AURaptor 1,121 Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Seems few here were ever taught why we had our policy with Cuba in the 1st place. The same "reason" we bombed the hell out of Viet Nam. The Soviets parked missiles there too ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homersapien 11,352 Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Seems few here were ever taught why we had our policy with Cuba in the 1st place. The same "reason" we bombed the hell out of Viet Nam. The Soviets parked missiles there too ? The Soviets quickly pulled their missiles out of Cuba under threat of war, while the embargo lasted for over 50 years. Try again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooltigger21 0 Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 It's not the worst thing in the world but anyone who believes we're going to be able to do anything to help the ordinary Cuban citizen is fooling themselves.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TitanTiger 20,469 Posted July 4, 2015 Author Share Posted July 4, 2015 It's not the worst thing in the world but anyone who believes we're going to be able to do anything to help the ordinary Cuban citizen is fooling themselves.. Any opening up of the Cuban economy will help. It may take a while for the seeds planted now to fully germinate, but it will happen. Once the genie is out of the bottle on this, there's no stuffing it back in. The average Chinese or Vietnamese citizen is much better off now than if either place had remained closed off and isolated from the rest of the world economically. Are they as well off as they could be with more freedom? Of course not and not one is arguing such for them or for Cuba. It's not the ultimate or ideal place we'd like them to be in. But the contrast is the current state of North Korea. No one would argue that Vietnam for instance isn't in a much better place than NK economically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AURaptor 1,121 Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 So no, they didn't park missiles in 'Nam. Which wasn't the same anyways, as Nam isn't 90 miles off the coast of Florida. The embargo has to do w/ the human rights and what the Castro brothers have done to the people of Cuba. You freely open up the doors to them, with out any thing in return to show for it, you're basically condoning their actions. The Castros aren't good folk. People did what ever they could to get the hell out of there. You're really in over your head on this one, Homie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TitanTiger 20,469 Posted July 4, 2015 Author Share Posted July 4, 2015 So no, they didn't park missiles in 'Nam. Which wasn't the same anyways, as Nam isn't 90 miles off the coast of Florida. The embargo has to do w/ the human rights and what the Castro brothers have done to the people of Cuba. You freely open up the doors to them, with out any thing in return to show for it, you're basically condoning their actions. The Castros aren't good folk. People did what ever they could to get the hell out of there. You're really in over your head on this one, Homie. Does Vietnam have some incredibly better record on human rights that I'm unaware of? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AURaptor 1,121 Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Talk about Cuba and what the Castros have done in Cuba. Don't try to sidetrack the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TitanTiger 20,469 Posted July 4, 2015 Author Share Posted July 4, 2015 Talk about Cuba and what the Castros have done in Cuba. Don't try to sidetrack the issue. It's not sidetracking. It's looking at how we handle similar situations as a guide or clue as to how we might handle Cuba. No one compartmentalizes ever single situation as if it has no connection or similarities to other situations in their lives. I see nothing unique about Cuba in our current day that warrants treating them totally differently than we handle other communist regimes who have less than stellar human rights records. In fact, I see some things we have done with those nations that we can apply to Cuba and see similar improvements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AURaptor 1,121 Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Cuba is like no other nation, and I think we should cater more to those who had to flee the tyranny of Fidel and the communist govt. They , who escaped Cuba, came HERE for freedom. Freedom which was denied them in their own country. We allow bygones to be bygones, as Obama is doing, you condone all that the communist thugs have done to that nation and its people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TitanTiger 20,469 Posted July 4, 2015 Author Share Posted July 4, 2015 Cuba is like no other nation, and I think we should cater more to those who had to flee the tyranny of Fidel and the communist govt. They , who escaped Cuba, came HERE for freedom. Freedom which was denied them in their own country. We allow bygones to be bygones, as Obama is doing, you condone all that the communist thugs have done to that nation and its people. They aren't all that unique. At least what makes them unique is not anything that should have any bearing on our policy toward them. I think 50 years is long enough to cater to the people who left Cuba for the US. There are larger issues at play than what a small percentage of the population wants. We don't steer our policy toward China by what ethnic Chinese who escaped it and came to the US want. And no one is saying "let bygones by bygones." That's just typical bull**** exaggeration from you to oversimply something into a strawman you can punch. It's opening up diplomatic relations so that the issues can be talked through rather than just refusing to discuss anything with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AURaptor 1,121 Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 The end result is exactly that. Bygones being bygones. We're getting exactly NOTHING out of this, and Cuba is getting all the benefits. That's freaking horrible, for the most powerful nation in the world to NOT be able to sway 1 little communist island nation to come around to granting more basic freedoms to their people. It's beyond pathetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TitanTiger 20,469 Posted July 4, 2015 Author Share Posted July 4, 2015 The end result is exactly that. Bygones being bygones. We're getting exactly NOTHING out of this, and Cuba is getting all the benefits. That's freaking horrible, for the most powerful nation in the world to NOT be able to sway 1 little communist island nation to come around to granting more basic freedoms to their people. It's beyond pathetic. No, it's not the end result. It could be an end result if that's what someone wished to do. But I see no indication that we intend to just open up the floodgates and act as if nothing happened. It's simply opening up talks, perhaps opening up some avenues such as allowing tourism and some limited trade again. It's called a carrot and stick approach. You seem to be stuck in "stick" mode. Stick mode is what we've done the last 50 years. It hasn't done anything to help. It's time for a slightly different approach similar to how we gradually opened relations with other similar regimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AURaptor 1,121 Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Same thing w/ Iran. Give them everything, and get nothing in return. It's this President's M.O. Titan , you're too naive. I don't take you for being an apologist for Barry. I just think you're buying into the B.S. of a sales job by this administration. And there is nothing 'slightly' different going on here. This is, as so often is the case w/ Obama, a very radical lurch to the Left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TitanTiger 20,469 Posted July 4, 2015 Author Share Posted July 4, 2015 Just for analogies' sake, look at another situation. Let's say you were once married but your wife betrayed and cheated on you. And more than just sleeping with someone else, she undermined you to your friends. Made up rumors and such. Let's say several decades later in life you decided to initiate contact with her and just see if you guys could become civil toward one another. Maybe reopen lines of communication, be able to be in the same room without avoiding one another, exchanging glares and so on. If you did decide to do that, does it necessarily entail acting as if she never did those terrible things? Does it mean that you have to "let bygones be bygones?" Or could it mean simply letting go of some grudges, being willing to revisit what happened and why she did what she did? Can you be willing to talk about the past, see if there's any chance to improve the relationship in the future, and let go of some of the hatred and pain without excusing what she did? Or is the only stance one can take if they have any self-respect is one of opposition and only being willing to talk if she initiates it by fully apologizing and falling on the sword? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TitanTiger 20,469 Posted July 4, 2015 Author Share Posted July 4, 2015 Same thing w/ Iran. Give them everything, and get nothing in return. It's this President's M.O. Titan , you're too naive. I don't take you for being an apologist for Barry. I just think you're buying into the B.S. of a sales job by this administration. I'm not. I've felt we needed to take steps like this for at least a decade or more. It has no connection to Obama or any sales pitch he's making over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homersapien 11,352 Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 So no, they didn't park missiles in 'Nam. Which wasn't the same anyways, as Nam isn't 90 miles off the coast of Florida. The embargo has to do w/ the human rights and what the Castro brothers have done to the people of Cuba. You freely open up the doors to them, with out any thing in return to show for it, you're basically condoning their actions. The Castros aren't good folk. People did what ever they could to get the hell out of there. You're really in over your head on this one, Homie. Your first sentence makes no sense. You are the one who implied the missiles in Cuba as being the reason for the embargo. I never said anything about missiles being relevant to why we bombed Viet Nam or embargoed Cuba. I said the (ultimate) reason we bombed Viet Nam was the same as the reason we embargoed Cuba. And it had nothing to do with human rights. There have been plenty of countries that abused the human rights of their citizens without any response at all by the US. The abuse of human rights - as deplorable as that may be - has rarely motivated the US to bomb or embargo other countries. So think about what Cuba and Viet Nam had in common. But if human rights is your concern regarding Cuba, what do you contend the effect of dropping the embargo will have on Cuba? How will the increase of intercourse between Cuba and Americans impact the ability of the Cuban government to keep