A critique of transgenderism

[homersapien 11,354]

Here's the thing though, when you state things like you do, you come off as a jerk. Did I say that it was gospel? I said it was interesting. I see things posted by many people here that I laugh at, but I don't belittle them by calling their post garbage.

Don't take it personally, but a lot of it is garbage.

But that's OK if you want to discuss it. You need to be exposed to the actual science, such as it is.

[AUDub 11,131]

To be really honest, I believe that we do have tendencies when we are born to move toward things in the environment that we are raised in. Influences in our early years can push us in certain directions. For example, a child that grows up in an abusive home has a tendency to become abusive as an adult. A child that grows up in a home where alcoholism is an issue, has the tendency to migrate toward alcoholism. A child that grows up in a home where the father was absent or abusive might have the tendency to seek male affection or love when he is older. A female child that grows up in a home where the father was abusive might have the tendency to hate men and migrate toward women to seek affection. Our environment and situations play a huge role in how we are shaped and the things we seek when we get older. Of course there are no absolutes.

SPLC to the rescue!

]MYTH # 3

People become homosexual because they were sexually abused as children or there was a deficiency in sex-role modeling by their parents.

THE ARGUMENT

Many anti-gay rights activists claim that homosexuality is a mental disorder caused by some psychological trauma or aberration in childhood. This argument is used to counter the common observation that no one, gay or straight, consciously chooses his or her sexual orientation. Joseph Nicolosi, a founder of the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality, said in 2009 that "if you traumatize a child in a particular way, you will create a homosexual condition." He also has repeatedly said, "Fathers, if you don't hug your sons, some other man will."

A side effect of this argument is the demonization of parents of gay men and lesbians, who are led to wonder if they failed to protect a child against sexual abuse or failed as role models in some important way. In October 2010, Kansas State University family studies professor Walter Schumm released a related study in the British Journal of Biosocial Science, which used to be the Eugenics Review. Schumm argued that gay couples are more likely than heterosexuals to raise gay or lesbian children through modeling “gay behavior.” Schumm, who has also argued that lesbian relationships are unstable, has ties to discredited psychologist and anti-LGBT fabulist Paul Cameron, the author of numerous completely baseless “studies” about the alleged evils of homosexuality. Critics of Schumm’s study note that he appears to have merely aggregated anecdotal data, resulting in a biased sample.

THE FACTS

No scientifically sound study has definitively linked sexual orientation or identity with parental role-modeling or childhood sexual abuse.

The American Psychiatric Association noted in a 2000 fact sheet, available on the organization’s website dealing with gay, lesbian and bisexual issues, that sexual abuse does not appear to be any more prevalent among children who grow up and identify as gay, lesbian or bisexual than in children who grow up and identify as heterosexual.

Similarly, the National Organization on Male Sexual Victimization notes on its website that "experts in the human sexuality field do not believe that premature sexual experiences play a significant role in late adolescent or adult sexual orientation" and added that it's unlikely that anyone can make another person gay or heterosexual.

Advocates for Youth, an organization that works in the U.S. and abroad in the field of adolescent reproductive and sexual health also has stated that sexual abuse does not “cause” heterosexual youth to become gay.

In 2009, Dr. Warren Throckmorton, a psychologist at the Christian Grove City College, noted in an analysis that “the research on sexual abuse among GLBT populations is often misused to make inferences about causation [of homosexuality].”

[homersapien 11,354]

Which tells me that it is more behavioral than biological.

Sexuality is perhaps a little more complex than you may think. The science certainly suggests so.

[AUDub 11,131]

We should divide it.

But I just realized that I no longer have my old bookmarks on homosexuality - which is a different topic that transgenderism. I did a scientific literature review of homosexuality hopefully I can recover my references instead of repeating the research.

There's a lot of misinformation out there being actively promoted, particularly from the "reformation" crowd. Weegs touched on a lot of it.

Frankly I am more interested in trans-gender research as I haven't really searched for it.

