The Cross and the Confederate Flag

[AURaptor 1,122]

The rebel flag, as most know it, wasn't even the standard for the CSA. Yet oddly, it's more offensive than the ACTUAL flag of the Confederacy.

But as is the case w/ damn near everything, facts are irrelevant. Perception rules .

[icanthearyou 4,462]

The rebel flag, as most know it, wasn't even the standard for the CSA. Yet oddly, it's more offensive than the ACTUAL flag of the Confederacy.

But as is the case w/ damn near everything, facts are irrelevant. Perception rules .

In the context of a symbol, does it matter whether it is the official flag or the battle flag? I do not see any distortion of facts or perceptions. What are you attempting to defend?

[homersapien 11,366]

This is nothing more than an attempt to destroy freedom of speech. If a group wants to stomp on the American flag, go for it, they have every constitutional right to do so. If a city council wants to have a Confederate flag in front of the city hall, go for it, they have every constitutional right to do so as well.

Nonsense.

As individuals they have a right to display it on their own property, but as government officials their obligation is to represent all of the people.

And this is not about constitutional rights. It's about common decency.

[AURaptor 1,122]

Yes, it matters. If one flag can be labeled as a standard for all that was bad , then so can another. The Southern Confederate Cross was one of many flags flown in the civil war.

I'm attempting to defend the heritage of the South, which is and was distinctive , to this very day.

Those wishing to erase it are no better,imo, than the Taliban who demolish symbols and statues not to their liking.

[homersapien 11,366]

I try to erase all of Auburn's losses from my memory, the South's loss in the Civil War is one that we want to remember, why?

The only thing I love to remember is the great service that General John T. Croxton performed when he burned turdscaloosa to the ground.

WAR DAMN CROXTON!

Well, there you have it: A real Auburn man's perspective.

[homersapien 11,366]

Yes, it matters. If one flag can be labeled as a standard for all that was bad , then so can another. The Southern Confederate Cross was one of many flags flown in the civil war.

I'm attempting to defend the heritage of the South, which is and was distinctive , to this very day.

Those wishing to erase it are no better,imo, than the Taliban who demolish symbols and statues not to their liking.

You are perfectly free to fly it it you want to "defend" the heritage of the South (which includes slavery).

This is about the state government flying it. It is beyond churlish for the state government to simply ignore the sensibilities of a large minority of it's population by honoring a country and society that was based

on their enslavement.

[AURaptor 1,122]

Yes, it matters. If one flag can be labeled as a standard for all that was bad , then so can another. The Southern Confederate Cross was one of many flags flown in the civil war.

I'm attempting to defend the heritage of the South, which is and was distinctive , to this very day.

Those wishing to erase it are no better,imo, than the Taliban who demolish symbols and statues not to their liking.

You are perfectly free to fly it it you want to "defend" the heritage of the South (which includes slavery).

That's horse s***. The founding of this country " includes slavery ", and yet we still proudly wave the American flag. As we should.

This is about the state government flying it. It is beyond churlish for the state government to simply ignore the sensibilities of a large minority of it's population by honoring a country and society that was based

on their enslavement.

Wait, are you talking bout the Confederacy or the first 90 years of the USA ? The same argument could be used for both, you know.

[homersapien 11,366]

Yes, it matters. If one flag can be labeled as a standard for all that was bad , then so can another. The Southern Confederate Cross was one of many flags flown in the civil war.

I'm attempting to defend the heritage of the South, which is and was distinctive , to this very day.

Those wishing to erase it are no better,imo, than the Taliban who demolish symbols and statues not to their liking.

You are perfectly free to fly it it you want to "defend" the heritage of the South (which includes slavery).

That's horse s***. The founding of this country " includes slavery ", and yet we still proudly wave the American flag. As we should.

This is about the state government flying it. It is beyond churlish for the state government to simply ignore the sensibilities of a large minority of it's population by honoring a country and society that was based

on their enslavement.

Wait, are you talking bout the Confederacy or the first 90 years of the USA ? The same argument could be used for both, you know.

The confederate states seceded and formed a new nation because they perceived their institution of slavery was threatened. They left the U.S. and fought to the bitter end to defend their existence as a slavery-based nation.

On the other hand, the United States eventually recognized the evil of slavery and outlawed the practice in our Constitution.

Do you see the difference?

[homersapien 11,366]

And it's no accident that the confederate flag became the symbol of those who resisted integration and the dissolution of Jim Crow.

