Two Threads: One Common Point...

[DKW 86 7,418]

Have we as Americans reached the point where we have listened to the pointy head talking heads so much that we no longer are governable?

I say this in reflecting on two threads we have going on now.

1) In one, we have a quorum to maybe just over half or more of the forum that now see that the ACA was basically set up to fail. We paid off Big Pharma. We paid off Big Insurance. We had Professor Gruber and all tell us that (paraphrasing here) "We didnt get the health care plan we wanted. We lied to get this. Everyone knows that." I firmly believe that the ACA will be rewritten soon and whomever rewrites it will be a hero because the ACA was not designed to make anyone happy. Single payer was always the ultimate goal, but to get there, THE POLS DECIDED TO EDUCATE US BY INFLICTING ENOUGH PAIN ON THE MIDDLE CLASS THAT THEY WOULD EVENTUALLY SUPPORT WHAT THE POLS KNEW HAD TO HAPPEN.

2) The State of Alabama Budget Mess: SSDD. Ultimately they are going to inconvenience enough folks that we, the middle class of Alabama will eventually demand a raise in taxes to cover the Drivers License Offices and the State Parks Re-Opening. Politics being what it is in Alabama, IE Right Wing (Read LImbaugh-Hannity Mindlessly Validate My Own Crazy Ideas Extremism) where people will endorse things that actually hurt their family over time so that they can appear to be quasi-religious to the point where they now find themselves having to attack The Pope for being TOO LIBERAL. If your money (or capitalism) means more to you than doing the right thing by those less fortunate than you, sucks to be you. THE POLS DECIDED TO EDUCATE US BY INFLICTING ENOUGH PAIN ON THE MIDDLE CLASS THAT THEY WOULD EVENTUALLY SUPPORT WHAT THE POLS KNEW HAD TO HAPPEN.

The crux is this: We have become ungovernable. We are really the TEA Party by and large. Have we reached the point where we must be treated like children to be lead to the right place?

[AFTiger 282]

The POLS have not attempted to educate us. They are punishing us for not supporting wasteful spending or allowing our freedom to be taken away. The best example was when Obama shut down government and closed the the WWII memorial to all but an illegal immigrant protest.

It reminds me of the Board of Education that threaten to shutdown sports if the latest proposed tax increase is not approved. Government should not be making my decisions for me.

[japantiger 4,051]

The POLS have not attempted to educate us. They are punishing us for not supporting wasteful spending or allowing our freedom to be taken away. The best example was when Obama shut down government and closed the the WWII memorial to all but a illegal immigrant protest.

It reminds me of the Board of Education that threaten to shutdown sports if the latest proposed tax increase is not approved. Government should not be making my decisions for me.

I really have no perspective on the Alabama point made above (frankly didn't understand it as I don't live there or read on state matters other than football); but, 100% agree on this point...ACA was none of the damn gov'ts business in the first place...this was a democrat wet dream cradle to grave entitlement/control program run amok. If the gov't controls health care; it can regulate everything...this needs to be torn down and never broached again.

[AFTiger 282]

DK, Obama himself that his goal was to destroy private health care

Also, being governed by the elites frightens the hell out of me. Can you imagine being governed by some the self anointed elites on this board?

[japantiger 4,051]

DK, Obama himself that his goal was to destroy private health care

Also, being governed by the elites frightens the hell out of me. Can you imagine being governed by some the self anointed elites on this board?

Read any of the following... "1984", "Catch 22", "Fahrenheit 451", "Anthem", "Atlas Shrugged" etc...or the new versions that seem to be opening the eyes of some of the youth "Hunger Games", "Divergent" series...or, just read a good history book on the history of humankind....so yes, I can imagine it...for some here that appear to lazy to actually read and comprehend history, try the History Channel...or better yet just ask anyone who survived the Holocaust, Hitler in General, Stalin, Brezhnev, Pol Pot, ...or ask a veteran who was there when they liberated the death camps...my father described it to me in grizzly, living color detail...it never left his mind...some here seem to think because it is Americans wanting to take your liberty; it will be OK...how ludicrous. Gov't must be restrained....Gov'ts take, plunder, usurp and ultimately wield the power of life and death....

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

DK, Obama himself that his goal was to destroy private health care

Also, being governed by the elites frightens the hell out of me. Can you imagine being governed by some the self anointed elites on this board?

Read any of the following... "1984", "Catch 22", "Fahrenheit 451", "Anthem", "Atlas Shrugged" etc...or the new versions that seem to be opening the eyes of some of the youth "Hunger Games", "Divergent" series...or, just read a good history book on the history of humankind....so yes, I can imagine it...for some here that appear to lazy to actually read and comprehend history, try the History Channel...or better yet just ask anyone who survived the Holocaust, Hitler in General, Stalin, Brezhnev, Pol Pot, ...or ask a veteran who was there when they liberated the death camps...my father described it to me in grizzly, living color detail...it never left his mind...some here seem to think because it is Americans wanting to take your liberty; it will be OK...how ludicrous. Gov't must be restrained....Gov'ts take, plunder, usurp and ultimately wield the power of life and death....

