Aufan59 51 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 A ball falls to the ground in a predictable, deterministic way. Water boils and freezes in a predictable, deterministic way. The entire history scientific effort has been to describe how our environment behaves in a predictable, deterministic way. All of physics is evidence of a deterministic universe. Would physics even be a field of study if the universe weren't deterministic? The only contrast to this thinking is that at the quantum level, things behave randomly (though in the aggregate they seem to behave predictably). Neither randomness nor predictability bode well for the idea of free will. It is a hard pill for you to swallow, much like evolution is a hard pill for others to swallow, which is why I find the comparison interesting. I understand where you are coming from, (I think). But I am having a hard time with the temporal aspects in applying a deterministic model to the concept of "free will". How could determinism account for options that have yet to be taken? Sure, it kicks in as soon as the option is chosen - the "present" - and the past, but I still have the freedom to choose a particular option. What am I missing? :dunno:/> Is it every potential option comes with its own built-in determining factors so any conceivable option is deterministic by definition? It's funny though. I feel pretty comfortable with randomness. ;D/> (No "set-up" intended ) If the universe behaves in a predictable manner, there are no options to account for. I am 'choosing' to respond to this post just as water 'chooses' to boil or the ball 'chooses' to drop to the ground. Water doesn't choose to boil, a certain set of conditions causes it to boil. Am I choosing to reply, or have a certain set of conditions caused me to reply? The matter we have observed and studied behaves in predictable manners. Isn't it a fair assumption that the matter inside our brains behaves in a predictable way, just as the matter outside of our brains seems to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TitanTiger 20,469 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 A ball falls to the ground in a predictable, deterministic way. Water boils and freezes in a predictable, deterministic way. The entire history scientific effort has been to describe how our environment behaves in a predictable, deterministic way. All of physics is evidence of a deterministic universe. Would physics even be a field of study if the universe weren't deterministic? The only contrast to this thinking is that at the quantum level, things behave randomly (though in the aggregate they seem to behave predictably). Neither randomness nor predictability bode well for the idea of free will. It is a hard pill for you to swallow, much like evolution is a hard pill for others to swallow, which is why I find the comparison interesting. I understand where you are coming from, (I think). But I am having a hard time with the temporal aspects in applying a deterministic model to the concept of "free will". How could determinism account for options that have yet to be taken? Sure, it kicks in as soon as the option is chosen - the "present" - and the past, but I still have the freedom to choose a particular option. What am I missing? :dunno:/> Is it every potential option comes with its own built-in determining factors so any conceivable option is deterministic by definition? It's funny though. I feel pretty comfortable with randomness. ;D/> (No "set-up" intended ) If the universe behaves in a predictable manner, there are no options to account for. I am 'choosing' to respond to this post just as water 'chooses' to boil or the ball 'chooses' to drop to the ground. Water doesn't choose to boil, a certain set of conditions causes it to boil. Am I choosing to reply, or have a certain set of conditions caused me to reply? The matter we have observed and studied behaves in predictable manners. Isn't it a fair assumption that the matter inside our brains behaves in a predictable way, just as the matter outside of our brains seems to? Do you really think biochemical processes in our brains behave in perfectly predictable ways just like gravity, or atoms bonding, or the speed of light? And even if you did, and even if you thought it a "fair" assumption, what would make it a fairer assumption than the belief that our thought processes, while somewhat governed by mere biochemical processes cannot be distilled down so simply as to make everything we choose 'deterministic.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aufan59 51 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Either the biochemical processes in our brains behave in perfectly predictable ways, or they have an element of randomness, neither of which leaves room for free will. Why wouldn't our brains work the same way as the rest of the universe? It is not an issue of simplicity. Even if we had no idea how any of our biology worked, if our biological matter is governed by physics, then presumably our biological matter is deterministic. So far we've yet to see any reason to believe that our biological matter is not governed by physics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homersapien 11,352 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 A ball falls to the ground in a predictable, deterministic way. Water boils and freezes in a predictable, deterministic way. The entire history scientific effort has been to describe how our environment behaves in a predictable, deterministic way. All of physics is evidence of a deterministic universe. Would physics even be a field of study if the universe weren't deterministic? The only contrast to this thinking is that at the quantum level, things behave randomly (though in the aggregate they seem to behave predictably). Neither randomness nor predictability bode well for the idea of free will. It is a hard pill for you to swallow, much like evolution is a hard pill for others to swallow, which is why I find the comparison interesting. I understand where you are coming from, (I think). But I am having a hard time with the temporal aspects in applying a deterministic model to the concept of "free will". How could determinism account for options that have yet to be taken? Sure, it kicks in as soon as the option is chosen - the "present" - and the