Yahoo political reporter: Cruz talking about God given rights is bizarre

[aujeff11 6,243]

Maybe we should consider our God given rights as "natural rights" and be done with the conversation. " The founding fathers rallied to that Lockean philosophy and ran with it, so maybe we should too.

You can't separate them. God is nature. Nature is God. He made it all and put it in place.

Still, if Cruz said my natural rights instead of God given rights, he probably would not have been attacked by a yahoo reporter.

Like James Madison said, "if all men were angels there would be no need for government." So, the government is administered by men and for men. Unless I lived under a monarch that claimed he was God's voice to men, I don't see how people think they are paying their taxes to God.

[cooltigger21 0]

Maybe we should consider our God given rights as "natural rights" and be done with the conversation. " The founding fathers rallied to that Lockean philosophy and ran with it, so maybe we should too.

You can't separate them. God is nature. Nature is God. He made it all and put it in place.

Still, if Cruz said my natural rights instead of God given rights, he probably would not have been attacked by a yahoo reporter.

Like James Madison said, "if all men were angels there would be no need for government." So, the government is administered by men and for men. Unless I lived under a monarch that claimed he was God's voice to men, I don't see how people think they are paying their taxes to God.

Government that is run by men who don't look to God for guidance scare me far more than anything else. A man that realizes that all things come from God and looks to him honestly for guidance is a comfort to me.

[aubfaninga 16]

Maybe we should consider our God given rights as "natural rights" and be done with the conversation. " The founding fathers rallied to that Lockean philosophy and ran with it, so maybe we should too.

You can't separate them. God is nature. Nature is God. He made it all and put it in place.

Still, if Cruz said my natural rights instead of God given rights, he probably would not have been attacked by a yahoo reporter.

Like James Madison said, "if all men were angels there would be no need for government." So, the government is administered by men and for men. Unless I lived under a monarch that claimed he was God's voice to men, I don't see how people think they are paying their taxes to God.

Government that is run by men who don't look to God for guidance scare me far more than anything else. A man that realizes that all things come from God and looks to him honestly for guidance is a comfort to me.

Even a muslim???

[cooltigger21 0]

Maybe we should consider our God given rights as "natural rights" and be done with the conversation. " The founding fathers rallied to that Lockean philosophy and ran with it, so maybe we should too.

You can't separate them. God is nature. Nature is God. He made it all and put it in place.

Still, if Cruz said my natural rights instead of God given rights, he probably would not have been attacked by a yahoo reporter.

Like James Madison said, "if all men were angels there would be no need for government." So, the government is administered by men and for men. Unless I lived under a monarch that claimed he was God's voice to men, I don't see how people think they are paying their taxes to God.

Government that is run by men who don't look to God for guidance scare me far more than anything else. A man that realizes that all things come from God and looks to him honestly for guidance is a comfort to me.

Even a muslim???

I said God not Allah.

[aujeff11 6,243]

Maybe we should consider our God given rights as "natural rights" and be done with the conversation. " The founding fathers rallied to that Lockean philosophy and ran with it, so maybe we should too.

You can't separate them. God is nature. Nature is God. He made it all and put it in place.

Still, if Cruz said my natural rights instead of God given rights, he probably would not have been attacked by a yahoo reporter.

Like James Madison said, "if all men were angels there would be no need for government." So, the government is administered by men and for men. Unless I lived under a monarch that claimed he was God's voice to men, I don't see how people think they are paying their taxes to God.

Government that is run by men who don't look to God for guidance scare me far more than anything else. A man that realizes that all things come from God and looks to him honestly for guidance is a comfort to me.

I'd feel comforted serving under a mild mannered man of logic and reason, not so much under a man claiming to work for God. Fighting holy wars isn't my style.

[cooltigger21 0]

Maybe we should consider our God given rights as "natural rights" and be done with the conversation. " The founding fathers rallied to that Lockean philosophy and ran with it, so maybe we should too.

You can't separate them. God is nature. Nature is God. He made it all and put it in place.

Still, if Cruz said my natural rights instead of God given rights, he probably would not have been attacked by a yahoo reporter.

Like James Madison said, "if all men were angels there would be no need for government." So, the government is administered by men and for men. Unless I lived under a monarch that claimed he was God's voice to men, I don't see how people think they are paying their taxes to God.

