AUDub 11,131 Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 Science is a great thing...but it also created the Nuclear Bomb and helped to morph several strains of bacteria. It isn't some monolithic object or organization like you characterize it. It is merely a tool to acquire knowledge. Without science, your day to day life would be very different. That car you drive? Science. That computer you typed this on? Science. The place you live? Science. The food you eat when you're hungry. The medicine you take when you don't feel well. Etcetera. Etcetera. Ad nauseum. Nothing wrong with vaccines. We live with risks everyday, but I do believe in the freedoms we have (or had) and choice is one of them in its basic form. Wha about when your choice endangers others? Vulnerable people like the very young, elderly and the ill. That Disneyland outbreak would not have happened if people weren't ignorant of the consequences of their choices. That Disneyland outbreak happened because they had recently had thousands of impoverished 3rd world children aka illegal aliens from Central America there as a result of Obama's open borders policy and his attendant pandering to their every whim. What about a country's President whose policies are endangering its citizens? Like hell it did. I've posted statistics in the past showing that Central and South American countries have vaccination rates comparable to our own. It's well know that wealthy, liberal areas are seeing resurgences of these diseases because the dumb asses refuse to have their kids vaccinated. You're just trying to rustle up another brown scare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
autigeremt 6,569 Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 Science is a great thing...but it also created the Nuclear Bomb and helped to morph several strains of bacteria. It isn't some monolithic object or organization like you characterize it. It is merely a tool to acquire knowledge. Without science, your day to day life would be very different. That car you drive? Science. That computer you typed this on? Science. The place you live? Science. The food you eat when you're hungry. The medicine you take when you don't feel well. Etcetera. Etcetera. Ad nauseum. Nothing wrong with vaccines. We live with risks everyday, but I do believe in the freedoms we have (or had) and choice is one of them in its basic form. Wha about when your choice endangers others? Vulnerable people like the very young, elderly and the ill. That Disneyland outbreak would not have happened if people weren't ignorant of the consequences of their choices. 1000 years ago....we had no vaccines. Vaccines didn't wipe out the plague either. BMP's did. Vaccines are great and should be used, but like post 911 laws not every one of them have the best of outcomes. The Disneyland outbreak wasn't just about vaccinations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUDub 11,131 Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 1000 years ago....we had no vaccines. And the result was multitudes of people dying from diseases that are preventable in this day and age. Nobody should have to die from Measles, Pertussis, Polio or Smallpox in this era. Shoot, we didn't get around to discovering germs and developing germ theory until far later. Miasma theory was still the prevalent theory at that time. Vaccines didn't wipe out the plague either. BMP's did. Source this statement, please. I'm well aware that vaccines didn't wipe out the plague. Nothing has. You do realize that the plague is still around, right? Know how we treat it? Antibiotics! We even have a vaccine for it now. Science! Vaccines are great and should be used, but like post 911 laws not every one of them have the best of outcomes. What on Earth are you talking about? How is preventing a deadly disease from spreading, and eventually possibly eliminating it with little to no risk not the best outcome? The Disneyland outbreak wasn't just about vaccinations. What was it about, then? (This should be good) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUDub 11,131 Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 Bump. Just to sate my curiosity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quietfan 233 Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 Science: While not a hard and fast rule, in general vaccines against viruses (measles, flu, polio, small pox, etc.) are more common while vaccines against bacteria (bubonic plague, leprosy, strep, staph) are less easily developed. Conversely, antibiotics are useless against viruses but have saved millions from bacterial deaths. There is no reasonable argument against vaccination. There is absolutely no scientific evidence for vaccines causing autism. In any case, the irrational autism scare generally focused on the mercury preservative used in vaccines which has been removed from practically all current versions. There can be extremely rare incidences of other side effects, but those are so rare and/or so mild as to be insignificant as an argument against vaccination. It astonishes me that some who would campaign vociferously for mandatory photo I.D.'s to vote or tighter firearm regulations (to choose "Big Brother" examples from both sides of the political spectrum) would risk the lives of their own children and others over some sort of libertarian objection to mandatory vaccination for school enrollment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUDub 11,131 Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 Science: While not a hard and fast rule, in general vaccines against viruses (measles, flu, polio, small pox, etc.) are more common while vaccines against bacteria (bubonic plague, leprosy, strep, staph) are less easily developed. Conversely, antibiotics are useless against viruses but have saved millions from bacterial deaths. Exactly right. Some bacterial vaccines have been developed, like the aforementioned Yersinia Pestis vaccine, but as a general rule it is very difficult to vaccinate against bacterial infection. Imagine the kind of effect a malaria vaccine would have. There is no reasonable argument against vaccination. There is absolutely no scientific evidence for vaccines causing autism. In any case, the irrational autism scare generally focused on the mercury preservative used in vaccines which has been removed from practically all current versions. There can be extremely