If you want an interesting account of WWII history with a lot gory details read "Killing Patton."

[icanthearyou 4,462]

DK, Obama himself that his goal was to destroy private health care

Also, being governed by the elites frightens the hell out of me. Can you imagine being governed by some the self anointed elites on this board?

Read any of the following... "1984", "Catch 22", "Fahrenheit 451", "Anthem", "Atlas Shrugged" etc...or the new versions that seem to be opening the eyes of some of the youth "Hunger Games", "Divergent" series...or, just read a good history book on the history of humankind....so yes, I can imagine it...for some here that appear to lazy to actually read and comprehend history, try the History Channel...or better yet just ask anyone who survived the Holocaust, Hitler in General, Stalin, Brezhnev, Pol Pot, ...or ask a veteran who was there when they liberated the death camps...my father described it to me in grizzly, living color detail...it never left his mind...some here seem to think because it is Americans wanting to take your liberty; it will be OK...how ludicrous. Gov't must be restrained....Gov'ts take, plunder, usurp and ultimately wield the power of life and death....

So, we should undermine government simply to restrain government? We should heed the words of works of fiction as the absolute and inevitable outcome of our government. Golly gee whiz, you take the worst governments, run by the most vicious tyrants in history, mix in a little political, futuristic, post-apocalyptic fiction and, we are all suppose to be scared to death of government? This is what should drive us? This amalgamation of the worst of history and fiction is the basis of rational thought? Should this "threat" really be the foundation of our political thinking? Is that reality? Honestly, does that sound sane and lucid?

I think it makes a lot more sense to just go back to being a "government of the people". Why don't we go back to thinking for ourselves rather than believing in the silliness of self-serving ideologues? Why not vote for people with honor, integrity, honesty, and a desire to serve the greater good rather than, self serving liars and thieves who seek to exploit public service for the personal gains of power and wealth?

Why not go back to respecting democracy and one another? Why not try compromise rather than digging in on positions based on the rhetoric and narratives of disingenuous ideologues and corrupt politicians.

Perhaps the true lesson from history is more about the danger people who were willing to trade their common principles for the irrational fears, and unrealistic promises promoted by the rhetoric of dishonest, devious ideologues.

Our demons are not found in the worst tyrants the world has ever seen. They are not in post-apocalyptic fiction and, certainly not in some twisted combination. They do not even reside in the boogeyman of "big government". They lie in our willingness to put aside principles and reality in favor of fear and rhetorical nonsense, our willingness to be divided by that fear and nonsense. This is what happens when you are willing to substitute entertainment and rhetoric for real knowledge and genuine principle.

We need to appreciate our unity, our democracy, and respect one another before it is too late.

[autigeremt 6,588]

The longer it goes like this the less I feel we will turn it around. I see bright spots here and there but to be totally honest it will take a very strong person in leadership to put their head down and drive through this mess and rally the people at the same time. A simple statement I know, but one I believe is needed.

[icanthearyou 4,462]

The longer it goes like this the less I feel we will turn it around. I see bright spots here and there but to be totally honest it will take a very strong person in leadership to put their head down and drive through this mess and rally the people at the same time. A simple statement I know, but one I believe is needed.

I think (not totally sure, the word "ungovernable" threw me off) that gets to the heart of what DKW is alluding to in the OP. We are suppose to be the government. If we need someone to restore the sense of who we are, we are already in deep.

DKW, clarification?

[japantiger 4,051]

The longer it goes like this the less I feel we will turn it around. I see bright spots here and there but to be totally honest it will take a very strong person in leadership to put their head down and drive through this mess and rally the people at the same time. A simple statement I know, but one I believe is needed.

I think (not totally sure, the word "ungovernable" threw me off) that gets to the heart of what DKW is alluding to in the OP. We are suppose to be the government. If we need someone to restore the sense of who we are, we are already in deep.

DKW, clarification?

Very good point...we do not live to be governed...the government is supposed to serve us...not lord over us.

[cooltigger21 0]

If single payer comes about, there won't be a private option like there is in Great Britain. You'll use the government system or do without.

[icanthearyou 4,462]

If single payer comes about, there won't be a private option like there is in Great Britain. You'll use the government system or do without.

How do you know this?

[cooltigger21 0]

The longer it goes like this the less I feel we will turn it around. I see bright spots here and there but to be totally honest it will take a very strong person in leadership to put their head down and drive through this mess and rally the people at the same time. A simple statement I know, but one I believe is needed.

