Two things are clear

[Boss 0]

After reading articles about the Logan Young trial for the past few days, two things are very clear:

Lynn Lang is a pathological liar, a lowdown, scumbag coach wannabe who took advantage of a naive 17 year old. The prosecuters got this one backwards....they should have given Logan Young immunity for testifying against Lang. Lang should get life in prison for selling Means!

On the other hand, the trial has shown Young for what he has been accused of for years...a drunken braggart who got his money the hard way (he inherited it), and who has been buying players for bama since the "bahr" era. One thing is for sure, the trial, in a way, has vindicated the NCAA (and thats very hard for me to say) for its investigation and punishment of Alabama.

[Guest Tigrinum Major]

After reading articles about the Logan Young trial for the past few days, two things are very clear:

Lynn Lang is a pathological liar, a lowdown, scumbag coach wannabe who took advantage of a naive 17 year old. The prosecuters got this one backwards....they should have given Logan Young immunity for testifying against Lang. Land should get life in prison for selling Means!

On the other hand, the trial has shown Young for what he has been accused of for years...a drunken braggart who got his money the hard way (he inherited it), and who has been buying players for bama since the "bahr" era. One thing is for sure, the trial, in a way, has vindicated the NCAA (and thats very hard for me to say) for its investigation and punishment of Alabama.

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One more thing is clear: Roy Adams, aka TennStud, is cut from the same cloth as Logan Young.

[AUloggerhead 1,828]

After reading articles about the Logan Young trial for the past few days, two things are very clear:

Lynn Lang is a pathological liar, a lowdown, scumbag coach wannabe who took advantage of a naive 17 year old. The prosecuters got this one backwards....they should have given Logan Young immunity for testifying against Lang. Land should get life in prison for selling Means!

On the other hand, the trial has shown Young for what he has been accused of for years...a drunken braggart who got his money the hard way (he inherited it), and who has been buying players for bama since the "bahr" era. One thing is for sure, the trial, in a way, has vindicated the NCAA (and thats very hard for me to say) for its investigation and punishment of Alabama.

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Pretty much agree with everything you've said. Not sure why they had to establish Logan Young, bammie booster par excellance, was a drunken braggart -- thought that was a given considering who his favorite team is/was. Lynn Lang has already copped a plea with the Feds on his racketeering charge. That's why he's cooperating with testimony at this trial. I'm none too confident of a conviction of LY because of the burden of proof requirement and the prosecution's circumstantial evidence. The only way I see them losing this trial is if his defense team puts him on the witness stand & LY does a COL Jessup routine.

That being said, what is abundantly clear from this trial is that the recruitment of Albert Means by spuat was just the tip of the iceberg. Kindal Moorehead & David Paine and who else? Justin Smiley & his momma getting new pick-up trucks comes to mind. Makes you wonder. Speaking of liars, did anyone catch what former coach & recruiter Ivy Williams said under oath:

... Lang said he was referred to Young by Williams who suggested that Means have someone else take the entrance exam for him.

Means has acknowledged in court that he did not take the exam himself and lied about it to a federal grand jury.

Williams said he helped recruit Means in 1999 and was told he had already taken the exam.

"I was told by coach Lang that the young man was fully qualified," Williams said.

Under prosecution questioning, Williams acknowledged telling the NCAA that while he knew Young, he had talked with him "10 or 12 times at the most."

He also acknowledged telling a grand jury he talked with Young more than 200 times.

Williams said he had dinner with Young in Memphis before Means signed with Alabama but they did not discuss his recruitment.

Link

Right. No mention of Albert Means at dinner before Means signed with the bammies. Got it. That just means he was already in the bag then, huh? It's a digusting situation having to hear about all the sordid spuat recruiting like this but, I suppose it's necessary if we're going to clean up all the corruption. I'll say it again: spuat was damn lucky to get off with the NCAA sanctions levied. It could have (& should have) been much worse.

[Boss 0]

Under prosecution questioning, Williams acknowledged telling the NCAA that while he knew Young, he had talked with him "10 or 12 times at the most."

He also acknowledged telling a grand jury he talked with Young more than 200 times.

Williams said he had dinner with Young in Memphis before Means signed with Alabama but they did not discuss his recruitment.