rare incidences of other side effects, but those are so rare and/or so mild as to be insignificant as an argument against vaccination. It astonishes me that some who would campaign vociferously for mandatory photo I.D.'s to vote or tighter firearm regulations (to choose "Big Brother" examples from both sides of the political spectrum) would risk the lives of their own children and others over some sort of libertarian objection to mandatory vaccination for school enrollment. again. Most Libertarians I know make an exception for vaccination as a matter of practicality. Not vaccinating your kids is a dangerous public health hazard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quietfan 233 Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 Of course, technically malaria is caused by a parasitic protozoa not a bacteria, but absolutely a vaccine against malaria would be perhaps the greatest medical advance we could make at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUDub 11,131 Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 Of course, technically malaria is caused by a parasitic protozoa not a bacteria, but absolutely a vaccine against malaria would be perhaps the greatest medical advance we could make at the moment. I know, but I did slip there. What's one single celled organism against another? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mims44 1,864 Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 People with autism have usually had vaccinations.... so sure. BUT, just think about this for a minute.... Everyone with autism has consumed H2O for hydration! Ipso Facto water causes autism! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooltigger21 0 Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 Of course, technically malaria is caused by a parasitic protozoa not a bacteria, but absolutely a vaccine against malaria would be perhaps the greatest medical advance we could make at the moment. DDT, the solution to malaria. A vaccine would be great but just kill the misquotes and you've prevented it. DDT is great and the ban on it, based on false claims, has caused untold numbers of deaths in Third world countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUDub 11,131 Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 Of course, technically malaria is caused by a parasitic protozoa not a bacteria, but absolutely a vaccine against malaria would be perhaps the greatest medical advance we could make at the moment. DDT A. Not a vaccine B. Yes, it is very effective, but it won't be forever. An effective vaccine would largely solve that. many parts of India, DDT has also largely lost its effectiveness.[92] Agricultural uses were banned in 1989 and its anti-malarial use has been declining. Urban use has halted completely.[93] Nevertheless, DDT is still manufactured and used,[94] and one study had concluded that "DDT is still a viable insecticide in indoor residual spraying owing to its effectivity in well supervised spray operation and high excito-repellency factor."[95] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quietfan 233 Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 Of course, technically malaria is caused by a parasitic protozoa not a bacteria, but absolutely a vaccine against malaria would be perhaps the greatest medical advance we could make at the moment. I know, but I did slip there. What's one single celled organism against another? Well yeah...they all look alike to me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexava 6,973 Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 http://www.smartvax.com/images/PDF/autism_primer_from_safeminds_for_general_public.pdf Most of the links i have seen on this i now cant find. The investigations remind me of an NCAA investigation in Tuscaloosa. There are/were charts showing the vaccine rates in U.S. vs other civilized nations and it is very alarming. We are over vaccinated to say the least. (chicken pox) is one. by holding off these shots until a later age it could really prove no link. For the record i do not know or believe autism is caused by vaccines but the CDC does not want to know and will never admit error. There is something environmentally causing this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUDub 11,131 Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 http://www.smartvax....eral_public.pdf Most of the links i have seen on this i now cant find. The investigations remind me of an NCAA investigation in Tuscaloosa. There are/were charts showing the vaccine rates in U.S. vs other civilized nations and it is very alarming. We are over vaccinated to say the least. (chicken pox) is one. by holding off these shots until a later age it could really prove no link. For the record i do not know or believe autism is caused by vaccines but the CDC does not want to know and will never admit error. There is something environmentally causing this. OK. Thank you. I'm going to parse this here link, but it will take a while. (Seriously, though. SmartVac? That raises my propaganda flag right from the get go.) It's unfortunate you find it convincing, as it's a litany of distortions, appeals to ignorance and outright lies. Mind you, a lot of it does look convincing, but only superficially so, as is the case with a lot of pseudoscience. And it's horse hockey that we're "over-vaccinated." It's the stupid old "too many vaccines can overwhelm the immune system!" trope which has absolutely zero basis in reality. And really, I get that you don't like the CDC. But that really is an absolutely loony appeal to motive. "Does not want to know?" Also, never admits error? What do you call this? http://www.cbsnews.c...kes-cdc-admits/ http://www.nytimes.c...-practices.html http://www.washingto...-2004Nov23.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexava 6,973 Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 good some day they may admit they over vaccinated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUDub 11,131 Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 good some day they may admit they over vaccinated. There's that "over-vaccinated" trope again. Only folks that would claim such a thing are those with only a vague understanding of the immune system. Back to this powerpoint... