Israel PM Race To Close To Call

[homersapien 11,352]

The only terrorism is coming from the Pals, who are backed by... Iran. Shocker ! And you wonder why Bibi doesn't trust Obama or Tehran ?

What's trust got to do with this?

Should we trust Iran? Of course not.

Should we trust Netanyahu? Of course not.

Should Netanyahu trust us? Of course not.

Trust is irrelevant here. Any viable agreement must stand on it's own without needing trust to prop it up. But it's certainly not going to happen if you don't even try.

Let's just address strategy: Is opposing negotiations with Iran going to improve Israel's future? Is rejecting a two-state solution going to improve Israel's future?

How exactly is that going to happen?

[AuburnNTexas 7,127]

I see both sides on this board have already decided they are right and there is no compromise. This is what started the issue in the first place.

There was a very large native Jewish population in what is now Israel well before 1948. Depending on whose statistics you believe Jews made up 33-45% of the population. Many of the Palestinians like the Jews had lived there for generations. However many of the Arabs were recent arrivals as the Jews had improved the economy in the areas that they lived in Arabs from other countries migrated to that area. So many of the Arabs were not native Palestinians. The UN and the British had set no limits on how many Arabs from other countries were allowed to migrate to Israel but had set a limit of 75,000 Jews per year.

There had been many proposals for a two state setup prior to 1948 when Israel declared their Statehood. The Jews were willing to negotiate for two states but the Arabs said no negotiation there will only be one Arab state. The Jews did not like the borders the UN was trying to set as it basically broke the Jewish state up into multiple units with no common borders. Jerusalem was an issue for both sides.

Now the Jews were not totally innocent when they realized there would not be a compromise. They used force to remove a large number of Palestinians from their land so that one they would have solid borders to defend and also to have a majority of Jews in the area they declared as their own Country.

The Arabs who have remained in Israel have a higher standard of living then most Arabs in the world and are allowed to take part in the democratic process. However they are often treated as second class citizens who don't appreciate that type of treatment but prefer it to the treatment they would get in other Arab countries.

Other Arab states despite their saying they support the Palestinians will not allow the Palestinians to become citizens in their countries even if they have lived there for generations they can't vote and usually can't own land in those countries.

Bibi originally was willing to negotiate for two states but both Hamas and the PLO have never recognized their right to exist. Recently the PLO has said they wouldn't exterminate the Jews if they won Hamas has not even stated that.

There is no doubt that the way the Palestinians are forced to live in the areas where they currently reside is part of the problem. No jobs, corrupt government (Hamas and the PLO), travel restrictions imposed by Israel, Import restrictions imposed by Israel creates aa population that wants change and blames Israel for everything.

Jewish settlers have removed Arabs from their lands and homes and continue to do so and they have done it by force as opposed to buying people out. Jews have restricted Arab water rights in parts of Israel.

Rocket attacks from the areas controlled by Hamas and sometimes from PLO controlled area is one of the reasons Israel has imposed restrictions but often the restrictions are so severe that they hurt all the people not just the leaders of Hamas and the PLO.

A two state solution is the only long term viable solution but the reality is until both sides are willing to accept the existence of the other there is no way to get to that point. If Hamas and the PLO would accept Israel's right to exist then Bibi probably would be forced by his own people to negotiate but until they do that there is no reason to say you will negotiate.

One difference that nobody has mentioned is that within Israel there are many Jews who are not as conservative as Bibi and they voice a differing view and they are allowed to. In the Palestinian territories people who voice a differing view are killed. This makes negotiations with Israel very difficult as the only voice allowed to speak for the Palestinians are the ones who want to exterminate Israel.

[cooltigger21 0]

I see both sides on this board have already decided they are right and there is no compromise. This is what started the issue in the first place.

There was a very large native Jewish population in what is now Israel well before 1948. Depending on whose statistics you believe Jews made up 33-45% of the population. Many of the Palestinians like the Jews had lived there for generations. However many of the Arabs were recent arrivals as the Jews had improved the economy in the areas that they lived in Arabs from other countries migrated to that area. So many of the Arabs were not native Palestinians. The UN and the British had set no limits on how many Arabs from other countries were allowed to migrate to Israel but had set a limit of 75,000 Jews per year.

There had been many proposals for a two state setup prior to 1948 when Israel declared their Statehood. The Jews were willing to negotiate for two states but the Arabs said no negotiation there will only be one Arab state. The Jews did not like the borders the UN was trying to set as it basically broke the Jewish state up into multiple units with no common borders. Jerusalem was an issue for both sides.

Now the Jews were not totally innocent when they realized there would not be a compromise. They used force to remove a large number of Palestinians from their land so that one they would have solid borders to defend and also to have a majority of Jews in the area they declared as their own Country.

