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Serious question about Garner


Auburn4Winners

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Face it... we made the glaring mistake of hanging our hat on 2 players... Lawson and Adams.

We didn't "hang our hat on them." We just didn't get enough other players. It wasn't for a lack of trying, but we swung and missed on some recruits, had others like Elijah Daniel get booted or leave, and some didn't pan out. But it's not accurate to call it a "mistake" as if we got Adams and Lawson and called it a day.

I wasn't referring to recruiting, I was referring to getting the team ready. It's obvious that Lawson and Adams were tearing it up in practice and we didn't prepare replacements for them if one was lost. I also pointed out that it has to be hard to see deficiencies in the play of anyone on the line, when you have 2 guys who are good enough to make the rest look better than they are. Lawson and Adams, together, are good enough to raise the level of play of the others, just because they become distractions to the opponent, allowing other players to break free. Since a line plays as a unit instead of as individuals, one component can make all the difference, but it's hard to see that until that component isn't there.

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2010 line was pretty damn good. Nobody ran on us. Imo problem is we don't go after elite athletes on d line and once we get the ones we can we put too much weight on them and try to make them d tackles..

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Face it... we made the glaring mistake of hanging our hat on 2 players... Lawson and Adams. Both are everything they were cracked up to be, but you can't have a dominant D-line with just one star. All the other team has to do is double him. If Lawson wasn't hurt, not one would be saying a single negative thing about Garner, because we'd be living in our opponents backfield and probably only have 1 loss.

I don't know how people can think a coach who has dominated for years can somehow forget how to coach. If you want to dig for a negative, you could say that he didn't notice how lacking we were elsewhere (which may be poor talent evaluation, or may be that they didn't have to work so hard with Carl and Monty killing it every play), but face it, when you have an unstoppable tandem, it's a lot harder to see the faults around them.

Are you saying that Garner's lines have dominated for years?

I'm say Garner's been a quality, respected D-Line coach for years.

When is the last time we had a dominate line?

2004

2008 was pretty good too, but it's hard to tell because of the offensive debacle.

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Face it... we made the glaring mistake of hanging our hat on 2 players... Lawson and Adams. Both are everything they were cracked up to be, but you can't have a dominant D-line with just one star. All the other team has to do is double him. If Lawson wasn't hurt, not one would be saying a single negative thing about Garner, because we'd be living in our opponents backfield and probably only have 1 loss.

I don't know how people can think a coach who has dominated for years can somehow forget how to coach. If you want to dig for a negative, you could say that he didn't notice how lacking we were elsewhere (which may be poor talent evaluation, or may be that they didn't have to work so hard with Carl and Monty killing it every play), but face it, when you have an unstoppable tandem, it's a lot harder to see the faults around them.

I don't think that was a glaring mistake. We put faith in two guy on the defensive line for the play of the defensive line? That's usually what teams do. They hype up their big time players. We've got two of them, and if the other was out there, the line would be exponentially better. You can't tell me for one second that we wouldn't have one of the best D lines in the conference if Lawson had been healthy and playing all along. Lawson is a season changer, he gives motivation/leadership/drive to other linemen, we saw that in the first half of the Louisville game. If we get 55 back, we get the season back.

Edit: I know one player does not make an entire team, but I do believe one player can have more of an effect on a team than any given average player. (I.e. Cameron Newton). The evidence we've received is this- when Lawson has been on the field for any part of the game, Auburn is 13-2. When Carl Lawson has been absent from the entire game, Auburn is 11-8. Is he the best player in history? Probably not, but he is the most important piece to a successful 2015 Auburn Football Season, period.

I think you misinterpreted what I said, because I'm basically saying the same thing you are. The mistake was not that we expected Lawson to be amazing and we're going to take full advantage of it... it was that we didn't prepare a back-up plan in case he wasn't there. Maybe we did run the D without him in practice and see the issues and who needed more work, but I have trouble believing we did.

You're correct, if we had the D-line that they were preparing, with Lawson and Adams both 100%, this conversation wouldn't be happening because we'd have one of, if not the best D-lines in the country.

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2010 line was pretty damn good. Nobody ran on us. Imo problem is we don't go after elite athletes on d line and once we get the ones we can we put too much weight on them and try to make them d tackles..

Good, yes, but far from dominant. My stress level would have been much better that year if they were dominant.

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we saw that in the first half of the Louisville game.

What we saw in the first half of the Louisville game was an okay defensive line going against the least experienced offensive line in the ACC and maybe the country- they seriously only had like 10-20 starts between them and at least 2 true freshmen- and an immobile quarterback. We were still living in their backfield in the 2nd half, but they switched QBs and the new kid was far more mobile. Everybody was freaking out that we couldn't tackle the kid because we kept getting in the backfield. Lawson is undoubtedly a rare football player, but we have got to dial back this idea that he's the difference between a good defense and a bad one. He'd be the difference between a bad one and a not as bad one or a good one and a really good one, maybe. Even Nick Fairley didn't make the 2010 defense "good", and he turned in one of the best single seasons a DL has had in a decade.