Government that is run by men who don't look to God for guidance scare me far more than anything else. A man that realizes that all things come from God and looks to him honestly for guidance is a comfort to me.

I'd feel comforted serving under a mild mannered man of logic and reason, not so much under a man claiming to work for God. Fighting holy wars isn't my style.

Who said anything about a holy war? Our founding fathers had a belief in god and looked to him for guidance. The judeo Christian ethic or values were the principles that were the foundation of this country. You're making a false equivalent.

[aujeff11 6,243]

Maybe we should consider our God given rights as "natural rights" and be done with the conversation. " The founding fathers rallied to that Lockean philosophy and ran with it, so maybe we should too.

You can't separate them. God is nature. Nature is God. He made it all and put it in place.

Still, if Cruz said my natural rights instead of God given rights, he probably would not have been attacked by a yahoo reporter.

Like James Madison said, "if all men were angels there would be no need for government." So, the government is administered by men and for men. Unless I lived under a monarch that claimed he was God's voice to men, I don't see how people think they are paying their taxes to God.

Government that is run by men who don't look to God for guidance scare me far more than anything else. A man that realizes that all things come from God and looks to him honestly for guidance is a comfort to me.

I'd feel comforted serving under a mild mannered man of logic and reason, not so much under a man claiming to work for God. Fighting holy wars isn't my style.

Who said anything about a holy war? Our founding fathers had a belief in god and looked to him for guidance. The judeo Christian ethic or values were the principles that were the foundation of this country. You're making a false equivalent.

Not all founding fathers looked to God for guidance. Don't lump all founding fathers into one category. Thomas Jefferson was believed to be a frugal atheist and Benjamin Franklin was known to have hooked up with foreign prostitutes a time or two.

[aubfaninga 16]

Maybe we should consider our God given rights as "natural rights" and be done with the conversation. " The founding fathers rallied to that Lockean philosophy and ran with it, so maybe we should too.

You can't separate them. God is nature. Nature is God. He made it all and put it in place.

Still, if Cruz said my natural rights instead of God given rights, he probably would not have been attacked by a yahoo reporter.

Like James Madison said, "if all men were angels there would be no need for government." So, the government is administered by men and for men. Unless I lived under a monarch that claimed he was God's voice to men, I don't see how people think they are paying their taxes to God.

Government that is run by men who don't look to God for guidance scare me far more than anything else. A man that realizes that all things come from God and looks to him honestly for guidance is a comfort to me.

Even a muslim???

I said God not Allah.

God is a title not a name so I needed clarification. Some call lucifer by the title god

[aubfaninga 16]

Maybe we should consider our God given rights as "natural rights" and be done with the conversation. " The founding fathers rallied to that Lockean philosophy and ran with it, so maybe we should too.

You can't separate them. God is nature. Nature is God. He made it all and put it in place.

Still, if Cruz said my natural rights instead of God given rights, he probably would not have been attacked by a yahoo reporter.

Like James Madison said, "if all men were angels there would be no need for government." So, the government is administered by men and for men. Unless I lived under a monarch that claimed he was God's voice to men, I don't see how people think they are paying their taxes to God.

Government that is run by men who don't look to God for guidance scare me far more than anything else. A man that realizes that all things come from God and looks to him honestly for guidance is a comfort to me.

I'd feel comforted serving under a mild mannered man of logic and reason, not so much under a man claiming to work for God. Fighting holy wars isn't my style.

Who said anything about a holy war? Our founding fathers had a belief in god and looked to him for guidance. The judeo Christian ethic or values were the principles that were the foundation of this country. You're making a false equivalent.

Not all founding fathers looked to God for guidance. Don't lump all founding fathers into one category. Thomas Jefferson was believed to be a frugal atheist and Benjamin Franklin was known to have hooked up with foreign prostitutes a time or two.

Its questionable if all of the theist founding fathers all beleived in the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

[cooltigger21 0]

Maybe we should consider our God given rights as "natural rights" and be done with the conversation. " The founding fathers rallied to that Lockean philosophy and ran with it, so maybe we should too.

You can't separate them. God is nature. Nature is God. He made it all and put it in place.

Still, if Cruz said my natural rights instead of God given rights, he probably would not have been attacked by a yahoo reporter.