Part of what set me off about the copypasta was that it referenced NARTH. If you've never heard of them, NARTH claims homosexuality can be fully cured though "conversion therapy", and that homosexuality is a choice, and worse, a disease that should be cured.

In essence, they basically teach you to hate who you are and make an effort to repress it rather than accept it. Not exactly a healthy way to go through life.

The rationalwiki and Wikipedia articles are a good place to start your research on transgender. Lot of useful information.

[homersapien 11,354]

We should divide it.

But I just realized that I no longer have my old bookmarks on homosexuality - which is a different topic that transgenderism. I did a scientific literature review of homosexuality hopefully I can recover my references instead of repeating the research.

There's a lot of misinformation out there being actively promoted, particularly from the "reformation" crowd. Weegs touched on a lot of it.

Frankly I am more interested in trans-gender research as I haven't really searched for it.

Part of what set me off about the copypasta was that it referenced NARTH. If you've never heard of them, NARTH claims homosexuality can be fully cured though "conversion therapy", and that homosexuality is a choice, and worse, a disease that should be cured.

In essence, they basically teach you to hate who you are and make an effort to repress it rather than accept it. Not exactly a healthy way to go through life.

The rationalwiki and Wikipedia articles are a good place to start your research on transgender. Lot of useful information.

That's who I was referring to by the "reformation crowd". Are they even still around?

And you are right about the wiki sites. They virtually provide the Lit reviews for you.

[AUDub 11,131]

We should divide it.

But I just realized that I no longer have my old bookmarks on homosexuality - which is a different topic that transgenderism. I did a scientific literature review of homosexuality hopefully I can recover my references instead of repeating the research.

There's a lot of misinformation out there being actively promoted, particularly from the "reformation" crowd. Weegs touched on a lot of it.

Frankly I am more interested in trans-gender research as I haven't really searched for it.

Part of what set me off about the copypasta was that it referenced NARTH. If you've never heard of them, NARTH claims homosexuality can be fully cured though "conversion therapy", and that homosexuality is a choice, and worse, a disease that should be cured.

In essence, they basically teach you to hate who you are and make an effort to repress it rather than accept it. Not exactly a healthy way to go through life.

The rationalwiki and Wikipedia articles are a good place to start your research on transgender. Lot of useful information.

That's who I was referring to by the "reformation crowd". Are they even still around?

And you are right about the wiki sites. They virtually provide the Lit reviews for you.

Oh, yes. NARTH changed their name last year to "Alliance for Therapeutic Choice and Scientific Integrity," similar to how North Korea calls themselves The Democratic People's Republic of Korea. Needed more inherent lies in their name, I suppose.

Reparative therapy is still very much alive and kicking. Michele Bachman's husband runs a firm that claims it can "cure the gays."

[Weegle777 78]

Wow. So you see one snippet and jump to a conclusion and dismiss it all? Relax and read it again. I mean, if I were to be like you guys, the first word or sentence that I read from your posts would make me just dismiss everything you post. And it's funny to me how the only highlighted part of my post was about homosexuality. Very militant and not tolerant of you.

[TitanTiger 20,471]

IMO, this is a simple argument from authority. The question it begs is who determines what a trans-gender person "really is" and on what basis?

How is the side that believes transgenderism to be a real thing that should be affirmed rather than treated as a disorder not subject to the same critique and questions?

I would say the answer goes beyond whatever physical characteristics one is born with, or transgenders would not exist to start with.

Of course it does, hence the (apt) comparison to anorexia nervosa.

So that opens up the can of worms of what exactly determines one's sexuality?

It opens the question of where the individual resides. I submit it resides in the "big head" rather than the "little head" (although my wife might disagree )

I think nature gives us excellent clues 99% of the time. I don't think we should just accept at face value claims that someone "feels" like they are something other than what nature clearly tells us they are. There are entire and completely sincere communities of people online in places like tumblr of "otherkin": people who literally believe that though they were born with the body of a human being, their 'true self', what they identify as on the inside is some other species. Some believe they are a wolf, others some sort of plant.