The Arabs who have remained in Israel have a higher standard of living then most Arabs in the world and are allowed to take part in the democratic process. However they are often treated as second class citizens who don't appreciate that type of treatment but prefer it to the treatment they would get in other Arab countries.

Other Arab states despite their saying they support the Palestinians will not allow the Palestinians to become citizens in their countries even if they have lived there for generations they can't vote and usually can't own land in those countries.

Bibi originally was willing to negotiate for two states but both Hamas and the PLO have never recognized their right to exist. Recently the PLO has said they wouldn't exterminate the Jews if they won Hamas has not even stated that.

There is no doubt that the way the Palestinians are forced to live in the areas where they currently reside is part of the problem. No jobs, corrupt government (Hamas and the PLO), travel restrictions imposed by Israel, Import restrictions imposed by Israel creates aa population that wants change and blames Israel for everything.

Jewish settlers have removed Arabs from their lands and homes and continue to do so and they have done it by force as opposed to buying people out. Jews have restricted Arab water rights in parts of Israel.

Rocket attacks from the areas controlled by Hamas and sometimes from PLO controlled area is one of the reasons Israel has imposed restrictions but often the restrictions are so severe that they hurt all the people not just the leaders of Hamas and the PLO.

A two state solution is the only long term viable solution but the reality is until both sides are willing to accept the existence of the other there is no way to get to that point. If Hamas and the PLO would accept Israel's right to exist then Bibi probably would be forced by his own people to negotiate but until they do that there is no reason to say you will negotiate.

One difference that nobody has mentioned is that within Israel there are many Jews who are not as conservative as Bibi and they voice a differing view and they are allowed to. In the Palestinian territories people who voice a differing view are killed. This makes negotiations with Israel very difficult as the only voice allowed to speak for the Palestinians are the ones who want to exterminate Israel.

if the Palestinians would quit trying to exterminate the Jews then Israel and Bibi would sit down and make a deal but until that day comes there is no point in trying to do anything. Give the people who are doing there dead level best to wipe you off the face of the earth land that brings them closer to you, yeah that is a really good idea. These people have been fighting since Old Testament days and they'll keep on until end of days in all probability.

[homersapien 11,352]

Yeah, I bet you'd just roll over if the Mexicans came over and threw you out of your house.

If that is directed at me, no, i would not. I would organize myself and others and we would join together to militarily defeat anyone that would do that. I would not stoop to blowing up buses full of civilians etc and launching random rocket attacks etc.

Really? I wouldn't.

But maybe that's because of my emotional attachment to my home.

[WarTim 3,456]

There won't be peace until one or the other wins and the other is defeated. THAT is how you achieve peace. We ended WWII by completely defeating Germany and Japan. We've had peace with them ever since. We ended Korea and Vietnam with a cease fire and there has not been peace since in either place. These battles between Israel and the Arabs goes back to Old Testament days and it likely will continue until the end of time. The Palestinians will not be content until all the jews are gone and exterminated. Iran wants the same thing.

Careful. You are using logic. The sewing circle members can't comprehend.......

[autigeremt 6,569]

Do we really want to continue to support an Israel who has rejected the concept of a two-state solution?

Yes! The two-state solution keeps getting Israelis killed. Palestinians might want peace, but they won't give Hezbollah the boot. Until Hezbollah is out of Palestine the terror will continue and Isreal must protect itself.

Dont you mean Hamas? Hizballah is in Lebanon.

Both! Who fired rockets in Israel not too long ago from Lebanon? Then Hamas later on. Birds of a feather.

[autigeremt 6,569]

Wow. I am amazed at the folks who would so readily dismiss the idea of a two state solution.

It is the basis of every model for a negotiated peace.

Without it, perpetual conflict between Israel and Palestinians is guaranteed.

They dismiss it because it's BS. Why should Israel bow to terrorists who don't want real peace?

[autigeremt 6,569]

Yeah, I bet you'd just roll over if the Mexicans came over and threw you out of your house.

If that is directed at me, no, i would not. I would organize myself and others and we would join together to militarily defeat anyone that would do that. I would not stoop to blowing up buses full of civilians etc and launching random rocket attacks etc.

The hard core Palestinians are comprised of the ones who have directly experienced such persecution.

And please spare me the accusations of defending acts of terrorism. I'm not. (That's not directed at you personally DKW, I am just anticipating the same old tired script from someone.)

I am just trying to point out this is a lot more complex that just assuming Palestinians can only do evil and Jews are only protecting themselves.

In fact, it seems to me the whole region is nothing but a dense mosaic of such feuds. One of our problems is that we persist in seeing the region simply in terms of countries.

Just wait.

Are you an Anti-Semite? Just asking....reminds me of some of your racist posts. jk

[WarTim 3,456]

Wow. I am amazed at the folks who would so readily dismiss the idea of a two state solution.

It is the basis of every model for a negotiated peace.

Without it, perpetual conflict between Israel and Palestinians is guaranteed.