past, but I still have the freedom to choose a particular option. What am I missing? :dunno:/> Is it every potential option comes with its own built-in determining factors so any conceivable option is deterministic by definition? It's funny though. I feel pretty comfortable with randomness. ;D/> (No "set-up" intended ) If the universe behaves in a predictable manner, there are no options to account for. I am 'choosing' to respond to this post just as water 'chooses' to boil or the ball 'chooses' to drop to the ground. Water doesn't choose to boil, a certain set of conditions causes it to boil. Am I choosing to reply, or have a certain set of conditions caused me to reply? Yeah, but I have the freedom to either turn on the stove or not. [The matter we have observed and studied behaves in predictable manners. Isn't it a fair assumption that the matter inside our brains behaves in a predictable way, just as the matter outside of our brains seems to? Sure it does. But that behavior is still initiated as a result of my choosing it before acting. So, is the determinist assumption that whichever "degree of freedom" I choose (or "think" I choose), it was a result of deterministic factors? The choice itself is the result of deterministic factors. This sounds like predestination measured after the fact. But it's interesting to contemplate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TitanTiger 20,469 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 And you thought the Christian Calvinists were bad... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUDub 11,131 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 And you thought the Christian Calvinists were bad... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caleb1633 1,418 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 One thing I've learned in life in general: you can't go wrong with Darwin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUDub 11,131 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 One thing I've learned in life in general: you can't go wrong with Darwin. He came up with some really good ideas, and some really bad ideas, and they’ve been winnowed by experiment and evidence over the last century and a half, with the bad ones getting mostly discarded and the good ones being retained. We've come a long way since Darwin's time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caleb1633 1,418 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I was talking about in more of a broad sense. Like survival of he fittest. Possibly his best idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUDub 11,131 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 “Survival of the fittest” is the pop sci term coined by Herbert Spencer; Darwin didn’t care much for it, though he did use it in the fifth edition of On the Origin of Species. When he did use it, Darwin meant "better adapted for immediate, local environment", not the common modern meaning of "in the best physical shape." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aufan59 51 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Either the biochemical processes in our brains behave in perfectly predictable ways, or they have an element of randomness, neither of which leaves room for free will. Why wouldn't our brains work the same way as the rest of the universe? It is not an issue of simplicity. Even if we had no idea how any of our biology worked, if our biological matter is governed by physics, then presumably our biological matter is deterministic. So far we've yet to see any reason to believe that our biological matter is not governed by physics. A ball falls to the ground in a predictable, deterministic way. Water boils and freezes in a predictable, deterministic way. The entire history scientific effort has been to describe how our environment behaves in a predictable, deterministic way. All of physics is evidence of a deterministic universe. Would physics even be a field of study if the universe weren't deterministic? The only contrast to this thinking is that at the quantum level, things behave randomly (though in the aggregate they seem to behave predictably). Neither randomness nor predictability bode well for the idea of free will. It is a hard pill for you to swallow, much like evolution is a hard pill for others to swallow, which is why I find the comparison interesting. I understand where you are coming from, (I think). But I am having a hard time with the temporal aspects in applying a deterministic model to the concept of "free will". How could determinism account for options that have yet to be taken? Sure, it kicks in as soon as the option is chosen - the "present" - and the past, but I still have the freedom to choose a particular option. What am I missing? :dunno:/> Is it every potential option comes with its own built-in determining factors so any conceivable option is deterministic by definition? It's funny though. I feel pretty comfortable with randomness. ;D/> (No "set-up" intended ) If the universe behaves in a predictable manner, there are no options to account for. I am 'choosing' to respond to this post just as water 'chooses' to boil or the ball 'chooses' to drop to the ground. Water doesn't choose to boil, a certain set of conditions causes it to boil. Am I choosing to reply, or have a certain set of conditions caused me to reply? Yeah, but I have the freedom to either turn on the stove or not. ;)/> [The matter we have observed and studied behaves in predictable manners. Isn't it a fair assumption that the matter inside our brains behaves in a predictable way, just as the matter outside of our brains seems to? Sure it does. But that behavior is still initiated as a result of my choosing it before acting. So, is the determinist assumption that whichever "degree of freedom" I choose (or "think" I choose), it was a result of deterministic factors? The choice itself is the result of deterministic factors. This sounds like predestination measured after the fact. But it's interesting to contemplate. Yes. It is not really a choice if deterministic factors caused you to choose it. It may seem like a choice, but there is no reason to believe we can will the laws of physics away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TitanTiger 20,469 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 