Like James Madison said, "if all men were angels there would be no need for government." So, the government is administered by men and for men. Unless I lived under a monarch that claimed he was God's voice to men, I don't see how people think they are paying their taxes to God.

Government that is run by men who don't look to God for guidance scare me far more than anything else. A man that realizes that all things come from God and looks to him honestly for guidance is a comfort to me.

I'd feel comforted serving under a mild mannered man of logic and reason, not so much under a man claiming to work for God. Fighting holy wars isn't my style.

Who said anything about a holy war? Our founding fathers had a belief in god and looked to him for guidance. The judeo Christian ethic or values were the principles that were the foundation of this country. You're making a false equivalent.

Not all founding fathers looked to God for guidance. Don't lump all founding fathers into one category. Thomas Jefferson was believed to be a frugal atheist and Benjamin Franklin was known to have hooked up with foreign prostitutes a time or two.

Go back an read your history again. I don't know about Franklin and his "adventures" but Jefferson was anything but an atheist in any sense of the word. You still miss my point. My point was and is they all believed in God or something bigger than themselves. Where do you think that phrase in the declaration of independence came from in the first place?

[aujeff11 6,243]

Maybe we should consider our God given rights as "natural rights" and be done with the conversation. " The founding fathers rallied to that Lockean philosophy and ran with it, so maybe we should too.

You can't separate them. God is nature. Nature is God. He made it all and put it in place.

Still, if Cruz said my natural rights instead of God given rights, he probably would not have been attacked by a yahoo reporter.

Like James Madison said, "if all men were angels there would be no need for government." So, the government is administered by men and for men. Unless I lived under a monarch that claimed he was God's voice to men, I don't see how people think they are paying their taxes to God.

Government that is run by men who don't look to God for guidance scare me far more than anything else. A man that realizes that all things come from God and looks to him honestly for guidance is a comfort to me.

I'd feel comforted serving under a mild mannered man of logic and reason, not so much under a man claiming to work for God. Fighting holy wars isn't my style.

Who said anything about a holy war? Our founding fathers had a belief in god and looked to him for guidance. The judeo Christian ethic or values were the principles that were the foundation of this country. You're making a false equivalent.

Not all founding fathers looked to God for guidance. Don't lump all founding fathers into one category. Thomas Jefferson was believed to be a frugal atheist and Benjamin Franklin was known to have hooked up with foreign prostitutes a time or two.

Its questionable if all of the theist founding fathers all beleived in the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

What about Ishmael?

[cooltigger21 0]

Maybe we should consider our God given rights as "natural rights" and be done with the conversation. " The founding fathers rallied to that Lockean philosophy and ran with it, so maybe we should too.

You can't separate them. God is nature. Nature is God. He made it all and put it in place.

Still, if Cruz said my natural rights instead of God given rights, he probably would not have been attacked by a yahoo reporter.

Like James Madison said, "if all men were angels there would be no need for government." So, the government is administered by men and for men. Unless I lived under a monarch that claimed he was God's voice to men, I don't see how people think they are paying their taxes to God.

Government that is run by men who don't look to God for guidance scare me far more than anything else. A man that realizes that all things come from God and looks to him honestly for guidance is a comfort to me.

I'd feel comforted serving under a mild mannered man of logic and reason, not so much under a man claiming to work for God. Fighting holy wars isn't my style.

Who said anything about a holy war? Our founding fathers had a belief in god and looked to him for guidance. The judeo Christian ethic or values were the principles that were the foundation of this country. You're making a false equivalent.

Not all founding fathers looked to God for guidance. Don't lump all founding fathers into one category. Thomas Jefferson was believed to be a frugal atheist and Benjamin Franklin was known to have hooked up with foreign prostitutes a time or two.

Its questionable if all of the theist founding fathers all beleived in the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

What about Ishmael?

God blessed Ishmael. Now it's widely assumed that the modern Arabs descended from him but we don't really know what became of his descendants.

[aubfaninga 16]

Maybe we should consider our God given rights as "natural rights" and be done with the conversation. " The founding fathers rallied to that Lockean philosophy and ran with it, so maybe we should too.

You can't separate them. God is nature. Nature is God. He made it all and put it in place.

Still, if Cruz said my natural rights instead of God given rights, he probably would not have been attacked by a yahoo reporter.