I think (not totally sure, the word "ungovernable" threw me off) that gets to the heart of what DKW is alluding to in the OP. We are suppose to be the government. If we need someone to restore the sense of who we are, we are already in deep.

DKW, clarification?

Very good point...we do not live to be governed...the government is supposed to serve us...not lord over us.

According to the elites, you won't make the correct decisions if left to your own devices. You need them to run your life for you.

[icanthearyou 4,462]

The longer it goes like this the less I feel we will turn it around. I see bright spots here and there but to be totally honest it will take a very strong person in leadership to put their head down and drive through this mess and rally the people at the same time. A simple statement I know, but one I believe is needed.

I think (not totally sure, the word "ungovernable" threw me off) that gets to the heart of what DKW is alluding to in the OP. We are suppose to be the government. If we need someone to restore the sense of who we are, we are already in deep.

DKW, clarification?

Very good point...we do not live to be governed...the government is supposed to serve us...not lord over us.

According to the elites, you won't make the correct decisions if left to your own devices. You need them to run your life for you.

Where did you hear this? Who are the "elites" saying this?

[autigeremt 6,588]

The longer it goes like this the less I feel we will turn it around. I see bright spots here and there but to be totally honest it will take a very strong person in leadership to put their head down and drive through this mess and rally the people at the same time. A simple statement I know, but one I believe is needed.

I think (not totally sure, the word "ungovernable" threw me off) that gets to the heart of what DKW is alluding to in the OP. We are suppose to be the government. If we need someone to restore the sense of who we are, we are already in deep.

DKW, clarification?

Very good point...we do not live to be governed...the government is supposed to serve us...not lord over us.

According to the elites, you won't make the correct decisions if left to your own devices. You need them to run your life for you.

Where did you hear this? Who are the "elites" saying this?

I "believe" that the day government has the power to control your healthcare is the day they have power over us all. It may not be in your face....but it will control you. My opinion.

[japantiger 4,051]

DK, Obama himself that his goal was to destroy private health care

Also, being governed by the elites frightens the hell out of me. Can you imagine being governed by some the self anointed elites on this board?

Read any of the following... "1984", "Catch 22", "Fahrenheit 451", "Anthem", "Atlas Shrugged" etc...or the new versions that seem to be opening the eyes of some of the youth "Hunger Games", "Divergent" series...or, just read a good history book on the history of humankind....so yes, I can imagine it...for some here that appear to lazy to actually read and comprehend history, try the History Channel...or better yet just ask anyone who survived the Holocaust, Hitler in General, Stalin, Brezhnev, Pol Pot, ...or ask a veteran who was there when they liberated the death camps...my father described it to me in grizzly, living color detail...it never left his mind...some here seem to think because it is Americans wanting to take your liberty; it will be OK...how ludicrous. Gov't must be restrained....Gov'ts take, plunder, usurp and ultimately wield the power of life and death....

So, we should undermine government simply to restrain government? We should heed the words of works of fiction as the absolute and inevitable outcome of our government. Golly gee whiz, you take the worst governments, run by the most vicious tyrants in history, mix in a little political, futuristic, post-apocalyptic fiction and, we are all suppose to be scared to death of government? This is what should drive us? This amalgamation of the worst of history and fiction is the basis of rational thought? Should this "threat" really be the foundation of our political thinking? Is that reality? Honestly, does that sound sane and lucid?

I think it makes a lot more sense to just go back to being a "government of the people". Why don't we go back to thinking for ourselves rather than believing in the silliness of self-serving ideologues? Why not vote for people with honor, integrity, honesty, and a desire to serve the greater good rather than, self serving liars and thieves who seek to exploit public service for the personal gains of power and wealth?

Why not go back to respecting democracy and one another? Why not try compromise rather than digging in on positions based on the rhetoric and narratives of disingenuous ideologues and corrupt politicians.

Perhaps the true lesson from history is more about the danger people who were willing to trade their common principles for the irrational fears, and unrealistic promises promoted by the rhetoric of dishonest, devious ideologues.

Our demons are not found in the worst tyrants the world has ever seen. They are not in post-apocalyptic fiction and, certainly not in some twisted combination. They do not even reside in the boogeyman of "big government". They lie in our willingness to put aside principles and reality in favor of fear and rhetorical nonsense, our willingness to be divided by that fear and nonsense. This is what happens when you are willing to substitute entertainment and rhetoric for real knowledge and genuine principle.

We need to appreciate our unity, our democracy, and respect one another before it is too late.