There was no doubt about which part of "southern heritage" they were representing with the flag.

[TitanTiger 20,472]

The rebel flag, as most know it, wasn't even the standard for the CSA. Yet oddly, it's more offensive than the ACTUAL flag of the Confederacy.

But as is the case w/ damn near everything, facts are irrelevant. Perception rules .

Probably because it's an irrelevant difference.

[aujeff11 6,243]

This is nothing more than an attempt to destroy freedom of speech. If a group wants to stomp on the American flag, go for it, they have every constitutional right to do so. If a city council wants to have a Confederate flag in front of the city hall, go for it, they have every constitutional right to do so as well.

Nonsense.

As individuals they have a right to display it on their own property, but as government officials their obligation is to represent all of the people.

And this is not about constitutional rights. It's about common decency.

I have the constitutional right to not display common decency and the government can't do anything about that as long as I'm legally expressing my constitutional rights. In the Nationalist Socialist Party v. Skokie case (1977), the court basically ruled that Nazi supporters had the right to parade in Jewish neighborhoods with the swastika and that the swastika was a protected symbolic form of free speech.

As far as the local and state governments flying confederate flags at their city halls and what not, I guess it is up to them if they are willing to accept the backlash. Until the confederate flag is banned, the state courthouses and the city halls can still fly the confederate flag and some states still do.

[homersapien 11,366]

This is nothing more than an attempt to destroy freedom of speech. If a group wants to stomp on the American flag, go for it, they have every constitutional right to do so. If a city council wants to have a Confederate flag in front of the city hall, go for it, they have every constitutional right to do so as well.

Nonsense.

As individuals they have a right to display it on their own property, but as government officials their obligation is to represent all of the people.

And this is not about constitutional rights. It's about common decency.

I have the constitutional right to not display common decency and the government can't do anything about that as long as I'm legally expressing my constitutional rights. In the Nationalist Socialist Party v. Skokie case (1977), the court basically ruled that Nazi supporters had the right to parade in Jewish neighborhoods with the swastika and that the swastika was a protected symbolic form of free speech.

As far as the local and state governments flying confederate flags at their city halls and what not, I guess it is up to them if they are willing to accept the backlash. Until the confederate flag is banned, the state courthouses and the city halls can still fly the confederate flag and some states still do.

Nonsense.

The flag doesn't have to be "banned" for it to be removed from government property. That can be done with a simple act by the legislative bodies involved, which is why it's there to begin with.

The reason it hasn't happened in South Carolina is because the people who are indifferent to how a large minority views the flag have the political power to simply ignore what is the correct and decent thing to do. They are called Republicans.

And again, this has nothing to do with anyone's constitutional rights of free speech. So you can stop arguing personal constitutional rights, I never disputed them. It's a red herring.

It's about the political majority bullying the minority because they can and because they don't give a damn about that minorities feelings. (But frankly, I am not sure there isn't a majority of South Carolinians that would rather have the flag removed.)

[aujeff11 6,243]

This is nothing more than an attempt to destroy freedom of speech. If a group wants to stomp on the American flag, go for it, they have every constitutional right to do so. If a city council wants to have a Confederate flag in front of the city hall, go for it, they have every constitutional right to do so as well.

Nonsense.

As individuals they have a right to display it on their own property, but as government officials their obligation is to represent all of the people.

And this is not about constitutional rights. It's about common decency.

I have the constitutional right to not display common decency and the government can't do anything about that as long as I'm legally expressing my constitutional rights. In the Nationalist Socialist Party v. Skokie case (1977), the court basically ruled that Nazi supporters had the right to parade in Jewish neighborhoods with the swastika and that the swastika was a protected symbolic form of free speech.

As far as the local and state governments flying confederate flags at their city halls and what not, I guess it is up to them if they are willing to accept the backlash. Until the confederate flag is banned, the state courthouses and the city halls can still fly the confederate flag and some states still do.

Nonsense.

The flag doesn't have to be "banned" for it to be removed from government property. That can be done with a simple act by the legislative bodies involved.

The reason it hasn't happened in South Carolina is because the people who are indifferent to how a large minority views the flag have the political power to simply ignore what is the right and decent thing to do. They are called Republicans.

I know why the flag is still there. I don't understand why the Confederate flag is under attack but not the monument to the Confederate soldiers which stands next to the flag.I also don't understand why this flag has anything to do with the mass church shooting. The mass shooting was obviously racially motivated but how do we know that the flag had anything to do with the defendant's willingness to shoot the 9 victims?