Like James Madison said, "if all men were angels there would be no need for government." So, the government is administered by men and for men. Unless I lived under a monarch that claimed he was God's voice to men, I don't see how people think they are paying their taxes to God.

Government that is run by men who don't look to God for guidance scare me far more than anything else. A man that realizes that all things come from God and looks to him honestly for guidance is a comfort to me.

I'd feel comforted serving under a mild mannered man of logic and reason, not so much under a man claiming to work for God. Fighting holy wars isn't my style.

Who said anything about a holy war? Our founding fathers had a belief in god and looked to him for guidance. The judeo Christian ethic or values were the principles that were the foundation of this country. You're making a false equivalent.

Not all founding fathers looked to God for guidance. Don't lump all founding fathers into one category. Thomas Jefferson was believed to be a frugal atheist and Benjamin Franklin was known to have hooked up with foreign prostitutes a time or two.

Its questionable if all of the theist founding fathers all beleived in the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

What about Ishmael?

Cooltiger is correct.

The bible is silent if Ishmael accepted the GOD of Abraham or not. Its does record that Ish was blessed because of his Father but that is it.

[aujeff11 6,243]

Maybe we should consider our God given rights as "natural rights" and be done with the conversation. " The founding fathers rallied to that Lockean philosophy and ran with it, so maybe we should too.

You can't separate them. God is nature. Nature is God. He made it all and put it in place.

Still, if Cruz said my natural rights instead of God given rights, he probably would not have been attacked by a yahoo reporter.

Like James Madison said, "if all men were angels there would be no need for government." So, the government is administered by men and for men. Unless I lived under a monarch that claimed he was God's voice to men, I don't see how people think they are paying their taxes to God.

Government that is run by men who don't look to God for guidance scare me far more than anything else. A man that realizes that all things come from God and looks to him honestly for guidance is a comfort to me.

I'd feel comforted serving under a mild mannered man of logic and reason, not so much under a man claiming to work for God. Fighting holy wars isn't my style.

Who said anything about a holy war? Our founding fathers had a belief in god and looked to him for guidance. The judeo Christian ethic or values were the principles that were the foundation of this country. You're making a false equivalent.

Not all founding fathers looked to God for guidance. Don't lump all founding fathers into one category. Thomas Jefferson was believed to be a frugal atheist and Benjamin Franklin was known to have hooked up with foreign prostitutes a time or two.

Go back an read your history again. I don't know about Franklin and his "adventures" but Jefferson was anything but an atheist in any sense of the word. You still miss my point. My point was and is they all believed in God or something bigger than themselves. Where do you think that phrase in the declaration of independence came from in the first place?

That still doesn't prove we have God given rights. Jefferson didn't believe in the Trinity and he was reluctant to talk about his religious views. At best, he was probably a deist that believed in a supreme being that was far removed from the affairs of the people. He was far more concerned with natural rights, which was also included in the declaration. Rights to life, liberty, property, etc. The other founding fathers may have been religious but that doesn't prove they wanted a theocratic state. The bill of rights, declaration, etc would have looked like a John Winthrop sermon if our country was based on religion as much as you say it is. I don't think the word God is even in the constitution. Maybe, just maybe Thomas Jefferson wasn't kidding when he said religion and government should be separate. Theological rights. Citizens rights.

[cooltigger21 0]

Maybe we should consider our God given rights as "natural rights" and be done with the conversation. " The founding fathers rallied to that Lockean philosophy and ran with it, so maybe we should too.

You can't separate them. God is nature. Nature is God. He made it all and put it in place.

Still, if Cruz said my natural rights instead of God given rights, he probably would not have been attacked by a yahoo reporter.

Like James Madison said, "if all men were angels there would be no need for government." So, the government is administered by men and for men. Unless I lived under a monarch that claimed he was God's voice to men, I don't see how people think they are paying their taxes to God.

Government that is run by men who don't look to God for guidance scare me far more than anything else. A man that realizes that all things come from God and looks to him honestly for guidance is a comfort to me.

I'd feel comforted serving under a mild mannered man of logic and reason, not so much under a man claiming to work for God. Fighting holy wars isn't my style.

Who said anything about a holy war? Our founding fathers had a belief in god and looked to him for guidance. The judeo Christian ethic or values were the principles that were the foundation of this country. You're making a false equivalent.