The "big head" doesn't always work properly.

This is not an issue of what equipment you have as much as it is of your self-identity. And sexuality is a very old function so it probably resides deep in the brain.

I think it's both. And I think that just as we don't tell someone who is clearly too skinny and suffering from anorexia that their "self-identity" is a-ok, neither should we do so with transgenderism.

Beyond this major flaw, his argument includes some faulty analogies, but they are secondary IMO.

I think the analogies were actually pretty good in that they expose the cracks in a notion that a person is whoever their mind tells them they "really" are on the inside. This article goes into some of this further and I think expounds on the best of the analogous comparisons...anorexia and body dysmorphic disorder:

...policy makers and the media are doing no favors either to the public or the transgendered by treating their confusions as a right in need of defending rather than as a mental disorder that deserves understanding, treatment and prevention. This intensely felt sense of being transgendered constitutes a mental disorder in two respects. The first is that the idea of sex misalignment is simply mistaken—it does not correspond with physical reality. The second is that it can lead to grim psychological outcomes.

The transgendered suffer a disorder of "assumption" like those in other disorders familiar to psychiatrists. With the transgendered, the disordered assumption is that the individual differs from what seems given in nature—namely one's maleness or femaleness. Other kinds of disordered assumptions are held by those who suffer from anorexia and bulimia nervosa, where the assumption that departs from physical reality is the belief by the dangerously thin that they are overweight.

With body dysmorphic disorder, an often socially crippling condition, the individual is consumed by the assumption "I'm ugly." These disorders occur in subjects who have come to believe that some of their psycho-social conflicts or problems will be resolved if they can change the way that they appear to others. Such ideas work like ruling passions in their subjects' minds and tend to be accompanied by a solipsistic argument.

For the transgendered, this argument holds that one's feeling of "gender" is a conscious, subjective sense that, being in one's mind, cannot be questioned by others. The individual often seeks not just society's tolerance of this "personal truth" but affirmation of it. Here rests the support for "transgender equality," the demands for government payment for medical and surgical treatments, and for access to all sex-based public roles and privileges...

http://www.wsj.com/articles/paul-mchugh-transgender-surgery-isnt-the-solution-1402615120

[AUDub 11,131]

Wow. So you see one snippet and jump to a conclusion and dismiss it all?

No.

Relax and read it again.

Did. Still fractally wrong.

I mean, if I were to be like you guys, the first word or sentence that I read from your posts would make me just dismiss everything you post.

:-\

You really don't know us, then.

And it's funny to me how the only highlighted part of my post was about homosexuality. Very militant and not tolerant of you.

The post I'm critiquing deals exclusively with homosexuality. You're the one that brought it up, after all.

[DKW 86 7,411]

One last thing i want to say on this, LGBT folks do not, as a rule, consider Transgenders to be homosexual. Most Gay males i know think that Transgenders are ruining it for the LGBT Community as a whole.

I am out of this conversation now. I support and can understand homosexual people. I have known them all my life.

I do not understand this at all. And maybe i am the one that needs to do more research, but I cannot see anyone going thru the ridicule, etc of transgender therapy, either PRE or POST-OP, and wanting to put up with that amount of abuse. I know gay males that have no use for the Transgendered crowd and actually think they are mentally disturbed at some level.

BTW, i worked close by a state funded Transgender Home in HSV years ago. I still just felt sorry for those folks i met daily in dealing with their everyday issues.

[Weegle777 78]

Wow. So you see one snippet and jump to a conclusion and dismiss it all?

No.

Relax and read it again.

Did. Still fractally wrong.

I mean, if I were to be like you guys, the first word or sentence that I read from your posts would make me just dismiss everything you post.

:-\/>

You really don't know us, then.

And it's funny to me how the only highlighted part of my post was about homosexuality. Very militant and not tolerant of you.

The post I'm critiquing deals exclusively with homosexuality. You're the one that brought it up, after all.