Wow!!! Looks like Williams is just as big a liar as Lang. The whole crew at UA was corrupt at the time. I wonder if they are going to call Cottrell.........

[RVTiger 0]

Looks like Williams testimony just sent a shotgun blast through Gallions case. Williams wasn't sure what he and Young talked about (except he said it may have been about his sick mama), but he knew what they didn't talk about, recruiting at Alabama. Young may not be guilty in the federal case, but he is guilty of buying players for bama, and has been doing so for years. Everyone knew it, he's boasted about it since the 70's. The NCAA just never could catch him. This time they did, and they punished bama accordingly. It's very apparent that an assistant coach (Williams) knew what was going on.

I'll bet ole Tommy Gallion has drank quite a few scotch and sodas this weekend himself after hearing about Williams testimony and what the damage it has done to his suit against the NCAA.

[PowerI 0]

This proves that bammer has been cheating for years. If they think that Albert Means is the only player that was given money they are kidding themselves. Bammer deserves all it has gotten.

[Boss 0]

This does bring up an interesting point. The Cottrell/Williams case against the NCAA. Will it expose even more indescretions against bama? Williams testimony in the Young case will certainly be brought up by the NCAA. And if I'm a juror, I would have a very hard time believing Williams. Look at it his way, I'm an average AU fan. If I talked to an assistant coach 200 times (as noted by phone records), you can bet your sweet a$$ that 199 times I would talk about football, and very likely about recruiting. Even jurors who were bama fans would have a hard time believing Williams.

[Bama My Heart 5]

This proves that bammer has been cheating for years.  If they think that Albert Means is the only player that was given money they are kidding themselves.  Bammer deserves all it has gotten.

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I really do not understand all this anger towards Bama. We have taken our punishment and just want to move on with life, and some of you guys keep bringing up that we cheated, and go on and on and on. I don't know for a fact exactly what went on and neither do you. We pleaded guilty and took the punishment, and that should be enought said. The university is not involved in any law suits at this time. This case is against Logan Young and the others this summer are ones that these coaches are doing...........nothing or anyone is being taken to court by the university.

With that said, I must ask. When did Auburn get to be such saints? Was it that long ago that you were on probation yourselves? Seems like it was very serious because you lost TV rights that year, and money was involved, and it was also done by one of your coaches..."keep it down home cuz". So you've been there yourself where someone ruined the program for the whole school, so please don't act like Bama has done something by being on probation that has not happened to almost every school in the SEC. I seriously hope that all of us(all 12 schools) have programs in place right now that will mean that none of our teams are on probation again. It ruins it for all of us when it hits any of us. When Auburn was on probation, the iron bowl for the first time in a long time was not on tv, and that

was bad for us too. This past 2 years with Bama on probation, even if you may have thought it was funny, and our teams were so bad. This did not help your program when you beat us, because what did you beat ---a team on probation. I remember being at an Auburn/Ga game right after Auburn was on probation, and them throwing money at your fans, and making fun of the probation. So at the time they sort of considered you guys a laughing stock, and it didn't feel too great...right? Please just remember, we've all been there, and the serious fans never want to be there again, and just don't act like you haven't been on the hot seat yourself. You have a clean program right now, and so do we.

[AUesquire 1]

BMH, I think Jim Donnan brought out a good point after his testimony when he basically admitted that there were numerous SEC schools, not just UT, that offered up evidence against LY and Alabama to the NCAA.

In a nutshell, I think it's a given that everyone cheats to a certain extent. I'm not exactly going out on a limb there. Now, having said that and as hipocritical as this is going to sound, I think these schools had finally had their fill of the lengths to which LY was going to get these recruits. The cars and $100.00 handshakes have been going on forever. Paying $150K for a player has not. Many of the schools purported to have ratted UA out were those that recruit the Memphis area regularly such as Ole Miss, UT and Arkansas. All these schools were losing out on players like Means and Payne and LY was the one openly bragging about it.

While I am no fan of the NCAA by any stretch, I think the "conspiracy" theory is certainly not limited to them and Philip Fulmer. Apparently, it involves numerous schools that wanted LY and Alabama off of their turf. The price for Means was huge and there were several schools willing to bid or inquire but none that were willing to play the game at such high stakes.

[WarTim 3,293]

The N C A A has proven to be 100% correct and was more than justified in slapping uat's wrist.