So in other words, our lives are meaningless. Even our attempts to imbue them with meaning are meaningless. Even caring whether they are meaningless or not is likewise meaningless. We can't really choose to give them meaning anyway. Nothing we do, say or feel is anything other than a deterministic, arbitrary, biochemical process that we have no ability to alter out of anything called the "will." Any feelings of caring, love, beauty, altruism...they simply happened to us; we could not have done otherwise. Meaningless. Pointless even. Whether we live, die or never existed in the first place makes no difference. How nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caleb1633 1,418 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 “Survival of the fittest” is the pop sci term coined by Herbert Spencer; Darwin didn’t care much for it, though he did use it in the fifth edition of On the Origin of Species. When he did use it, Darwin meant "better adapted for immediate, local environment", not the common modern meaning of "in the best physical shape." That's what I've always interpreted "survival of the fittest" to mean: that the environment a species is in, determines which species is most capable of surviving in it. So for instance, before agriculture came into existence the fittest to survive were hunters. After the advent of farming there was shift from the hunters to the farmers who were most fit to survive. Is that more what you're referring to? I'm not as well versed on the teachings of Darwin and evolution as many others are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homersapien 11,352 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Yes. It is not really a choice if deterministic factors caused you to choose it. It may seem like a choice, but there is no reason to believe we can will the laws of physics away. No ghost in the machine, huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caleb1633 1,418 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 So in other words, our lives are meaningless. Even our attempts to imbue them with meaning are meaningless. Even caring whether they are meaningless or not is likewise meaningless. We can't really choose to give them meaning anyway. Nothing we do, say or feel is anything other than a deterministic, arbitrary, biochemical process that we have no ability to alter out of anything called the "will." Any feelings of caring, love, beauty, altruism...they simply happened to us; we could not have done otherwise. Meaningless. Pointless even. Whether we live, die or never existed in the first place makes no difference. How nice. Maybe purpose is in the eye of the beholder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TitanTiger 20,469 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 So in other words, our lives are meaningless. Even our attempts to imbue them with meaning are meaningless. Even caring whether they are meaningless or not is likewise meaningless. We can't really choose to give them meaning anyway. Nothing we do, say or feel is anything other than a deterministic, arbitrary, biochemical process that we have no ability to alter out of anything called the "will." Any feelings of caring, love, beauty, altruism...they simply happened to us; we could not have done otherwise. Meaningless. Pointless even. Whether we live, die or never existed in the first place makes no difference. How nice. Maybe purpose is in the eye of the beholder? Purpose would be an illusion. To purpose or to have purpose entails choosing a course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUIH1 1,515 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Not really, but if someone insists on a literal six 24-hour day creation it doesn't make me think of them as a very serious person. Likewise if I hear someone talk about evolution as a purely naturalistic phenomenon and their belief that all this 'something' came from 'nothing', then I take them far less seriously. In terms of it affecting my vote, that largely depends on who the candidate is running against. Amen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aufan59 51 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 So in other words, our lives are meaningless. Even our attempts to imbue them with meaning are meaningless. Even caring whether they are meaningless or not is likewise meaningless. We can't really choose to give them meaning anyway. Nothing we do, say or feel is anything other than a deterministic, arbitrary, biochemical process that we have no ability to alter out of anything called the "will." Any feelings of caring, love, beauty, altruism...they simply happened to us; we could not have done otherwise. Meaningless. Pointless even. Whether we live, die or never existed in the first place makes no difference. How nice. How you find meaning is up to you. I don't find meaning in believing in something in which I see no evidence for, simply to trick myself into feeling better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caleb1633 1,418 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 So in other words, our lives are meaningless. Even our attempts to imbue them with meaning are meaningless. Even caring whether they are meaningless or not is likewise meaningless. We can't really choose to give them meaning anyway. Nothing we do, say or feel is anything other than a deterministic, arbitrary, biochemical process that we have no ability to alter out of anything called the "will." Any feelings of caring, love, beauty, altruism...they simply happened to us; we could not have done otherwise. Meaningless. Pointless even. Whether we live, die or never existed in the first place makes no difference. How nice. If that is how you feel So in other words, our lives are meaningless. Even our attempts to imbue them with meaning are meaningless. Even caring whether they are meaningless or not is likewise meaningless. We can't really choose to give them meaning anyway. Nothing we do, say or feel is anything other than a deterministic, arbitrary, biochemical process that we have no ability to alter out of anything called the "will." Any feelings of caring, love, beauty, altruism...they simply happened to us; we could not have done otherwise. Meaningless. Pointless even. Whether we live, die or never existed in the first place makes no