[AURaptor 1,122]

The rebel flag, as most know it, wasn't even the standard for the CSA. Yet oddly, it's more offensive than the ACTUAL flag of the Confederacy.

But as is the case w/ damn near everything, facts are irrelevant. Perception rules .

Probably because it's an irrelevant difference.

How so ? Just because some choose to arbitrarily claim it ?

[TitanTiger 20,472]

The rebel flag, as most know it, wasn't even the standard for the CSA. Yet oddly, it's more offensive than the ACTUAL flag of the Confederacy.

But as is the case w/ damn near everything, facts are irrelevant. Perception rules .

Probably because it's an irrelevant difference.

How so ? Just because some choose to arbitrarily claim it ?

No, because they are both representative of the Confederacy. The symbolism is there regardless of whether it's the "official" flag or the battle flag.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

Titan......I have many black friends. They are proud of their heritage. I respect them and they respect my pride of my heritage We haven no problems either way. If I offend someone over my heritage so be it. I'm never going to be ashamed of my heritage. I've lived all over the US. and rarely had a problem. I am what I am and people can take it or leave it. I have always been blessed with lots of friends so need to be PC to gain more.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

AUUSN....you have NO clue what REL wouid do so just pour some ice water on your ego.

[TitanTiger 20,472]

I know why the flag is still there. I don't understand why the Confederate flag is under attack but not the monument to the Confederate soldiers which stands next to the flag.I also don't understand why this flag has anything to do with the mass church shooting. The mass shooting was obviously racially motivated but how do we know that the flag had anything to do with the defendant's willingness to shoot the 9 victims?

No one is claiming the flag was the reason for it. But it is symbolic of something deeper that the motives for it are related to. When something like this happens, it causes us to reflect and look around at what kind of people we are, what messages we send - intentionally or unintentionally - to others. It causes us to want to take some steps to foster healing and break down divisions, or stop tolerating divisions we've made excuses for in the past.

Maybe the monument needs to be moved elsewhere to, but just because you don't name everything doesn't mean there isn't a vaild point on the thing that you do name.

The thing I can't understand is that, knowing what it represents to almost any black person out there, why would one stubbornly insist on flying it?

[TitanTiger 20,472]

Titan......I have many black friends. They are proud of their heritage. I respect them and they respect my pride of my heritage We haven no problems either way. If I offend someone over my heritage so be it. I'm never going to be ashamed of my heritage. I've lived all over the US. and rarely had a problem. I am what I am and people can take it or leave it. I have always been blessed with lots of friends so need to be PC to gain more.

Do any of them have a heritage that includes enslaving your ancestors, breaking up their families, treating them like property, then continuing to terrorize, subjugate, lynch and deny rights to for the next 100 years after ostensibly freeing them? Do they fly or prominently present those kinds of symbols despite knowing how that would likely make you or your people feel?

Honestly, as a Christian, it's indefensible. It shouldn't matter what's legal or what's tradition.

[aujeff11 6,243]

This is nothing more than an attempt to destroy freedom of speech. If a group wants to stomp on the American flag, go for it, they have every constitutional right to do so. If a city council wants to have a Confederate flag in front of the city hall, go for it, they have every constitutional right to do so as well.

Nonsense.

As individuals they have a right to display it on their own property, but as government officials their obligation is to represent all of the people.

And this is not about constitutional rights. It's about common decency.

I have the constitutional right to not display common decency and the government can't do anything about that as long as I'm legally expressing my constitutional rights. In the Nationalist Socialist Party v. Skokie case (1977), the court basically ruled that Nazi supporters had the right to parade in Jewish neighborhoods with the swastika and that the swastika was a protected symbolic form of free speech.

As far as the local and state governments flying confederate flags at their city halls and what not, I guess it is up to them if they are willing to accept the backlash. Until the confederate flag is banned, the state courthouses and the city halls can still fly the confederate flag and some states still do.

Nonsense.

The flag doesn't have to be "banned" for it to be removed from government property. That can be done with a simple act by the legislative bodies involved, which is why it's there to begin with.

The reason it hasn't happened in South Carolina is because the people who are indifferent to how a large minority views the flag have the political power to simply ignore what is the correct and decent thing to do. They are called Republicans.