They dismiss it because it's BS. Why should Israel bow to terrorists who don't want real peace?

Because, much like Lola....Whatever barry wants(using his pen-phone-willing Lyin' media) barry gets! (Until the people of Israel elect THEIR Leader...).......

[homersapien 11,352]

Wow. I am amazed at the folks who would so readily dismiss the idea of a two state solution.

It is the basis of every model for a negotiated peace.

Without it, perpetual conflict between Israel and Palestinians is guaranteed.

They dismiss it because it's BS. Why should Israel bow to terrorists who don't want real peace?

Tell it to the EU and UN.

In fact, you can tell it to pretty much everyone because I can't think of a single country that would support Israel abandoning the two state concept.

That's why I said this is going to get real interesting.

[DKW 86 7,410]

Yeah, I bet you'd just roll over if the Mexicans came over and threw you out of your house.

If that is directed at me, no, i would not. I would organize myself and others and we would join together to militarily defeat anyone that would do that. I would not stoop to blowing up buses full of civilians etc and launching random rocket attacks etc.

The hard core Palestinians are comprised of the ones who have directly experienced such persecution.

And please spare me the accusations of defending acts of terrorism. I'm not. (That's not directed at you personally DKW, I am just anticipating the same old tired script from someone.)

I am just trying to point out this is a lot more complex that just assuming Palestinians can only do evil and Jews are only protecting themselves.

In fact, it seems to me the whole region is nothing but a dense mosaic of such feuds. One of our problems is that we persist in seeing the region simply in terms of countries.

Just wait.

That is the most important thing to realize in dealing with the ME. Logic, Reason, Western Concepts of Right & Wrong, these things do not apply nor matter when dealing with the ME. I think that one problem we have in this country is that we continue to force the Western/Nationalistic/Anglo/British-American worldview and framework on all the problems in the world. While that framework serves us well in regards to Europe & maybe even Asia, it is a complete mismatch in dealing with the ME. Their collective framework for dealing with issues is not our framework. That is why we just stand befuddled when we look at the ME and nothing we try works. They deal with millenias of tribalism and ancient family issues that are never forgotten nor forgiven. One of our problems in dealing with the ME is that they dont think like Westerners, (like the children of Japheth do, if you want to go biblical). Their entire worldview is not like ours. We see a practical goal that benefits all at the end of the day. They have no such constraint. Depending on the history of the land, the racial component, the religious mix, the tribal influences, etc etc etc, they may find a solution that is nonsensical to Westerners and maybe only temporary to their way of thinking. In short, it is kind of like dealing in matters of politics, religion, life and death issues with immature teenage girls. Their answer to a situation may not make any sense to us at all under the way we think, but to them, with a completely differing set of criteria and that criteria may change at the drop of a hat, it makes sense to them AT THAT TIME.

The only way we win in the ME is to not engage in the first place.

[homersapien 11,352]

Yeah, I bet you'd just roll over if the Mexicans came over and threw you out of your house.

If that is directed at me, no, i would not. I would organize myself and others and we would join together to militarily defeat anyone that would do that. I would not stoop to blowing up buses full of civilians etc and launching random rocket attacks etc.

The hard core Palestinians are comprised of the ones who have directly experienced such persecution.

And please spare me the accusations of defending acts of terrorism. I'm not. (That's not directed at you personally DKW, I am just anticipating the same old tired script from someone.)

I am just trying to point out this is a lot more complex that just assuming Palestinians can only do evil and Jews are only protecting themselves.

In fact, it seems to me the whole region is nothing but a dense mosaic of such feuds. One of our problems is that we persist in seeing the region simply in terms of countries.

Just wait.

Are you an Anti-Semite? Just asking....reminds me of some of your racist posts. jk

Why do you ask that? Please explain.

But fyi, some of my closest friends are Jewish. I attend concerts at their "Temple". I can't speak for their congregation, but my friends are liberal (certainly by your standards), and they pretty much agree with me about the Israeli Netanyahu. And don't forget a large part of the civilians in Israel feel the same way.

[WarTim 3,456]

...The Nation of Israel has voted. It's over. (Reminds me of the Ferris Buller ending..."Why are you still here? It's over. Go home!!"...)

[cooltigger21 0]

Israel made the wrong choice and spat in the face of Obama. Now they must be punished. He's a spoiled brat throwing a temper tantrum. He does this every time he doesn't get his way.

[homersapien 11,352]

Israel made the wrong choice and spat in the face of Obama. Now they must be punished. He's a spoiled brat throwing a temper tantrum. He does this every time he doesn't get his way.

Of course. You can't see it any other way.

[WarTim 3,456]

Israel made the wrong choice and spat in the face of Obama. Now they must be punished. He's a spoiled brat throwing a temper tantrum. He does this every time he doesn't get his way.

"Childish" is the perfect description ...