They should have gotten the DEATH penalty, but, It is much more fun watchin' the 4-9 and 6-6 seasons, not to mention the "more of the same" seasons that will follow!

[DKW 86 6,928]

The really telling quote from the ESPN interview with Donnan was this: "Alabama got caught doing 70 in a 55 mph zone."

The inference that there is cheating, IE "55 mph zone." What He is saying, PLAINLY in my book, is there was cheating going on.

The reference to 70 mph is that 1) was breaking the "rules of cheating." 2) It was "wreckless doing that." They were flagging the whole as being looked at by this scam.

, , , and others were seeing this too. Remember that Spurrier at mailed Dubose about it as well. Nutt went overboard and used some REAL HUTZPAH (testicles) turning in after going almost as bad as was into it.

Conclusion: broke the "Gentleman's Agreement" and paid the price for it.

Did they learn anything from all this? After five years of this crap all you have to do is turn on the PF Show and listen to the "Blame Fat Phil Network."

I am sorry to report that I do not think that has hardly learned a thing from any of this and I would anticipate them returning back to "Dubosian Form" anytime now.

[BamaGrad03 146]

David...there isnt anything that could possibly come out of all this that would change your mind anyway. Not even the fact that LL and MK have already been totally been discredited. You believed everything he said because you WANTED to. Your hate for Alabama is so great...that you would rather UT get away clean, inspite of MUCH more damning black and white evidence against them...as long as Bama got hammered in the process. That, to me, is an extreme double standard.

You said yourself that Logan Young is guilty...even if he is found innocent. Why? because you hate bama. There is no more smoke around LY than there is around Roy Adams, Jimmy Rane, Bobby Lowder..etc. But you hate bama...you dont hate UT. You dont care that UGA gave money. (Yeah, your boy LL said they did). As long as bama gets punished for it.

BTW, spurrier wrote dubose about the smiley recruitment. Which was proven clean.

[WarTim 3,293]

You are right. uat has a long and storied "tradishun" of cheatin & lyin'.

It will not end.

[JacksonJ 0]

BMH, you are right in that AU was put on probation due to at least one of our coaches giving a player money. Yes it is bad being on probation.

That said let me tell you what I 'think'. I 'think' that every school cheats to the extent of giving players money, but most are never caught. I 'know ' that Ole Miss bought a car for a recruit from my high school.

These $100 handshakes go on everywhere and so what. Most of these kids don't have much and it helps, maybe not completely legal, but I don't think it is a terrible thing.

Now let's compare AUs probation from the 90's with UA today.

At AU you had a player going to coaches and other supporters telling them that he could not feed his wife and little girl because he had no money. On the tapes he basically begs for the money, while secretly recording the conversation. He goes pro, doesn't make it and comes back looking for hush money from the staff. They tell him to bugger off and he goes public.

At Alabama you had coaches and supporters dealing with a high school coach to tell a player to go to Alabama. I think it is apparent from the trial transcripts that money went from LY to LL. LL has pleaded guilty to the charges. LY boasted of the arrangement, but now says it was all made up, yea right.

I think what I am trying to say is that AU got busted for something that I 'know' has been going on at Alabama for years because of a bad apple from within whereas UA gets busted for something much worse.

In this case it's like AU getting jailed for jaywalking while Alabama got busted for armed robbery and then most of the fans are screaming they go ripped a new one. I think UA is lucky with what they got.

[JacksonJ 0]

Bama Grad, I don't hate UA so let me answer your email.

Roy Adams, Jimmy Rane, Bobby Lowder yes there is smoke!

Logan Young is in the middle of a raging forest fire though.

[CrimsonPirate 0]

I am sorry to report that I do not think that has hardly learned a thing from any of this and I would anticipate them returning back to "Dubosian Form" anytime now.

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There is a very important reason that Bama will not return to "Dubosian Form". His name is Mike Shula. Either Dubose was directly involved or chose to look the other way. Mike Shula will do neither. Much to your chagrin.

I consider myself a huge Bama fan but my dislike for Auburn pales in comparison with the hate you guys hold for Bama.

And, why can't you guys spell "tradition" and "Bear?"