difference. How nice. Maybe purpose is in the eye of the beholder? Purpose would be an illusion. To purpose or to have purpose entails choosing a course. So in other words, our lives are meaningless. Even our attempts to imbue them with meaning are meaningless. Even caring whether they are meaningless or not is likewise meaningless. We can't really choose to give them meaning anyway. Nothing we do, say or feel is anything other than a deterministic, arbitrary, biochemical process that we have no ability to alter out of anything called the "will." Any feelings of caring, love, beauty, altruism...they simply happened to us; we could not have done otherwise. Meaningless. Pointless even. Whether we live, die or never existed in the first place makes no difference. How nice. How you find meaning is up to you. I don't find meaning in believing in something in which I see no evidence for, simply to trick myself into feeling better. While I consider myself a Christian, I feel that people use God as a crutch. They often pray for Him to do things that are well within their control to change themselves. The times I've seen God intervene in my life were situations in which I had little to no control over. If people want to "find their purpose" then they should simply live a life of purpose. Quit waiting for it to fall out of the sky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homersapien 11,352 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 While I consider myself a Christian, I feel that people use God as a crutch. They often pray for Him to do things that are well within their control to change themselves. The times I've seen God intervene in my life were situations in which I had little to no control over. If people want to "find their purpose" then they should simply live a life of purpose. Quit waiting for it to fall out of the sky. Very nicely stated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TitanTiger 20,469 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 How you find meaning is up to you. In a deterministic universe, with no free will, there is no meaning to find. There's no way to pretty that up. Unless you want to fake it. I don't find meaning in believing in something in which I see no evidence for, simply to trick myself into feeling better. I wouldn't propose believing in something just to make myself feel better either. I believe in things because I believe them to be true. On the other hand, I can't think of any better example of believing in something just to make one feel better than to believe in a deterministic universe yet cling to a quaint notion like there being "meaning" or "purpose" in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caleb1633 1,418 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 You should look into writing cards for Hallmark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TitanTiger 20,469 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 You should look into writing cards for Hallmark I didn't say it's what I believe. I'm just pointing out the logical end of believing in a deterministic universe. There's really no other way to view it unless you want to tell fairy tales to yourself. I'm not a determinist so I don't have to come to terms with the implications of that view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caleb1633 1,418 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 You should look into writing cards for Hallmark I didn't say it's what I believe. I'm just pointing out the logical end of believing in a deterministic universe. There's really no other way to view it unless you want to tell fairy tales to yourself. I'm not a determinist so I don't have to come to terms with the implications of that view. Lol I was just screwin with ya man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aufan59 51 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 How you find meaning is up to you. In a deterministic universe, with no free will, there is no meaning to find. There's no way to pretty that up. Unless you want to fake it. I don't find meaning in believing in something in which I see no evidence for, simply to trick myself into feeling better. I wouldn't propose believing in something just to make myself feel better either. I believe in things because I believe them to be true. On the other hand, I can't think of any better example of believing in something just to make one feel better than to believe in a deterministic universe yet cling to a quaint notion like there being "meaning" or "purpose" in it. How you find meaning is up to you. In a deterministic universe, with no free will, there is no meaning to find. There's no way to pretty that up. Unless you want to fake it. I don't find meaning in believing in something in which I see no evidence for, simply to trick myself into feeling better. I wouldn't propose believing in something just to make myself feel better either. I believe in things because I believe them to be true. On the other hand, I can't think of any better example of believing in something just to make one feel better than to believe in a deterministic universe yet cling to a quaint notion like there being "meaning" or "purpose" in it. I'm quite comfortable with my life having no absolute meaning or purpose. Regardless, this is a most fascinating ride that I'm on. Though I'm confident my life has meaning and purpose to those who are close to me, regardless of whether or not free will is involved. If my only purpose, regardless of any "choice" I have made, was to be there for my family when we've gone through difficult times, does it matter if I really had a choice? If upon death you discovered that you were simply a predetermined pawn for Jesus to spread salvation to the innocents, would you find your life a waste that had no meaning nor purpose? In regards to your statements, your argument for free will is one of emotional disgust for determinism. I presume if you had a positive belief in freewill, you would start with that argument. However it seems that your belief in freewill is rooted in disgust of determinism, not a positive belief in free will. Emotional disbelief in the alternative hypothesis, for me, is not reason enough to discount the null. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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