An interesting video from Reason.com regarding Alt-med

[AUDub 11,147]

[AURaptor 1,122]

"... becoming the science of the day ".

Yep. Govt approved and paid for, by you and me.

Good grief. Great vid. Reminds me a lot of what I've heard and read from skeptics James Randi and Michael Shermer, who are so adamant about pulling back the curtain on quacks and con artists who role play as healers and the like.

Plenty can be said on this topic w/ out even going into the politics, but I still have to toss out a couple of bits.

Anyone remember Hillary and her claims to have spoken , frequently, w/ the ghost of Elanor Roosevelt ? Personally , I don't believe SHE believes any such crap, but she knows it sells to many , which is why she mentions it. She'll say or do anything..

But per the video, can't help but notice the spending chart, sky rocketing up during Democratic Presidential terms, leveling off during GOP. I guess the drop in $ going to the NIH might reflect the shift of funds going into O-Care, to cover such quackery.

And of course, Tom Harkin, is a big time Dem. But it'd be just as insane no matter who was behind it.

[homersapien 11,362]

There's nothing wrong in principal with government funded research into alternative methods, especially if Americans are spending over $10 B on them. The NIH debunking the effectiveness of such methods has value.

The problem here - as Harkin's ignorant comments clearly reveal - is the crossover into advocacy, which is clearly very dangerous. If you throw enough money at something you will create a constituency. (To me the most controversial aspect of the video was the participation of so many medical schools in seeking grants. But it's hard to make a final judgement on this without more details. For example, I would hope that work conducted under such a grant would be a valid scientific test of such methods.)

I predict that the provision in the ACA for funding non-scientific therapies will not last very long. Healthcare is too expensive as it is. We cannot afford to fund therapies that are not based on valid science.

Bottom line, government should fund research to evaluate alternative medicine but not support anything that has not passed this evaluation. And the determination of what merits evaluation should be made by scientists, not politicians.

[AURaptor 1,122]

There's nothing wrong in principal with government funded research into alternative methods, especially if Americans are spending over $10 B on them. The NIH debunking the effectiveness of such methods has value.

And yet Tom Harkin was whining about just that. HE wanted the NIH to rubber stamp alternative meds, not actually test to see if they benefit anyone.

The problem here - as Harkin's ignorant comments clearly reveal - is the crossover into advocacy, which is clearly very dangerous. If you throw enough money at something you will create a constituency. (To me the most controversial aspect of the video was the participation of so many medical schools in seeking grants. But it's hard to make a final judgement on this without more details. For example, I would hope that work conducted under such a grant would be a valid scientific test of such methods.)

And yet, when the same govt is passing out grants on Global Warming, you buy into it all, just as blindly as Harkin does Alternative Meds. Why ? Same reason. Crossing over the line and becoming an advocate.

I predict that the provision in the ACA for funding non-scientific therapies will not last very long. Healthcare is too expensive as it is. We cannot afford to fund therapies that are not based on valid science.

Because almost 25 years and billions of dollars is JUST the right amount of time to see whether or not this quackery is worth wasting the people's money on , and not before now ?

Bottom line, government should fund research to evaluate alternative medicine but not support anything that has not passed this evaluation. And the determination of what merits evaluation should be made by scientists, not politicians.

No, it shouldn't. The merits of alternative meds should stand on their own, w/ out intervention from the federal govt. It's not for the govt to DISPROVE something, it should be up to Alt Med to makes its case. So far, it has failed to do so.

NO federal $ to Alt Med. PERIOD. Unless and until it can show independent , repeatable cases where it works. AT ALL.

BTW - How'd that Federal $ to Solyndra pay off for everyone ?

[homersapien 11,362]

There's nothing wrong in principal with government funded research into alternative methods, especially if Americans are spending over $10 B on them. The NIH debunking the effectiveness of such methods has value.

And yet Tom Harkin was whining about just that. HE wanted the NIH to rubber stamp alternative meds, not actually test to see if they benefit anyone.

Exactly. Which I acknowledged later in my post.

The problem here - as Harkin's ignorant comments clearly reveal - is the crossover into advocacy, which is clearly very dangerous. If you throw enough money at something you will create a constituency. (To me the most controversial aspect of the video was the participation of so many medical schools in seeking grants. But it's hard to make a final judgement on this without more details. For example, I would hope that work conducted under such a grant would be a valid scientific test of such methods.)

And yet, when the same govt is passing out grants on Global Warming, you buy into it all, just as blindly as Harkin does Alternative Meds. Why ? Same reason. Crossing over the line and becoming an advocate.

No, you are wrong. The research grants related to climate change are just for that. Research.

Government has a powerful and appropriate role in funding basic research.

