fascination with these people. Many point out the similarities between their laws and the Torah but because of my extreme bias, I attribute that to the influence of the biblical Joseph with the pharaoh of his time. Big beam in my eye on these matters.

Johan Gottfried Herder is a good one to look up for his historical studies.

Heinrich Ewald, also good... mostly just Israel though.

WM Countryman, Dirt, Greed, and Sex (nevermind the title.. it's a good read covering laws of the ancient world. again mostly the semitic tribes of the fertile crescent. But Egypt is in there too)

And WM Propp's work on examining historical accuracies and commentary on Exodus.

There's a bunch more, but I remember enjoying those the most.

My notes are also faded now, so there's a decent chance I missed other good ones.

PS: They are also all scholarly works, used in multiple universities. (though some are dated)

[Mims44 1,864]

I would add though, I don't know your beliefs exactly.

Most Christians/Jews would have no problem with the context in the books, there is as far as I remember no theist Vs atheist statements contained within.

But if you are a literal Bible believer it will likely make you angry or shake your faith. So if you believe the Bible is 100% true in the most literal sense and nothing has ever been changed, added, or removed you might want to steer clear.

Just don't wanna piss anyone off:)

[DKW 86 7,410]

This is why i took this off forum...