You don't undermine gov't by restraining it...you make it focus and accomplish something; you make it serve the people...not the other way around. Gov't is supposed to serve; not be served. Priorities and limiting scope and requiring focus are the nature of success. You cannot try to do everything for everyone and expect to do anything well for anyone. And yes, just look to the writings of those that created the nation; a bloated distant government with capricious and unlimited power; the power of life and death; is antithetical to freedom. They knew this first hand....The nature of gov't is to expand and control everything... until it is either restrained or overthrown from without or within. Our founders overthrew from within; and created a limited and restrained gov't; by contract no less....and that is about as lucid and sane as you can get.

The fictions of the last 200 years did not come out of thin air. They came out of the experiences of history and particularly the norm for that period. They come out of our own history. They are not an exaggeration or a caricature; they are history..they are the very nature of "human nature". The history of civilizations comes with those that want to lord over others. Whether it be the Greeks, the Persians, the Romans, the Byzantines, the Babylonians, the Egyptians, the Hittites, the Islamic 500 year "golden age", the Khmer, the Mayans, the Incas, the Cholas, the Mongols, the Gupta's, the Assyrians, the Ottomans, the Pandayans, the Mughals, the Silla's, the Cartheginians, and yes, those liberal western democracies that brought us the Great War that left 50m dead and that then brought us the Nazi's...and simultaneously lead to the Soviets, Khmer Rouge, Mao....and I've left out a few hundred more well meaning dynasties that all are the norm of those that know what is best for the rest of us.

I do not respect anyone's vision of democracy; or unity....I respect the contract that posterity handed us; the Constitution that our politicians swore to serve and protect; it is the contract we are supposed to live by...the Constitution says the states and the people get to decide just about everything. Respect that and you respect me and the rest of the citizenry. That is our unity....that is our principle....and until recently was our reality. Think you know better than the Constitution what gov't should do; that you should decide my doctor, that you should decide what type of weapon I am allowed, that you should decide who I can associate with, who my neighbors should be...and on and on and on...then we are at odds. If you want to change the Contract; then fine; amend it. There is a procedure for that. That is our common principle; that is our unity and that is how you respect a fellow citizen. That is gov't by the people; a gov't kept within boundaries...limited, restrained and in fear of the people.

[icanthearyou 4,462]

DK, Obama himself that his goal was to destroy private health care

Also, being governed by the elites frightens the hell out of me. Can you imagine being governed by some the self anointed elites on this board?

Read any of the following... "1984", "Catch 22", "Fahrenheit 451", "Anthem", "Atlas Shrugged" etc...or the new versions that seem to be opening the eyes of some of the youth "Hunger Games", "Divergent" series...or, just read a good history book on the history of humankind....so yes, I can imagine it...for some here that appear to lazy to actually read and comprehend history, try the History Channel...or better yet just ask anyone who survived the Holocaust, Hitler in General, Stalin, Brezhnev, Pol Pot, ...or ask a veteran who was there when they liberated the death camps...my father described it to me in grizzly, living color detail...it never left his mind...some here seem to think because it is Americans wanting to take your liberty; it will be OK...how ludicrous. Gov't must be restrained....Gov'ts take, plunder, usurp and ultimately wield the power of life and death....

So, we should undermine government simply to restrain government? We should heed the words of works of fiction as the absolute and inevitable outcome of our government. Golly gee whiz, you take the worst governments, run by the most vicious tyrants in history, mix in a little political, futuristic, post-apocalyptic fiction and, we are all suppose to be scared to death of government? This is what should drive us? This amalgamation of the worst of history and fiction is the basis of rational thought? Should this "threat" really be the foundation of our political thinking? Is that reality? Honestly, does that sound sane and lucid?

I think it makes a lot more sense to just go back to being a "government of the people". Why don't we go back to thinking for ourselves rather than believing in the silliness of self-serving ideologues? Why not vote for people with honor, integrity, honesty, and a desire to serve the greater good rather than, self serving liars and thieves who seek to exploit public service for the personal gains of power and wealth?

Why not go back to respecting democracy and one another? Why not try compromise rather than digging in on positions based on the rhetoric and narratives of disingenuous ideologues and corrupt politicians.

Perhaps the true lesson from history is more about the danger people who were willing to trade their common principles for the irrational fears, and unrealistic promises promoted by the rhetoric of dishonest, devious ideologues.

Our demons are not found in the worst tyrants the world has ever seen. They are not in post-apocalyptic fiction and, certainly not in some twisted combination. They do not even reside in the boogeyman of "big government". They lie in our willingness to put aside principles and reality in favor of fear and rhetorical nonsense, our willingness to be divided by that fear and nonsense. This is what happens when you are willing to substitute entertainment and rhetoric for real knowledge and genuine principle.

We need to appreciate our unity, our democracy, and respect one another before it is too late.