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2010 line was pretty damn good. Nobody ran on us. Imo problem is we don't go after elite athletes on d line and once we get the ones we can we put too much weight on them and try to make them d tackles..

Good, yes, but far from dominant. My stress level would have been much better that year if they were dominant.

I felt like they were dominant by the end of the season. Secondary was the problem that year. They damn sure was dominant the title game

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2010 line was pretty damn good. Nobody ran on us. Imo problem is we don't go after elite athletes on d line and once we get the ones we can we put too much weight on them and try to make them d tackles..

Good, yes, but far from dominant. My stress level would have been much better that year if they were dominant.

I felt like they were dominant by the end of the season. Secondary was the problem that year. They damn sure was dominant the title game

How many pounds did we have on Oregon? :) No doubt we had a stout run D in 2010, but we didn't get pressure like we have been able to back in the Tubbs era.

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Totally agree, but take Nick off that 2010 line and how do you think that season would have gone?

About like last year when we took Robinson off the O-Line from 2013. You see the similarities, but they just don't have the "it" they had when X player was there.

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Totally agree, but take Nick off that 2010 line and how do you think that season would have gone?

The D would've been maybe slightly better than either of the CEJ defenses IMO. NF was the only threat on that D to do anything and Bynes was the 2nd best player who is better than the LBs we have now

That was the only year since Tubs, along with Dee Ford in 2013, that we got any pass rush whatsoever.

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Totally agree, but take Nick off that 2010 line and how do you think that season would have gone?

We wouldn't have been undefeated, that's for sure. He certainly made that defense a lot better. Definition of a game changer. They were ranked 87th in total defense, though.

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I think Muschamp was right to retain Garner at the beginning of the season, and I think Muschamp will have an important decision at the end of the season on whether Garner should stay or go.

Perhaps we should question Strength and Conditioning if player execution is the issue. When is the last time you saw a big,scary, imposing linebacker at Auburn?

We as fans just don't have enough information to go on in my opinion, but I believe our staff with have the right answers come end of the year.

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I don't know what Muschamp's view is of Garner. I believe D-Line would have been better with Lawson but I don't really know how good Lawson is. He dominated against Louisville but so did all the D-Linemen even after he was gone they lived in the backfield. LB's were responsible for not stopping the running QB not the D-Line. Would Lawson have dominated against LSU with their big fullback and Fournette I don't know. Everybody has declared Lawson is superman without enough play on the field to prove it. I am not knocking Lawson I think he has the potential to be great but I don't call people great based on potential but by sustained on the field performance.

So rather then take a position on Garner I will put out another question.

If Muschamp does decide to replace Garner who do you think he can get that would be a major improvement? I am not asking who you want him to get but who you think he could get?

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I'm with you. I've been wondering since the JSU game, if we should hire a new Strength and Conditioning coach. Our players on both sides of the ball look totally gassed and way out of shape by the 3rd quarter. As for Rodney Garner, I coach Muschamp will bring in a new DL coach. Coach Malzahn needs to make some changes on the offense. A new OL coach and a new OC. I'd love to see coach Craig be named OC/QB coach and then hire a top WR coach. And no, he doesn't have to be a former Auburn player.

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When facing mobile qbs Muschamp has created a passive rush by the front four. They're clearly not trying to get pressure but instead are forcing the qb to throw. The Mississippi State game is a great example and even a few years ago it's what we did to Manziel.

I don't know of any pass defense scheme that is content not to put pressure on the quarterback. Not even when Vick was in his prime. The primary consideration with a highly mobile QB is to make sure the rush lanes and pursuit depths are maintained, much the same as punt and kickoff coverages. At one point late in the Arkansas game the hogs ran an incredibly well executed middle screen and all four of our down linemen were totally committed to the jailbreak. Even in high school there is a lineman assigned to that middle screen. That's on Garner. Our issues up front are either on Garner or Ryan Russell. I'm not sure it's not both.

Johnny Manziel still has nightmares involving Dee Ford....

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People forget how good Clayton was

he was good enough to keep double teams off fairley.

He was a great run stopper. He held his point and tackled guys with one hand many times

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Totally agree, but take Nick off that 2010 line and how do you think that season would have gone?

That's a terrible argument. Put Lawson back on the line last year and this year, and we probably aren't having this conversation.

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And I'm undecided about Garner. I think I'm going to trust Muschamp with the decision at the end of the year and be happy with it.

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I'm with you. I've been wondering since the JSU game, if we should hire a new Strength and Conditioning coach. Our players on both sides of the ball look totally gassed and way out of shape by the 3rd quarter. As for Rodney Garner, I coach Muschamp will bring in a new DL coach. Coach Malzahn needs to make some changes on the offense. A new OL coach and a new OC. I'd love to see coach Craig be named OC/QB coach and then hire a top WR coach. And no, he doesn't have to be a former Auburn player.

So fire the Oline coach, who's had stellar lines up until this year and the one this year is improving?

Fire the OC who's had fantastic offenses all but this year, and this year is improving? Replace him with the main guy who's position is one of the worst groups of contributing players I have ever witnessed in my life? Not sure I've ever disagreed with one post on so many levels.

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