They did the research and studies on it. You don't agree, so now you will quote other researchers that fit your argument and tell me that they trump the ones listed in my post. Easy to figure out. Doesn't make those that fit your beliefs any more correct than the ones listed in my post.

[AUDub 11,131]

They did the research and studies on it.

And they mined several studies for evidence that, at best, only vaguely support the narrative they're trying to push. They also made this silly appeal to motive:

Much of this research has been done by gays that have a vested interest in the outcome. Hence much of their research is in fact biased, as is admitted by those who favor homosexuality.

You don't agree, so now you will quote other researchers that fit your argument and tell me that they trump the ones listed in my post.

Why bother? You'll simply dismiss it out of hand. I could post page after page of studies on the subject. It wouldn't make a dent. You've got your conclusion, your silly little "bible-truths" link and you're sticking to it, evidence be damned.

Easy to figure out. Doesn't make those that fit your beliefs any more correct than the ones listed in my post.

All opinions do not deserve equal weight, Weegs. This isn't one of those situations where the truth is somewhere in the middle. One side is simply flat out wrong.

[Weegle777 78]

They did the research and studies on it.

And they mined several studies for evidence that, at best, only vaguely support the narrative they're trying to push. They also made this silly appeal to motive:

Much of this research has been done by gays that have a vested interest in the outcome. Hence much of their research is in fact biased, as is admitted by those who favor homosexuality.

You don't agree, so now you will quote other researchers that fit your argument and tell me that they trump the ones listed in my post.

Why bother? You'll simply dismiss it out of hand. I could post page after page of studies on the subject. It wouldn't make a dent. You've got your conclusion, your silly little "bible-truths" link and you're sticking to it, evidence be damned.

Easy to figure out. Doesn't make those that fit your beliefs any more correct than the ones listed in my post.

All opinions do not deserve equal weight, Weegs. This isn't one of those situations where the truth is somewhere in the middle. One side is simply flat out wrong.

And you can't bring yourself to admit that it is yours.

[Weegle777 78]

Let's just agree to disagree.

[AUDub 11,131]

They did the research and studies on it.

And they mined several studies for evidence that, at best, only vaguely support the narrative they're trying to push. They also made this silly appeal to motive:

Much of this research has been done by gays that have a vested interest in the outcome. Hence much of their research is in fact biased, as is admitted by those who favor homosexuality.

You don't agree, so now you will quote other researchers that fit your argument and tell me that they trump the ones listed in my post.

Why bother? You'll simply dismiss it out of hand. I could post page after page of studies on the subject. It wouldn't make a dent. You've got your conclusion, your silly little "bible-truths" link and you're sticking to it, evidence be damned.

Easy to figure out. Doesn't make those that fit your beliefs any more correct than the ones listed in my post.

All opinions do not deserve equal weight, Weegs. This isn't one of those situations where the truth is somewhere in the middle. One side is simply flat out wrong.

And you can't bring yourself to admit that it is yours.

Mmm hmm

I'd still ask that you do some research on the subject, Weegs. Might open your eyes a little bit.

Let's just agree to disagree.

Deal.

[AUFAN78 3,890]

While I claim no expertise on the subject, I will restate claims of two individuals i consider friends.

Male and female, both were previously admitted gay. Today they are both happily married to the opposite sex in loving relationships with children. When queried about their respective "prior gay lives" they emphatically state it was simply a sexual choice at the time. No inborn trait, no gene, but rather a simple choice.

I imagine the same could be said of Bruce Jenner.

How can they be sure of that?

Regardless, it's possible for otherwise heterosexual people to engage in consensual homosexual acts. It happens all the time in prisons (for example).

It's also possible for people to identify both - or either - way. It's called bisexuality.

I honestly don't know. I do know these two are gifted intelligent people. I'd imagine they'd know as much as a man who thinks he has a woman living inside his body. Which begs to question, how could said man be sure of that?

[alexava 6,973]

One last thing i want to say on this, LGBT folks do not, as a rule, consider Transgenders to be homosexual. Most Gay males i know think that Transgenders are ruining it for the LGBT Community as a whole.