The claim government is funding research with an expected outcome is a bogus attempt to discredit the results of the research being done. That's pretty lame considering the results are corroborated by other scientists around the world.

I predict that the provision in the ACA for funding non-scientific therapies will not last very long. Healthcare is too expensive as it is. We cannot afford to fund therapies that are not based on valid science.

Because almost 25 years and billions of dollars is JUST the right amount of time to see whether or not this quackery is worth wasting the people's money on , and not before now ?

That sentence is nonsensical. Try again.

Bottom line, government should fund research to evaluate alternative medicine but not support anything that has not passed this evaluation. And the determination of what merits evaluation should be made by scientists, not politicians.

No, it shouldn't. The merits of alternative meds should stand on their own, w/ out intervention from the federal govt. It's not for the govt to DISPROVE something, it should be up to Alt Med to makes its case. So far, it has failed to do so.

NO federal $ to Alt Med. PERIOD. Unless and until it can show independent , repeatable cases where it works. AT ALL.

That depends on exactly what you mean by "alternative meds (sic)" and the hypothesis behind them. Some alternatives clearly don't merit research, others do.

There is still a lot about medicine we don't understand, such as the placebo effect. Basic research into alternatives is not necessarily a bad thing.

[AURaptor 1,122]

homie, you're naive enough to believe that the govt will STOP wasting $ on ... ANYTHING.

I predict that the provision in the ACA for funding non-scientific therapies will not last very long. Healthcare is too expensive as it is. We cannot afford to fund therapies that are not based on valid science.

" Because almost 25 years and billions of dollars is JUST the right amount of time to see whether or not this quackery is worth wasting the people's money on , and not before now ? "

That sentence is nonsensical. Try again.

The point you're not GETTING is that you think some how the billions spent on Alt-Med , which is now a part of O-Care, will magically dry up and be spent on more useful, PROVEN medicines.

Bless your heart.

[homersapien 11,362]

homie, you're naive enough to believe that the govt will STOP wasting $ on ... ANYTHING.

I predict that the provision in the ACA for funding non-scientific therapies will not last very long. Healthcare is too expensive as it is. We cannot afford to fund therapies that are not based on valid science.

" Because almost 25 years and billions of dollars is JUST the right amount of time to see whether or not this quackery is worth wasting the people's money on , and not before now ? "

That sentence is nonsensical. Try again.

The point you're not GETTING is that you think some how the billions spent on Alt-Med , which is now a part of O-Care, will magically dry up and be spent on more useful, PROVEN medicines.

Bless your heart.

I am not getting what "I think".

That still doesn't make sense. Try again.

[DKW 86 7,419]

Let me try.

Homie, If you think that the US Federal Govt is going to stop wasting money on Alt-Med...well you just aint right.

When has the US Federal Govt ever stopped wasting money on ANYTHING, no matter how stoopid?

$700 toilet seats.

$288K to move a VA ripoff artist 35 miles.

etc...

[AURaptor 1,122]

As I said before... some simply lack the intellectual capacity to follow along.

[homersapien 11,362]

Let me try.

Homie, If you think that the US Federal Govt is going to stop wasting money on Alt-Med...well you just aint right.

When has the US Federal Govt ever stopped wasting money on ANYTHING, no matter how stoopid?

$700 toilet seats.

$288K to move a VA ripoff artist 35 miles.

etc...

As I recall, there was a big controversy over base closings not to long ago. The government wanted to save money but the citizens - including many Republicans - rebelled. The same was true for several weapons systems.

I am not impressed by absolutist statements driven by simple thinking and a few anecdotes. In the end, the government does what the people want it to. It's politically convenient to think of the government as an independent entity, but in the end, that's not true.

But hey, maybe you're right. Maybe the constituency for quack medicine will be strong enough to keep that spending in place. Considering the scientific literacy of the public, it's possible. Personally, I kind of doubt it, but I could be wrong.

[homersapien 11,362]

As I said before... some simply lack the intellectual capacity to follow along.

You can make up for that with a little more work.

[DKW 86 7,419]

Let me try.

Homie, If you think that the US Federal Govt is going to stop wasting money on Alt-Med...well you just aint right.

When has the US Federal Govt ever stopped wasting money on ANYTHING, no matter how stoopid?

$700 toilet seats.

$288K to move a VA ripoff artist 35 miles.

etc...

As I recall, there was a big controversy over base closings not to long ago. The government wanted to save money but the citizens - including many Republicans - rebelled. The same was true for several weapons systems.

I am not impressed by absolutist statements driven by simple thinking and a few anecdotes. In the end, the government does what the people want it to. It's politically convenient to think of the government as an independent entity, but in the end, that's not true.

But hey, maybe you're right. Maybe the constituency for quack medicine will be strong enough to keep that spending in place. Considering the scientific literacy of the public, it's possible. Personally, I kind of doubt it, but I could be wrong.