Not all founding fathers looked to God for guidance. Don't lump all founding fathers into one category. Thomas Jefferson was believed to be a frugal atheist and Benjamin Franklin was known to have hooked up with foreign prostitutes a time or two.

Go back an read your history again. I don't know about Franklin and his "adventures" but Jefferson was anything but an atheist in any sense of the word. You still miss my point. My point was and is they all believed in God or something bigger than themselves. Where do you think that phrase in the declaration of independence came from in the first place?

That still doesn't prove we have God given rights. Jefferson didn't believe in the Trinity and he was reluctant to talk about his religious views. At best, he was probably a deist that believed in a supreme being that was far removed from the affairs of the people. He was far more concerned with natural rights, which was also included in the declaration. Rights to life, liberty, property, etc. The other founding fathers may have been religious but that doesn't prove they wanted a theocratic state. The bill of rights, declaration, etc would have looked like a John Winthrop sermon if our country was based on religion as much as you say it is. I don't think the word God is even in the constitution. Maybe, just maybe Thomas Jefferson wasn't kidding when he said religion and government should be separate. Theological rights. Citizens rights.

You can't separate the two. Jefferson went to regular worship services held in the capitol building each week while he was president. Call it what you will. If calling it nature is more comfortable with you ok go with that. The larger point that I'm trying to make, and evidently not succeeding, is that they believed in diety in one form or another, usually the God of Abraham but not always, and believed that was where our rights came from, not man as some would have us believe. If there is no creator, no power greater than ourselves, then our rights are not unalienable and are therefore subject to the whims of man.

The reporter in this story believes evidently, that our rights come from man. Anything man grants can be taken away by man. Our civics education in this country is and has been woeful. The understanding of our founding is do misunderstood and wrongly taught that it is getting to the point of being ridiculous now.

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

Old Testament. Why do people keep bringing up an old covenant that has been done away with?

Just an honest to goodness question here as I read through this thread. If the Old Testament has been "done away with" as you say, then why bother studying it or including it in the Bible? What then becomes the point of studying those books?

[Weegle777 78]

Old Testament. Why do people keep bringing up an old covenant that has been done away with?

Just an honest to goodness question here as I read through this thread. If the Old Testament has been "done away with" as you say, then why bother studying it or including it in the Bible? What then becomes the point of studying those books?

Historical content of people of the past biblical accounts, to obtain wisdom, and to understand why Jesus had to come. Don't take me the wrong way, I am not saying that the old testament is evil, just that if you are a follower of Jesus, you are no longer under the old covenant. It doesn't apply to you.

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

Maybe we should consider our God given rights as "natural rights" and be done with the conversation. " The founding fathers rallied to that Lockean philosophy and ran with it, so maybe we should too.

You can't separate them. God is nature. Nature is God. He made it all and put it in place.

Still, if Cruz said my natural rights instead of God given rights, he probably would not have been attacked by a yahoo reporter.

Like James Madison said, "if all men were angels there would be no need for government." So, the government is administered by men and for men. Unless I lived under a monarch that claimed he was God's voice to men, I don't see how people think they are paying their taxes to God.

Government that is run by men who don't look to God for guidance scare me far more than anything else. A man that realizes that all things come from God and looks to him honestly for guidance is a comfort to me.

Even a muslim???

I said God not Allah.

One more quick thing as I catch up. Allah is the literal arabic translation for God. In fact, if you really boil down Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, God is often seen as the same entity. It's how one gets to God that makes the religions different.

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

Old Testament. Why do people keep bringing up an old covenant that has been done away with?

Just an honest to goodness question here as I read through this thread. If the Old Testament has been "done away with" as you say, then why bother studying it or including it in the Bible? What then becomes the point of studying those books?

Historical content of people of the past biblical accounts, to obtain wisdom, and to understand why Jesus had to come. Don't take me the wrong way, I am not saying that the old testament is evil, just that if you are a follower of Jesus, you are no longer under the old covenant. It doesn't apply to you.

Fair enough about historical context. But to answer your question as to why people are bringing up the Old Testament, it's because that portion of the Bible is a major part of understanding God himself, not just the New Testament. The Old Testament can't be brought up in some arguments when it's convenient and tossed aside in others when it isn't, as I have seen from some in the past (not accusing you, just stating a general observation) . Thus anything in the Bible becomes fair game when these types of debates happen.