And again, this has nothing to do with anyone's constitutional rights of free speech. So you can stop arguing personal constitutional rights, I never disputed them. It's a red herring.

It's about the political majority bullying the minority because they can and because they don't give a damn about that minorities feelings. (But frankly, I am not sure there isn't a majority of South Carolinians that would rather have the flag removed.)

I never meant to go off on personal constitutional rights. Your edited version made your OP clearer to me so I now realize I was attacking something that wasn't meant to be implied......

[AU_Tiger_88 417]

This is nothing more than an attempt to destroy freedom of speech. If a group wants to stomp on the American flag, go for it, they have every constitutional right to do so. If a city council wants to have a Confederate flag in front of the city hall, go for it, they have every constitutional right to do so as well.

Nonsense.

As individuals they have a right to display it on their own property, but as government officials their obligation is to represent all of the people.

And this is not about constitutional rights. It's about common decency.

I have the constitutional right to not display common decency and the government can't do anything about that as long as I'm legally expressing my constitutional rights. In the Nationalist Socialist Party v. Skokie case (1977), the court basically ruled that Nazi supporters had the right to parade in Jewish neighborhoods with the swastika and that the swastika was a protected symbolic form of free speech.

As far as the local and state governments flying confederate flags at their city halls and what not, I guess it is up to them if they are willing to accept the backlash. Until the confederate flag is banned, the state courthouses and the city halls can still fly the confederate flag and some states still do.

Nonsense.

The flag doesn't have to be "banned" for it to be removed from government property. That can be done with a simple act by the legislative bodies involved, which is why it's there to begin with.

The reason it hasn't happened in South Carolina is because the people who are indifferent to how a large minority views the flag have the political power to simply ignore what is the correct and decent thing to do. They are called Republicans.

And again, this has nothing to do with anyone's constitutional rights of free speech. So you can stop arguing personal constitutional rights, I never disputed them. It's a red herring.

It's about the political majority bullying the minority because they can and because they don't give a damn about that minorities feelings. (But frankly, I am not sure there isn't a majority of South Carolinians that would rather have the flag removed.)

Talk about Red Herrings, you taking a shot at Republicans is a big one. First off, SC was a long time democratic state and best as I can recall they flew the same flag so stop using party politics as folks who support the stars and bars are from both parties. But again that is just like you to do that in all of this forum. IF the VOTERS of SC want it down then they could pressure their politicians to pass a law banning flying it at government facilities with provisions of course if it is part of a statue etc...

[TitanTiger 20,472]

Also, PT, I'm going to just throw this out there. Maybe you're not aware of the perception. But, "I have a lot of black friends" is never a good answer in discussions like this. It's not a valid reason or defense for a position on racial matters. Nothing will induce an eyeroll faster or better result in not being taken seriously than that response.

[icanthearyou 4,462]

I try to erase all of Auburn's losses from my memory, the South's loss in the Civil War is one that we want to remember, why?

The only thing I love to remember is the great service that General John T. Croxton performed when he burned turdscaloosa to the ground.

WAR DAMN CROXTON!

Well, there you have it: A real Auburn man's perspective.

If the "Sons of Croxton" march on Tuscaloosa and set anything on fire, you two could be in big trouble.

[TitanTiger 20,472]

Talk about Red Herrings, you taking a shot at Republicans is a big one. First off, SC was a long time democratic state and best as I can recall they flew the same flag so stop using party politics as folks who support the stars and bars are from both parties. But again that is just like you to do that in all of this forum. IF the VOTERS of SC want it down then they could pressure their politicians to pass a law banning flying it at government facilities with provisions of course if it is part of a statue etc...

It was Republicans who, instead of simply doing the right thing and relegating the Confederate flag to a museum or historical site when SC's legislature voted to take it down from the statehouse dome, instead moved it down to the statehouse grounds. And they also inserted a clause that requires a 2/3 vote of the legislature to make any further changes.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

Titan....I guess we just disagree. First the Civil war didn't start about slavery but that's a whole different discussion. Second, you aren't my judge of my Christianity. I am a Christian and God will be my judge. I have no anger in my heart or mind toward anyone who wants be a law abiding citizen. Slavery was a bad thing but it's over and everybody should get a grip on that fact and move on. An interesting tid bit......there were more white slaves from Europe sent to South America (primarily Brazil) than there were blacks to America but hey quit dwelling over it a long time ago.

You must have a different set of potential black friends than I do if saying I have a of friends offends them. Never had a problem.