Halliburton says hi...

[AURaptor 1,122]

But hey, maybe you're right. Maybe the constituency for quack medicine will be strong enough to keep that spending in place. Considering the scientific literacy of the public, it's possible. Personally, I kind of doubt it, but I could be wrong.

The public aren't driving the massive spending by the govt on this matter. It's folks like Harkin and those who benefit from such massive grants. You'd think there'd be enough gullible dolts out there to finance such quackery, but apparently the industry needs even MORE money, and where else better to get boat loads of it w/ out any questions asked, but your Imperial Federal Govt.

[channonc 466]

Let me just start by saying this is an issue with which I have personal experience. I had quite a battle with several health issues that several doctors and specialists couldn't explain or effectively treat. Once I started with regular acupuncture sessions, my pain and other symptoms slowly disappeared. I still do regular acupuncture sessions (about every 4 weeks) and find that it really helps me maintain my health.

I believe especially with acupuncture, it can be used very effectively in conjunction with traditional medicine and have met lots of people fighting cancer, looking to conceive, who have found that their bodies respond better to traditional therapies when coupled with acupuncture. And like my experience, may actually be able to treat things that traditional medicine simply can't.

All of that being said, I do believe there are quacks out there who are selling "magic potion" and have the worst of intentions. While I appreciate that there are several studies that say acupuncture isn't effective, there are also some that say it may be effective.

[homersapien 11,362]

Let me just start by saying this is an issue with which I have personal experience. I had quite a battle with several health issues that several doctors and specialists couldn't explain or effectively treat. Once I started with regular acupuncture sessions, my pain and other symptoms slowly disappeared. I still do regular acupuncture sessions (about every 4 weeks) and find that it really helps me maintain my health.

I believe especially with acupuncture, it can be used very effectively in conjunction with traditional medicine and have met lots of people fighting cancer, looking to conceive, who have found that their bodies respond better to traditional therapies when coupled with acupuncture. And like my experience, may actually be able to treat things that traditional medicine simply can't.

All of that being said, I do believe there are quacks out there who are selling "magic potion" and have the worst of intentions. While I appreciate that there are several studies that say acupuncture isn't effective, there are also some that say it may be effective.

Acupuncture is one of those alternatives that have been shown to work, we just don't know why.

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2011/09/a-healthy-poke-demystifying-the-science-behind-acupuncture/245816/

[DKW 86 7,419]

channonc there are valid treatments out there. Like homie, I don't consider acupuncture to be quackery. Now, Joggin-in-a-Jug is another thing. I am a vitamin junkie. But I am not asking for the govt to pay for them. I am not taking anything that you wouldn't recognize. I do take some ginseng, that might be questionable.

[AURaptor 1,122]

I know chiropractic works, but I think the list of problems that it cures is probably exaggerated.

[Grumps 3,704]

Great video! Thanks for sharing. What really amazes me is that the people who take $300 a month of "natural supplements" will refuse to take an indisputably proven treatment for something like hypertension.

[AUDub 11,147]

I know chiropractic works, but I think the list of problems that it cures is probably exaggerated.

The guy that created the practice preached that he could cure diseases like the common cold with it, so yeah.

Chiropractic works about as well as mainstream physiotherapy for some conditions, claims to treat conditions it can't, has a tendency to try to bleed you dry, and might kill you, as it's not uncommon for patients to be injured during "therapy."

[AUDub 11,147]

Let me just start by saying this is an issue with which I have personal experience. I had quite a battle with several health issues that several doctors and specialists couldn't explain or effectively treat. Once I started with regular acupuncture sessions, my pain and other symptoms slowly disappeared. I still do regular acupuncture sessions (about every 4 weeks) and find that it really helps me maintain my health.

I believe especially with acupuncture, it can be used very effectively in conjunction with traditional medicine and have met lots of people fighting cancer, looking to conceive, who have found that their bodies respond better to traditional therapies when coupled with acupuncture. And like my experience, may actually be able to treat things that traditional medicine simply can't.

All of that being said, I do believe there are quacks out there who are selling "magic potion" and have the worst of intentions. While I appreciate that there are several studies that say acupuncture isn't effective, there are also some that say it may be effective.

Acupuncture is one of those alternatives that have been shown to work, we just don't know why.

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2011/09/a-healthy-poke-demystifying-the-science-behind-acupuncture/245816/

Well it sure as hell isn't because of properly directed "chi," which is how it's supposed to function. Acupuncture researchers have yet to show consistent, statistically significant, and relevant effects in proper clinical trials. Not for lack of trying, though. Lot of money spent on it.