[aujeff11 6,243]

Maybe we should consider our God given rights as "natural rights" and be done with the conversation. " The founding fathers rallied to that Lockean philosophy and ran with it, so maybe we should too.

You can't separate them. God is nature. Nature is God. He made it all and put it in place.

Still, if Cruz said my natural rights instead of God given rights, he probably would not have been attacked by a yahoo reporter.

Like James Madison said, "if all men were angels there would be no need for government." So, the government is administered by men and for men. Unless I lived under a monarch that claimed he was God's voice to men, I don't see how people think they are paying their taxes to God.

Government that is run by men who don't look to God for guidance scare me far more than anything else. A man that realizes that all things come from God and looks to him honestly for guidance is a comfort to me.

I'd feel comforted serving under a mild mannered man of logic and reason, not so much under a man claiming to work for God. Fighting holy wars isn't my style.

Who said anything about a holy war? Our founding fathers had a belief in god and looked to him for guidance. The judeo Christian ethic or values were the principles that were the foundation of this country. You're making a false equivalent.

Not all founding fathers looked to God for guidance. Don't lump all founding fathers into one category. Thomas Jefferson was believed to be a frugal atheist and Benjamin Franklin was known to have hooked up with foreign prostitutes a time or two.

Go back an read your history again. I don't know about Franklin and his "adventures" but Jefferson was anything but an atheist in any sense of the word. You still miss my point. My point was and is they all believed in God or something bigger than themselves. Where do you think that phrase in the declaration of independence came from in the first place?

That still doesn't prove we have God given rights. Jefferson didn't believe in the Trinity and he was reluctant to talk about his religious views. At best, he was probably a deist that believed in a supreme being that was far removed from the affairs of the people. He was far more concerned with natural rights, which was also included in the declaration. Rights to life, liberty, property, etc. The other founding fathers may have been religious but that doesn't prove they wanted a theocratic state. The bill of rights, declaration, etc would have looked like a John Winthrop sermon if our country was based on religion as much as you say it is. I don't think the word God is even in the constitution. Maybe, just maybe Thomas Jefferson wasn't kidding when he said religion and government should be separate. Theological rights. Citizens rights.

You can't separate the two. Jefferson went to regular worship services held in the capitol building each week while he was president. Call it what you will. If calling it nature is more comfortable with you ok go with that. The larger point that I'm trying to make, and evidently not succeeding, is that they believed in diety in one form or another, usually the God of Abraham but not always, and believed that was where our rights came from, not man as some would have us believe. If there is no creator, no power greater than ourselves, then our rights are not unalienable and are therefore subject to the whims of man.

The reporter in this story believes evidently, that our rights come from man. Anything man grants can be taken away by man. Our civics education in this country is and has been woeful. The understanding of our founding is do misunderstood and wrongly taught that it is getting to the point of being ridiculous now.

I agree that the misconceptions of the founding fathers are mind boggling. Such as the majority of the founders left their Judeo- Christian roots and became deist thanks to many hours of reading material from the enlightenment Era. So when some people say "all of our founding fathers were Christian" or "all the founding fathers felt this way, " I laugh at them deep down because the founding fathers rarely agreed on a number of issues. It was the Thomas Jefferson camp versus the Alexander Hamilton camp or something of that nature constantly.

[TitanTiger 20,469]

Maybe we should consider our God given rights as "natural rights" and be done with the conversation. " The founding fathers rallied to that Lockean philosophy and ran with it, so maybe we should too.

You can't separate them. God is nature. Nature is God. He made it all and put it in place.

Still, if Cruz said my natural rights instead of God given rights, he probably would not have been attacked by a yahoo reporter.

Like James Madison said, "if all men were angels there would be no need for government." So, the government is administered by men and for men. Unless I lived under a monarch that claimed he was God's voice to men, I don't see how people think they are paying their taxes to God.

Government that is run by men who don't look to God for guidance scare me far more than anything else. A man that realizes that all things come from God and looks to him honestly for guidance is a comfort to me.

I'd feel comforted serving under a mild mannered man of logic and reason, not so much under a man claiming to work for God. Fighting holy wars isn't my style.