You don't undermine gov't by restraining it...you make it focus and accomplish something; you make it serve the people...not the other way around. Gov't is supposed to serve; not be served. Priorities and limiting scope and requiring focus are the nature of success. You cannot try to do everything for everyone and expect to do anything well for anyone. And yes, just look to the writings of those that created the nation; a bloated distant government with capricious and unlimited power; the power of life and death; is antithetical to freedom. They knew this first hand....The nature of gov't is to expand and control everything... until it is either restrained or overthrown from without or within. Our founders overthrew from within; and created a limited and restrained gov't; by contract no less....and that is about as lucid and sane as you can get.

The fictions of the last 200 years did not come out of thin air. They came out of the experiences of history and particularly the norm for that period. They come out of our own history. They are not an exaggeration or a caricature; they are history..they are the very nature of "human nature". The history of civilizations comes with those that want to lord over others. Whether it be the Greeks, the Persians, the Romans, the Byzantines, the Babylonians, the Egyptians, the Hittites, the Islamic 500 year "golden age", the Khmer, the Mayans, the Incas, the Cholas, the Mongols, the Gupta's, the Assyrians, the Ottomans, the Pandayans, the Mughals, the Silla's, the Cartheginians, and yes, those liberal western democracies that brought us the Great War that left 50m dead and that then brought us the Nazi's...and simultaneously lead to the Soviets, Khmer Rouge, Mao....and I've left out a few hundred more well meaning dynasties that all are the norm of those that know what is best for the rest of us.

I do not respect anyone's vision of democracy; or unity....I respect the contract that posterity handed us; the Constitution that our politicians swore to serve and protect; it is the contract we are supposed to live by...the Constitution says the states and the people get to decide just about everything. Respect that and you respect me and the rest of the citizenry. That is our unity....that is our principle....and until recently was our reality. Think you know better than the Constitution what gov't should do; that you should decide my doctor, that you should decide what type of weapon I am allowed, that you should decide who I can associate with, who my neighbors should be...and on and on and on...then we are at odds. If you want to change the Contract; then fine; amend it. There is a procedure for that. That is our common principle; that is our unity and that is how you respect a fellow citizen. That is gov't by the people; a gov't kept within boundaries...limited, restrained and in fear of the people.

Again, you have stated your fear of government. You have stated the basis of that fear.

I find it laughable and absolutely absurd to live under such fear based on reading a book about the Khmer Rouge and genocide in Cambodia then, watching Star Trek II, Wrath of Khan, then projecting the combination of those two experiences onto the future of the United States government.

If you wish to believe that sort of thing, if you believe that it represents education and critical thinking, by all means, go right ahead. I think it is insane and illogical.

[icanthearyou 4,462]

The longer it goes like this the less I feel we will turn it around. I see bright spots here and there but to be totally honest it will take a very strong person in leadership to put their head down and drive through this mess and rally the people at the same time. A simple statement I know, but one I believe is needed.

I think (not totally sure, the word "ungovernable" threw me off) that gets to the heart of what DKW is alluding to in the OP. We are suppose to be the government. If we need someone to restore the sense of who we are, we are already in deep.

DKW, clarification?

Very good point...we do not live to be governed...the government is supposed to serve us...not lord over us.

According to the elites, you won't make the correct decisions if left to your own devices. You need them to run your life for you.

Where did you hear this? Who are the "elites" saying this?

I "believe" that the day government has the power to control your healthcare is the day they have power over us all. It may not be in your face....but it will control you. My opinion.

If you believe government has some devious motive that wants to "control your healthcare" then, I do not believe I can convince you of anything. I think it is more likely that special interests within healthcare wish to use the government to make more money, to further their own interests. Is that not the ultimate outcome of Medicare Part D, ACA?

In reality, I think those same interests would promote an irrational fear of government if they believed the government might take action that would promote the interests of all of society ahead of their interests.

In all honesty, what sounds more logical?

Government has the power to regulate and prevent specialized, consolidated, capital intensive, markets that represent "a necessity" to each of us from becoming monopolistic by dominance or collusion at the expense of society.

No, government has not always wielded that power perfectly but, neither has government wielded it imperfectly either.

To destroy the ability of the government to do good by assuming that it can do no good, seems highly illogical. Perhaps we should limit government, not necessarily and indiscriminately, based on size and scope but rather, by whether or not it is truly the government of the people working on behalf of the people within the framework of democracy.

I do not believe the problem is necessarily inherent in government. I believe the problem lies in the immense power of the parties over us, and the government and, in the reality that they will do anything for money or, more power that they can trade for more money.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

DK, Obama himself that his goal was to destroy private health care

Also, being governed by the elites frightens the hell out of me. Can you imagine being governed by some the self anointed elites on this board?