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexava 6,973 Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 $ alone is one thing driving this. hell look at cholesterol meds 26billion a year and no proof it helps.. i am not against vaccinations. i am for them. i am just not convinced they are not causing autism to get where it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUDub 11,131 Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 $ alone is one thing driving this. hell look at cholesterol meds 26billion a year and no proof it helps.. i am not against vaccinations. i am for them. i am just not convinced they are not causing autism to get where it is. You're committing tactic commonly employed by vaccine denialists. "I'm not against vaccinations! I think they're great! I just have questions about their safety!" I like to refer to it as JAQing off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texan4Auburn 1,626 Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 http://www.smartvax....eral_public.pdf Most of the links i have seen on this i now cant find. The investigations remind me of an NCAA investigation in Tuscaloosa. There are/were charts showing the vaccine rates in U.S. vs other civilized nations and it is very alarming. We are over vaccinated to say the least. (chicken pox) is one. by holding off these shots until a later age it could really prove no link. For the record i do not know or believe autism is caused by vaccines but the CDC does not want to know and will never admit error. There is something environmentally causing this. My site adviser is giving a warning for the site you linked. I have all my statistics in a notebook somewhere in the closet. They came from a professor at the Vet School that worked for the CDC for over 20 years and has been heavily involved in vaccination protocols and in administering them in other countries. One issue with vaccinations right now are that they have changed the make up of some of them, which has made them weaker and less effective. Combine that with the anti-vaccination crowd and you see diseases reemerging like the whooping cough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quietfan 233 Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 I like to refer to it as JAQing off. I'm borrowing your phrase. Do I have to give you credit every time I use it? "Is it possible that ancient astronaut buffs, Bermuda Triangle believers, 9/11 revisionists, and new age medicine advocates would have nothing to say if they couldn't use expressions like 'Might it be...?', 'What if...?', 'Is there a connection...?', 'Is it only coincidence that...?', or 'it looks as if... ' ?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AURaptor 1,121 Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 Most Libertarians I know make an exception for vaccination as a matter of practicality. Not vaccinating your kids is a dangerous public health hazard. I tend to agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUDub 11,131 Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 Most Libertarians I know make an exception for vaccination as a matter of practicality. Not vaccinating your kids is a dangerous public health hazard. I tend to agree. Nice to find common ground from time to time, Raptor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUDub 11,131 Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 I like to refer to it as JAQing off. I'm borrowing your phrase. Do I have to give you credit every time I use it? "Is it possible that ancient astronaut buffs, Bermuda Triangle believers, 9/11 revisionists, and new age medicine advocates would have nothing to say if they couldn't use exp<b></b>ressions like 'Might it be...?', 'What if...?', 'Is there a connection...?', 'Is it only coincidence that...?', or 'it looks as if... ' ?" :rolleyes:/> No. And I wouldn't have the standing to say you did, seeing as I'm borrowing it myself from JREF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexava 6,973 Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 $ alone is one thing driving this. hell look at cholesterol meds 26billion a year and no proof it helps.. i am not against vaccinations. i am for them. i am just not convinced they are not causing autism to get where it is. You're committing tactic commonly employed by vaccine denialists. "I'm not against vaccinations! I think they're great! I just have questions about their safety!" I like to refer to it as JAQing off. are you saying you can only be totally for vaccinations and not question side effects or totally against their effectiveness and blame them for every unidentified mental illness out there? Being a little skeptic is much the opposite of jerking off than standing blindly on one side of the fence or the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBlueVue 177 Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 $ alone is one thing driving this. hell look at cholesterol meds 26billion a year and no proof it helps.. i am not against vaccinations. i am for them. i am just not convinced they are not causing autism to get where it is. You're committing tactic commonly employed by vaccine denialists. "I'm not against vaccinations! I think they're great! I just have questions about their safety!" I like to refer to it as JAQing off. are you saying you can only be totally for vaccinations and not question side effects or totally against their effectiveness and blame them for every unidentified mental illness out there? Being a little skeptic is much the opposite of jerking off than standing blindly on one side of the fence or the other. It boils down to individual liberty. I favor the freedom of choice like you do. Like ben, they'll give you all the alarmist rhetoric about public safety health hazards and all that and even if thats true which I clearly doubt, the government does not have the authority to force people to have vaccines. Legal authority is different from political power though because it is legitimate. What makes legal authority legitimate is that it is bound by the law and ethics while political power, especially of late, sees both as secondary considerations only. What are they going to do? Throw people in jail for not taking their vaccines? Personally I dont do vaccines and haven't been sick in 25 years. The last time I got a flu shot I got the flu and that had a significant impact on my view of vaccines in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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