[AU_Tiger_88 417]

Great video! Thanks for sharing. What really amazes me is that the people who take $300 a month of "natural supplements" will refuse to take an indisputably proven treatment for something like hypertension.

nor will they change their diets which could also help to alleviate some of their problems. Great nutrition can clear up some medical problems that folks have that they take pills to treat. Nor will some people effectively add exercise into their routines which can help to lower blood pressure among other benefits

[channonc 466]

Let me just start by saying this is an issue with which I have personal experience. I had quite a battle with several health issues that several doctors and specialists couldn't explain or effectively treat. Once I started with regular acupuncture sessions, my pain and other symptoms slowly disappeared. I still do regular acupuncture sessions (about every 4 weeks) and find that it really helps me maintain my health.

I believe especially with acupuncture, it can be used very effectively in conjunction with traditional medicine and have met lots of people fighting cancer, looking to conceive, who have found that their bodies respond better to traditional therapies when coupled with acupuncture. And like my experience, may actually be able to treat things that traditional medicine simply can't.

All of that being said, I do believe there are quacks out there who are selling "magic potion" and have the worst of intentions. While I appreciate that there are several studies that say acupuncture isn't effective, there are also some that say it may be effective.

Acupuncture is one of those alternatives that have been shown to work, we just don't know why.

http://www.theatlant...uncture/245816/

Homer, I agree, but I was really directing my criticism with the video itself. A lot of the clips showed people being treated with acupuncture and cupping (another method acupuncturists sometimes use) and they showed newspaper clips at the end with headlines that were critical of the practice.

All that being said, had I not had some very real health problems that had no "western solution," I probably would have no real opinion on this stuff. But frankly, some things just can't be proven, but can be known through personal experience.

While this was a small trial in Australia, there were positive results using acupuncture in emergency rooms to treat pain.

[channonc 466]

Let me just start by saying this is an issue with which I have personal experience. I had quite a battle with several health issues that several doctors and specialists couldn't explain or effectively treat. Once I started with regular acupuncture sessions, my pain and other symptoms slowly disappeared. I still do regular acupuncture sessions (about every 4 weeks) and find that it really helps me maintain my health.

I believe especially with acupuncture, it can be used very effectively in conjunction with traditional medicine and have met lots of people fighting cancer, looking to conceive, who have found that their bodies respond better to traditional therapies when coupled with acupuncture. And like my experience, may actually be able to treat things that traditional medicine simply can't.

All of that being said, I do believe there are quacks out there who are selling "magic potion" and have the worst of intentions. While I appreciate that there are several studies that say acupuncture isn't effective, there are also some that say it may be effective.

Acupuncture is one of those alternatives that have been shown to work, we just don't know why.

http://www.theatlant...uncture/245816/

Well it sure as hell isn't because of properly directed "chi," which is how it's supposed to function. Acupuncture researchers have yet to show consistent, statistically significant, and relevant effects in proper clinical trials. Not for lack of trying, though. Lot of money spent on it.

That's a rather bold statement that can be neither proven or disproven.

[channonc 466]

Great video! Thanks for sharing. What really amazes me is that the people who take $300 a month of "natural supplements" will refuse to take an indisputably proven treatment for something like hypertension.

nor will they change their diets which could also help to alleviate some of their problems. Great nutrition can clear up some medical problems that folks have that they take pills to treat. Nor will some people effectively add exercise into their routines which can help to lower blood pressure among other benefits

Absolutely 100% agree with this. Diet is key to solving most health problems.

[AUDub 11,147]

Let me just start by saying this is an issue with which I have personal experience. I had quite a battle with several health issues that several doctors and specialists couldn't explain or effectively treat. Once I started with regular acupuncture sessions, my pain and other symptoms slowly disappeared. I still do regular acupuncture sessions (about every 4 weeks) and find that it really helps me maintain my health.

I believe especially with acupuncture, it can be used very effectively in conjunction with traditional medicine and have met lots of people fighting cancer, looking to conceive, who have found that their bodies respond better to traditional therapies when coupled with acupuncture. And like my experience, may actually be able to treat things that traditional medicine simply can't.

All of that being said, I do believe there are quacks out there who are selling "magic potion" and have the worst of intentions. While I appreciate that there are several studies that say acupuncture isn't effective, there are also some that say it may be effective.

Acupuncture is one of those alternatives that have been shown to work, we just don't know why.

http://www.theatlant...uncture/245816/

Well it sure as hell isn't because of properly directed "chi," which is how it's supposed to function. Acupuncture researchers have yet to show consistent, statistically significant, and relevant effects in proper clinical trials. Not for lack of trying, though. Lot of money spent on it.

That's a rather bold statement that can be neither proven or disproven.

Acupuncture may have some as yet unproven medical benefit, but I can state unequivocally that the conclusion that it heals through properly aligned chi is fantasy.

And the clinical trials aspect is 100% fact.