Read any of the following... "1984", "Catch 22", "Fahrenheit 451", "Anthem", "Atlas Shrugged" etc...or the new versions that seem to be opening the eyes of some of the youth "Hunger Games", "Divergent" series...or, just read a good history book on the history of humankind....so yes, I can imagine it...for some here that appear to lazy to actually read and comprehend history, try the History Channel...or better yet just ask anyone who survived the Holocaust, Hitler in General, Stalin, Brezhnev, Pol Pot, ...or ask a veteran who was there when they liberated the death camps...my father described it to me in grizzly, living color detail...it never left his mind...some here seem to think because it is Americans wanting to take your liberty; it will be OK...how ludicrous. Gov't must be restrained....Gov'ts take, plunder, usurp and ultimately wield the power of life and death....

So, we should undermine government simply to restrain government? We should heed the words of works of fiction as the absolute and inevitable outcome of our government. Golly gee whiz, you take the worst governments, run by the most vicious tyrants in history, mix in a little political, futuristic, post-apocalyptic fiction and, we are all suppose to be scared to death of government? This is what should drive us? This amalgamation of the worst of history and fiction is the basis of rational thought? Should this "threat" really be the foundation of our political thinking? Is that reality? Honestly, does that sound sane and lucid?

I think it makes a lot more sense to just go back to being a "government of the people". Why don't we go back to thinking for ourselves rather than believing in the silliness of self-serving ideologues? Why not vote for people with honor, integrity, honesty, and a desire to serve the greater good rather than, self serving liars and thieves who seek to exploit public service for the personal gains of power and wealth?

Why not go back to respecting democracy and one another? Why not try compromise rather than digging in on positions based on the rhetoric and narratives of disingenuous ideologues and corrupt politicians.

Perhaps the true lesson from history is more about the danger people who were willing to trade their common principles for the irrational fears, and unrealistic promises promoted by the rhetoric of dishonest, devious ideologues.

Our demons are not found in the worst tyrants the world has ever seen. They are not in post-apocalyptic fiction and, certainly not in some twisted combination. They do not even reside in the boogeyman of "big government". They lie in our willingness to put aside principles and reality in favor of fear and rhetorical nonsense, our willingness to be divided by that fear and nonsense. This is what happens when you are willing to substitute entertainment and rhetoric for real knowledge and genuine principle.

We need to appreciate our unity, our democracy, and respect one another before it is too late.

You don't undermine gov't by restraining it...you make it focus and accomplish something; you make it serve the people...not the other way around. Gov't is supposed to serve; not be served. Priorities and limiting scope and requiring focus are the nature of success. You cannot try to do everything for everyone and expect to do anything well for anyone. And yes, just look to the writings of those that created the nation; a bloated distant government with capricious and unlimited power; the power of life and death; is antithetical to freedom. They knew this first hand....The nature of gov't is to expand and control everything... until it is either restrained or overthrown from without or within. Our founders overthrew from within; and created a limited and restrained gov't; by contract no less....and that is about as lucid and sane as you can get.

The fictions of the last 200 years did not come out of thin air. They came out of the experiences of history and particularly the norm for that period. They come out of our own history. They are not an exaggeration or a caricature; they are history..they are the very nature of "human nature". The history of civilizations comes with those that want to lord over others. Whether it be the Greeks, the Persians, the Romans, the Byzantines, the Babylonians, the Egyptians, the Hittites, the Islamic 500 year "golden age", the Khmer, the Mayans, the Incas, the Cholas, the Mongols, the Gupta's, the Assyrians, the Ottomans, the Pandayans, the Mughals, the Silla's, the Cartheginians, and yes, those liberal western democracies that brought us the Great War that left 50m dead and that then brought us the Nazi's...and simultaneously lead to the Soviets, Khmer Rouge, Mao....and I've left out a few hundred more well meaning dynasties that all are the norm of those that know what is best for the rest of us.

I do not respect anyone's vision of democracy; or unity....I respect the contract that posterity handed us; the Constitution that our politicians swore to serve and protect; it is the contract we are supposed to live by...the Constitution says the states and the people get to decide just about everything. Respect that and you respect me and the rest of the citizenry. That is our unity....that is our principle....and until recently was our reality. Think you know better than the Constitution what gov't should do; that you should decide my doctor, that you should decide what type of weapon I am allowed, that you should decide who I can associate with, who my neighbors should be...and on and on and on...then we are at odds. If you want to change the Contract; then fine; amend it. There is a procedure for that. That is our common principle; that is our unity and that is how you respect a fellow citizen. That is gov't by the people; a gov't kept within boundaries...limited, restrained and in fear of the people.

Again, you have stated your fear of government. You have stated the basis of that fear.

I find it laughable and absolutely absurd to live under such fear based on reading a book about the Khmer Rouge and genocide in Cambodia then, watching Star Trek II, Wrath of Khan, then projecting the combination of those two experiences onto the future of the United States government.

If you wish to believe that sort of thing, if you believe that it represents education and critical thinking, by all means, go right ahead. I think it is insane and illogical.