I am out of this conversation now. I support and can understand homosexual people. I have known them all my life.

I do not understand this at all. And maybe i am the one that needs to do more research, but I cannot see anyone going thru the ridicule, etc of transgender therapy, either PRE or POST-OP, and wanting to put up with that amount of abuse. I know gay males that have no use for the Transgendered crowd and actually think they are mentally disturbed at some level.

BTW, i worked close by a state funded Transgender Home in HSV years ago. I still just felt sorry for those folks i met daily in dealing with their everyday issues.

we agree

[TitanTiger 20,471]

While I claim no expertise on the subject, I will restate claims of two individuals i consider friends.

Male and female, both were previously admitted gay. Today they are both happily married to the opposite sex in loving relationships with children. When queried about their respective "prior gay lives" they emphatically state it was simply a sexual choice at the time. No inborn trait, no gene, but rather a simple choice.

I imagine the same could be said of Bruce Jenner.

How can they be sure of that?

Regardless, it's possible for otherwise heterosexual people to engage in consensual homosexual acts. It happens all the time in prisons (for example).

It's also possible for people to identify both - or either - way. It's called bisexuality.

I honestly don't know. I do know these two are gifted intelligent people. I'd imagine they'd know as much as a man who thinks he has a women living inside his body. Which begs to question, how could said man be sure of that?

Good point.

[homersapien 11,354]

I'm not hiding from you Titan and Weegs.

I was busy yesterday and had a root canal this morning which is really bothering me. I'm going to take some narcotics and go to bed.

[AUFAN78 3,890]

I'm not hiding from you Titan and Weegs.

I was busy yesterday and had a root canal this morning which is really bothering me. I'm going to take some narcotics and go to bed.

Best wishes dude!

[Weegle777 78]

I'm not hiding from you Titan and Weegs.

I was busy yesterday and had a root canal this morning which is really bothering me. I'm going to take some narcotics and go to bed.

Don't blame you man, get well. Root canals suck.

[Mims44 1,864]

Question I always like to pose to people who are not sure if it is a genetic disposition or not.

When did you decide you were a man or woman? at what age did you make the decision?

At what age did you decide, well.. I don't feel like banging boys, think I'm gonna try for women?

If you never made that decision then likely it's a non cognizant decision:)

[DKW 86 7,411]

I'm not hiding from you Titan and Weegs.

I was busy yesterday and had a root canal this morning which is really bothering me. I'm going to take some narcotics and go to bed.

Detached a tendon in my shoulder. Surgery was one week ago. God loves us and gave us hydrocodone...

[Weegle777 78]

I'm not hiding from you Titan and Weegs.

I was busy yesterday and had a root canal this morning which is really bothering me. I'm going to take some narcotics and go to bed.

Detached a tendon in my shoulder. Surgery was one week ago. God loves us and gave us hydrocodone...

Good grief brother, I bet that crap hurt. Fast healing to you!

[aubfaninga 16]

We should divide it.

But I just realized that I no longer have my old bookmarks on homosexuality - which is a different topic that transgenderism. I did a scientific literature review of homosexuality hopefully I can recover my references instead of repeating the research.

There's a lot of misinformation out there being actively promoted, particularly from the "reformation" crowd. Weegs touched on a lot of it.

Frankly I am more interested in trans-gender research as I haven't really searched for it.

Part of what set me off about the copypasta was that it referenced NARTH. If you've never heard of them, NARTH claims homosexuality can be fully cured though "conversion therapy", and that homosexuality is a choice, and worse, a disease that should be cured.

In essence, they basically teach you to hate who you are and make an effort to repress it rather than accept it. Not exactly a healthy way to go through life.

The rationalwiki and Wikipedia articles are a good place to start your research on transgender. Lot of useful information.

I was just enjoying reading and your comment raised another question.

Can any support for transgenderism be seen as teaching someone to hate who they actually are? Especially to the point of physically changing it rather than accepting it.