Who said anything about a holy war? Our founding fathers had a belief in god and looked to him for guidance. The judeo Christian ethic or values were the principles that were the foundation of this country. You're making a false equivalent.

Not all founding fathers looked to God for guidance. Don't lump all founding fathers into one category. Thomas Jefferson was believed to be a frugal atheist and Benjamin Franklin was known to have hooked up with foreign prostitutes a time or two.

Go back an read your history again. I don't know about Franklin and his "adventures" but Jefferson was anything but an atheist in any sense of the word. You still miss my point. My point was and is they all believed in God or something bigger than themselves. Where do you think that phrase in the declaration of independence came from in the first place?

That still doesn't prove we have God given rights. Jefferson didn't believe in the Trinity and he was reluctant to talk about his religious views. At best, he was probably a deist that believed in a supreme being that was far removed from the affairs of the people. He was far more concerned with natural rights, which was also included in the declaration. Rights to life, liberty, property, etc. The other founding fathers may have been religious but that doesn't prove they wanted a theocratic state. The bill of rights, declaration, etc would have looked like a John Winthrop sermon if our country was based on religion as much as you say it is. I don't think the word God is even in the constitution. Maybe, just maybe Thomas Jefferson wasn't kidding when he said religion and government should be separate. Theological rights. Citizens rights.

You can't separate the two. Jefferson went to regular worship services held in the capitol building each week while he was president. Call it what you will. If calling it nature is more comfortable with you ok go with that. The larger point that I'm trying to make, and evidently not succeeding, is that they believed in diety in one form or another, usually the God of Abraham but not always, and believed that was where our rights came from, not man as some would have us believe. If there is no creator, no power greater than ourselves, then our rights are not unalienable and are therefore subject to the whims of man.

The reporter in this story believes evidently, that our rights come from man. Anything man grants can be taken away by man. Our civics education in this country is and has been woeful. The understanding of our founding is do misunderstood and wrongly taught that it is getting to the point of being ridiculous now.

The founders may have distilled God down to a more generalized supernatural power rather than this or that specific conception, but the thrust of it was still the same: that our rights come from beyond human beings. That they are ours in an objective sense and therefore any effort by man to deprive us of those rights was not just a matter of differing opinion, but objectively and morally wrong and demanded a fight to preserve them. If rights are merely derived from within humankind, then they are by nature subjective. And being subjective, they aren't really rights at all, they are just merely the collected opinions of those who happen to have access to the levers of power at a given time.

[DKW 86 7,410]

http://www.historicchristchurch.org/

Thus is the Church that claims Washington and others as congregation members in Alexandria, VA.

[TheBlueVue 177]

I suppose one could argue ad infinitum about the origin of rights but the real substance of the Constitution and whether the rights conferred therein are God given is only the operating premise of that document and laid out in the Preamble. The whole point of the Constitution is to secure liberty against the oppression of tyranny.

Essentially, to argue that man's rights are conferred by men is to cosign the tyranny that would completely control the lives of every man if it could and reduce the liberties and freedoms the founding fathers secured as secondary to what the govt says. We're perilously close to being there now.

[Mims44 1,864]

Again, I've said this before. It says "their creator"

Not God, not a god, not gods... but creator.

And to the "I see them as God given rights, because man given rights can be taken away"

Those rights you are claiming are "God given rights" can be as well, or else there would have been no need for a revolution.

[aujeff11 6,243]

I suppose one could argue ad infinitum about the origin of rights but the real substance of the Constitution and whether the rights conferred therein are God given is only the operating premise of that document and laid out in the Preamble. The whole point of the Constitution is to secure liberty against the oppression of tyranny.

Essentially, to argue that man's rights are conferred by men is to cosign the tyranny that would completely control the lives of every man if it could and reduce the liberties and freedoms the founding fathers secured as secondary to what the govt says. We're perilously close to being there now.

It has been discussed ad infinitum in the United States and elsewhere. For example, The EU expanding to rival the power of the United States by choosing to ignore the identifiers of each country. Many scholars have debated whether the EU, and their constituent's rights could last without an religion, nationality, etc. There is a lack of a foundation for the EU to fall back on, so the rights can easily be usurped and taken away. However, religion doesn't have to be the primary foundation for a citizen's rights. A secular government with some type of foundation, universalism, humanism, whatever, can be just as effective in protecting citizen's rights.