That's not a very civil response.

[japantiger 4,051]

The Constitution is based on fear of government. It was created to specifically to limit the federal gov't from what it could do to the citizenry. It goes out of it's way to prevent bureaucrat loons and officials from being able to amass the power and without judicial process arrest, search, limit speech, take property, etc...all the things that the English authority did do....you have read it haven't you? From your commentary, I can only assume you were part of the education system after Civics was removed from the curriculum. If you find the constitution and the circumstances of its creation insane or irrational, that tells me all I need to know.

Your references to a book about the Khmer and Wrath of Khan are nonsensical.

I get it that you think US bureaucrats are somehow infused with a special sauce that makes them immune to human nature because, well, their American. I can assure you they are not.

[icanthearyou 4,462]

DK, Obama himself that his goal was to destroy private health care

Also, being governed by the elites frightens the hell out of me. Can you imagine being governed by some the self anointed elites on this board?

Read any of the following... "1984", "Catch 22", "Fahrenheit 451", "Anthem", "Atlas Shrugged" etc...or the new versions that seem to be opening the eyes of some of the youth "Hunger Games", "Divergent" series...or, just read a good history book on the history of humankind....so yes, I can imagine it...for some here that appear to lazy to actually read and comprehend history, try the History Channel...or better yet just ask anyone who survived the Holocaust, Hitler in General, Stalin, Brezhnev, Pol Pot, ...or ask a veteran who was there when they liberated the death camps...my father described it to me in grizzly, living color detail...it never left his mind...some here seem to think because it is Americans wanting to take your liberty; it will be OK...how ludicrous. Gov't must be restrained....Gov'ts take, plunder, usurp and ultimately wield the power of life and death....

So, we should undermine government simply to restrain government? We should heed the words of works of fiction as the absolute and inevitable outcome of our government. Golly gee whiz, you take the worst governments, run by the most vicious tyrants in history, mix in a little political, futuristic, post-apocalyptic fiction and, we are all suppose to be scared to death of government? This is what should drive us? This amalgamation of the worst of history and fiction is the basis of rational thought? Should this "threat" really be the foundation of our political thinking? Is that reality? Honestly, does that sound sane and lucid?

I think it makes a lot more sense to just go back to being a "government of the people". Why don't we go back to thinking for ourselves rather than believing in the silliness of self-serving ideologues? Why not vote for people with honor, integrity, honesty, and a desire to serve the greater good rather than, self serving liars and thieves who seek to exploit public service for the personal gains of power and wealth?

Why not go back to respecting democracy and one another? Why not try compromise rather than digging in on positions based on the rhetoric and narratives of disingenuous ideologues and corrupt politicians.

Perhaps the true lesson from history is more about the danger people who were willing to trade their common principles for the irrational fears, and unrealistic promises promoted by the rhetoric of dishonest, devious ideologues.

Our demons are not found in the worst tyrants the world has ever seen. They are not in post-apocalyptic fiction and, certainly not in some twisted combination. They do not even reside in the boogeyman of "big government". They lie in our willingness to put aside principles and reality in favor of fear and rhetorical nonsense, our willingness to be divided by that fear and nonsense. This is what happens when you are willing to substitute entertainment and rhetoric for real knowledge and genuine principle.

We need to appreciate our unity, our democracy, and respect one another before it is too late.

You don't undermine gov't by restraining it...you make it focus and accomplish something; you make it serve the people...not the other way around. Gov't is supposed to serve; not be served. Priorities and limiting scope and requiring focus are the nature of success. You cannot try to do everything for everyone and expect to do anything well for anyone. And yes, just look to the writings of those that created the nation; a bloated distant government with capricious and unlimited power; the power of life and death; is antithetical to freedom. They knew this first hand....The nature of gov't is to expand and control everything... until it is either restrained or overthrown from without or within. Our founders overthrew from within; and created a limited and restrained gov't; by contract no less....and that is about as lucid and sane as you can get.

The fictions of the last 200 years did not come out of thin air. They came out of the experiences of history and particularly the norm for that period. They come out of our own history. They are not an exaggeration or a caricature; they are history..they are the very nature of "human nature". The history of civilizations comes with those that want to lord over others. Whether it be the Greeks, the Persians, the Romans, the Byzantines, the Babylonians, the Egyptians, the Hittites, the Islamic 500 year "golden age", the Khmer, the Mayans, the Incas, the Cholas, the Mongols, the Gupta's, the Assyrians, the Ottomans, the Pandayans, the Mughals, the Silla's, the Cartheginians, and yes, those liberal western democracies that brought us the Great War that left 50m dead and that then brought us the Nazi's...and simultaneously lead to the Soviets, Khmer Rouge, Mao....and I've left out a few hundred more well meaning dynasties that all are the norm of those that know what is best for the rest of us.