a lid on their people's aspirations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homersapien 11,352 Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Talk about Cuba and what the Castros have done in Cuba. Don't try to sidetrack the issue. He's not "side tracking" the issue. In fact, Titan is simply following the discussion where you are taking it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homersapien 11,352 Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 The end result is exactly that. Bygones being bygones. We're getting exactly NOTHING out of this, and Cuba is getting all the benefits. That's freaking horrible, for the most powerful nation in the world to NOT be able to sway 1 little communist island nation to come around to granting more basic freedoms to their people. It's beyond pathetic. We are getting plenty out of it. If our objective is to change Cuba, this is an obvious way to do it. Accordingly, the Cuban people will realize even more direct benefit from the intercourse. Heck, tourism alone with open up Cuba to the internet. On the other hand, maintenance of the status quo - apparently as you see it, to "punish" the Castro's - will have no benefit to the Cuban people nor to ourselves. (Not to mention how crazy it is to stick to a 53 year-old policy that has resulted in no positive results.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homersapien 11,352 Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 The end result is exactly that. Bygones being bygones. We're getting exactly NOTHING out of this, and Cuba is getting all the benefits. That's freaking horrible, for the most powerful nation in the world to NOT be able to sway 1 little communist island nation to come around to granting more basic freedoms to their people. It's beyond pathetic. Well the current policy is 53 years old, so maybe it's time to re-think it. :-\ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homersapien 11,352 Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Same thing w/ Iran. Give them everything, and get nothing in return. It's this President's M.O. Titan , you're too naive. I don't take you for being an apologist for Barry. I just think you're buying into the B.S. of a sales job by this administration. And there is nothing 'slightly' different going on here. This is, as so often is the case w/ Obama, a very radical lurch to the Left. Ah, I think we are finally starting to touch on the actual basis of your position. It's Obama. Well, that at least explains your total lack of logic in the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quietfan 233 Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 The end result is exactly that. Bygones being bygones. We're getting exactly NOTHING out of this, and Cuba is getting all the benefits. That's freaking horrible, for the most powerful nation in the world to NOT be able to sway 1 little communist island nation to come around to granting more basic freedoms to their people. It's beyond pathetic. Well the current policy is 53 years old, so maybe it's time to re-think it. :-\ Exactly. The current 53-year-old policy is clearly a failure, so it's time to try something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homersapien 11,352 Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 The end result is exactly that. Bygones being bygones. We're getting exactly NOTHING out of this, and Cuba is getting all the benefits. That's freaking horrible, for the most powerful nation in the world to NOT be able to sway 1 little communist island nation to come around to granting more basic freedoms to their people. It's beyond pathetic. Well the current policy is 53 years old, so maybe it's time to re-think it. :-\ Exactly. The current 53-year-old policy is clearly a failure, so it's time to try something else. Well, it didn't actually become a failure until Obama gave up on it. It was working great. Just needed a little more time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AURaptor 1,121 Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Is trying something else only suppose to mean we cave, and they get all the benefits of defying our demands to open up their society ? Apparently so. Those who knew Cuba as it was, and who know Castro for who he is, understand why this is a bad idea. Those who have no clue of what the " revolution " ended up being are cool w/ it. Ignorance seems to be on Obama's side. As well as his followers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TitanTiger 20,469 Posted July 4, 2015 Author Share Posted July 4, 2015 Is trying something else only suppose to mean we cave, and they get all the benefits of defying our demands to open up their society ? Apparently so. Those who knew Cuba as it was, and who know Castro for who he is, understand why this is a bad idea. Those who have no clue of what the " revolution " ended up being are cool w/ it. Ignorance seems to be on Obama's side. As well as his followers. How have we "caved" by opening up talks? We've offered a couple of things, some of which benefit American citizens and businesses. That's it. You act like something has happened here that simply hasn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homersapien 11,352 Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Is trying something else only suppose to mean we cave, and they get all the benefits of defying our demands to open up their society ? Apparently so. Well, what have you got? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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