[BamaGrad03 146]

JacksonJ...while I appreciate your level headed delivery...i think it may be a bit misguided. Maybe LL DID get money. But they cant prove it came from LY. No one has proven it yet. LY, MK, and TC (the NCAA's 3 biggest sources for testimony) were all deemed worthless and not credible by the Feds. You say Alabama got off light, but the only thing worse would have been the death penalty. You, like many other AU fans, seem to take everything the NCAA said about UA at face value. But you always fail to mention the fact that the ncaa said there was NO LOI and coaches werent involved (either of these would be required for any greater punishement). That means you pick and choose the things you want to fit your argument. Bama gives out the 100 dollar handshakes. Yes every school does it. But the only EVIDENCE of anything worse lies in the testimony of people whom all had something to gain from us getting burned.

[WarTim 3,293]

You (uat) got "burned (got off light)" because you were caught CHEATING.

Anything else said is just lame excuses and the entire College Football WORLD knows it.

Enjoy!

[DKW 86 6,928]

BG, we are all homers here. Homers and Homers. It is no Doubt!

I do not hate at all. Heck I like you very much.

Our/My/The college football world think that you guys have it all wrong here. You want to defend everything that is in fact indefensible. Look, There is not enough proof of OJ's guilt either. His own Mom knows he did it. But he was found not guilty.

I think we all know that SOME cheating goes on in and elsewhere. The only problem is when we try to split hairs with everyone on the details. BG, there is EVIDENCE, Granted Circumstantial, but a load of evidence that LY was guilty of bad stuff going back years, decades even.

PF even says he believes that LY was buying players before. The problem is in the die hards that want to say that ONLY BAMA IS NOT CHEATING!!!!

They were caught with far more evidence than many other schools were put on probation for. I could discuss this forever with anyone. We went on probation for taking some kids home in a storm from the tennis courts!!!! Can anyone PROVE IT HAPPENED........NO! But we went on probation nonetheless. We went on probation for a dinner and a movie ticket!!!! Can anyone PROVE IT HAPPENED........NO! But we went on probation nonetheless.

Will OSU go on probation? I bet they will now. Will UT go on probation? I doubt it. If you want to tell me that the whole sorry episode was the NCAA getting back for the $400K Lawsuit they lost to Jones? I will agree 100% with you!

You guys held yourselves above the law for many years while the rest of us got hit for everything. Hell BG I hope someone can tell you the Don Fuell Story sometime in great nauseating detail. Basically, two Bama assts disguised themselves as Encyclopedia salesmen and got into his home and then reported "Suspicious belongings" to the NCAA.

Many at see this as NOTHING more than Payback, long overdue payback that and got on you guys for recruiting too hard in their backyard.

[DKW 86 6,928]

I am sorry to report that I do not think that has hardly learned a thing from any of this and I would anticipate them returning back to "Dubosian Form" anytime now.

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There is a very important reason that Bama will not return to "Dubosian Form". His name is Mike Shula. Either Dubose was directly involved or chose to look the other way. Mike Shula will do neither. Much to your chagrin.

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My prediction has nothing at all to do with CMS. It has everything to do with Rogue boosters that will skirt the process NO MATTER WHAT...

There are those on the staff with less than stellar records. If you listened to Finebaum you know that CMD's recruiting coordinator is CMS's today....

[tiger88 934]

BG,

Quit you're job, enroll in law school, get your degree, and join the johnny cochran law firm. If you really believe young is innocent you could make a fortune defending the likes of OJ.

[JacksonJ 0]

JacksonJ...while I appreciate your level headed delivery...i think it may be a bit misguided. Maybe LL DID get money. But they cant prove it came from LY. No one has proven it yet. LY, MK, and TC (the NCAA's 3 biggest sources for testimony) were all deemed worthless and not credible by the Feds. You say Alabama got off light, but the only thing worse would have been the death penalty. You, like many other AU fans, seem to take everything the NCAA said about UA at face value. But you always fail to mention the fact that the ncaa said there was NO LOI and coaches werent involved (either of these would be required for any greater punishement). That means you pick and choose the things you want to fit your argument. Bama gives out the 100 dollar handshakes. Yes every school does it. But the only EVIDENCE of anything worse lies in the testimony of people whom all had something to gain from us getting burned.