I do not respect anyone's vision of democracy; or unity....I respect the contract that posterity handed us; the Constitution that our politicians swore to serve and protect; it is the contract we are supposed to live by...the Constitution says the states and the people get to decide just about everything. Respect that and you respect me and the rest of the citizenry. That is our unity....that is our principle....and until recently was our reality. Think you know better than the Constitution what gov't should do; that you should decide my doctor, that you should decide what type of weapon I am allowed, that you should decide who I can associate with, who my neighbors should be...and on and on and on...then we are at odds. If you want to change the Contract; then fine; amend it. There is a procedure for that. That is our common principle; that is our unity and that is how you respect a fellow citizen. That is gov't by the people; a gov't kept within boundaries...limited, restrained and in fear of the people.

Again, you have stated your fear of government. You have stated the basis of that fear.

I find it laughable and absolutely absurd to live under such fear based on reading a book about the Khmer Rouge and genocide in Cambodia then, watching Star Trek II, Wrath of Khan, then projecting the combination of those two experiences onto the future of the United States government.

If you wish to believe that sort of thing, if you believe that it represents education and critical thinking, by all means, go right ahead. I think it is insane and illogical.

That's not a very civil response.

How so? It is blunt but still civil, IMO. One thing I appreciate about debating JapanTiger or Raptor, they are big boys and take as well as they give. No grudges. Tomorrow is a new day. We just have differing views. No one has to hold back for fear of damaging the other's psyche.

[icanthearyou 4,462]

The Constitution is based on fear of government. It was created to specifically to limit the federal gov't from what it could do to the citizenry. It goes out of it's way to prevent bureaucrat loons and officials from being able to amass the power and without judicial process arrest, search, limit speech, take property, etc...all the things that the English authority did do....you have read it haven't you? From your commentary, I can only assume you were part of the education system after Civics was removed from the curriculum. If you find the constitution and the circumstances of its creation insane or irrational, that tells me all I need to know.

Your references to a book about the Khmer and Wrath of Khan are nonsensical.

I get it that you think US bureaucrats are somehow infused with a special sauce that makes them immune to human nature because, well, their American. I can assure you they are not.

I would not say the Constitution is "based on the fear of government". I would say it is based on, protecting the rights of the individual from the power of government and, the principle that the people are the government. They did not teach irrational fear as founding principle in any of schools I attended.

Of course it is nonsensical. That was exactly the point.

I have never said or thought anything of the sort. Not going to one extreme does not mean you embrace the other extreme. Nice try but, that is not much of a tactic.

[DKW 86 7,418]

The Elitist Oilgarchy have ideas that they know what we as the unwashed middle class need to be "governed" because we are too stupid to be left to govern ourselves.

ichy joined the TEA Party? Wow. Mind is officially blown.

[cooltigger21 0]

The Constitution is based on fear of government. It was created to specifically to limit the federal gov't from what it could do to the citizenry. It goes out of it's way to prevent bureaucrat loons and officials from being able to amass the power and without judicial process arrest, search, limit speech, take property, etc...all the things that the English authority did do....you have read it haven't you? From your commentary, I can only assume you were part of the education system after Civics was removed from the curriculum. If you find the constitution and the circumstances of its creation insane or irrational, that tells me all I need to know.

Your references to a book about the Khmer and Wrath of Khan are nonsensical.

I get it that you think US bureaucrats are somehow infused with a special sauce that makes them immune to human nature because, well, their American. I can assure you they are not.

We are faced with this every day. The EPA and IRS are two that come to mind immediately. Power is addictive and if left unchecked it gets worse. We are now a nation governed by unelected bureaucrats and not our elected representatives.

[DKW 86 7,418]

The Constitution is based on fear of government. It was created to specifically to limit the federal gov't from what it could do to the citizenry. It goes out of it's way to prevent bureaucrat loons and officials from being able to amass the power and without judicial process arrest, search, limit speech, take property, etc...all the things that the English authority did do....you have read it haven't you? From your commentary, I can only assume you were part of the education system after Civics was removed from the curriculum. If you find the constitution and the circumstances of its creation insane or irrational, that tells me all I need to know.

Your references to a book about the Khmer and Wrath of Khan are nonsensical.

I get it that you think US bureaucrats are somehow infused with a special sauce that makes them immune to human nature because, well, their American. I can assure you they are not.

We are faced with this every day. The EPA and IRS are two that come to mind immediately. Power is addictive and if left unchecked it gets worse. We are now a nation governed by unelected bureaucrats and not our elected representatives.

The IRS breaks the laws, Nothing happens.

The VA runs all over the vets. Nothing happens.

The Secret Service runs all over a congressman. Nothing happens.

Anyone see a trend here?