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BamaGrad, while I have no first hand knowledge of the dealings, the FACT that LY withdrew ~ 214k(in cash) over a short period of time and the FACT that withdrawals by LY and deposits for ~ the same amount in LL account shortly thereafter would to most anyone seem to coincidental. Now throw in the FACT that these deposits of several thousand dollars were being made by a high school coach that probably made 30-40k a year. Then throw in the FACT that LL has pleaded guilty and testified against LY. I know LL is a liar and a cheat, but I think the new vehicle and the cash deposits give him a little credibility in the fact that someone was giving him money.

Now throw in the fact that LY(drunk or not) has bragged he bought and paid for Means.

Nothing worse? How about no TV for a year or two. How about bigger scholarship cuts?

I don't think the NCAA had anything that could be considered solid on the coaches, but the ~100 calls from IW to LY during Means recruitment and the fact IW dealt with LL also would be damning evidence to most people. That is why there was no LOI and it is a good thing for UA there wasn't. You have to remember (right or wrong) the universities are responsible for their supporters not just coaches.

Yes the only people to testify had something to gain from UA getting burned, but would you expect the Tide Nation to testify against themselves? I wouldn't, nor would I expect anybody else to testify against themselves. But, I guess everyone could be out to get UA since they have dominated since the 90's, no wait the 80's no wait I think it was the 70's. Bama isn't the end all of the SEC anymore and I don't believe in conspiracy theories very much.

One last thought, UA admitted guilt and accepted the penalties.

[JacksonJ 0]

Let me add something here BG. I grew up a Bama fan but went to AU and loved it, so I now my allegance goes to AU. But, I still like UA and pull for them except when they play AU. That said I don't have any agenda against UA, but I do get tired of hearing how Bama was screwed when I just don't see it.

[DKW 86 6,928]

Let me add something here BG.  I grew up a Bama fan but went to AU and loved it, so I now my allegance goes to AU.    But, I still like UA and pull for them except when they play AU.    That said I don't have any agenda against UA, but I do get tired of hearing how Bama was screwed when I just don't see it.

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JJ we should swap an e-mail or two about coming back from the Dark Side.

[AUloggerhead 1,828]

David...there isnt anything that could possibly come out of all this that would change your mind anyway. Not even the fact that LL and MK have already been totally been discredited. You believed everything he said because you WANTED to. Your hate for Alabama is so great...that you would rather UT get away clean, inspite of MUCH more damning black and white evidence against them...as long as Bama got hammered in the process. That, to me, is an extreme double standard.

You said yourself that Logan Young is guilty...even if he is found innocent. Why? because you hate bama. There is no more smoke around LY than there is around Roy Adams, Jimmy Rane, Bobby Lowder..etc. But you hate bama...you dont hate UT. You dont care that UGA gave money. (Yeah, your boy LL said they did). As long as bama gets punished for it.

BTW, spurrier wrote dubose about the smiley recruitment. Which was proven clean.

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Let's talk about double standards then. uat admitted they "did wrong" and self-imposed a few scholarship reductions as a result -- not too much and certainly something they could live with for a couple of years. I remember there was even a debate as to whether or not a 1-yr bowl ban should be self-imposed. In the end, uat gambled that the NCAA wouldn't impose any additional penalties and decided against it. Of course, we all know what happened. uat investigated themselves and imposed a penalty. The NCAA didn't think it was enough and levied some more. So, really the additional penalties proved to be just a matter of degree. Any rational person should see this as such. But, no ... we're talking the bammie fan base. Rational is not a word in their vocabulary. We saw a hate in them unlike anything revealed before: against the NCAA, the SEC, UT, Fulmer, TennStud, and oh yeah, . They violently objected to any more sanctions, threatened legal action, threatened to march on the NCAA office in Indianapolis, threatened to leave the SEC and join the ACC, got the state legislature to push a bill through that would prevent the NCAA from doing their job in the future.

All the while, a pattern of recruiting abuse over the years is piling up against uat. Albert Means is not the only instance, either. His just happens to be the only case that couldn't be ignored -- the smoking gun, if you will. Too many schools were offered a chance to bid on him. You want proof? Let's discuss Mike Dubose as a HC. The only way you can believe he won an SEC Championship on the level with no recruiting violations is if you also believe Barry Bonds has hit all his home runs without benefit of perfomance-enhancing steroids.

It's not hate for uat, BG. It's disgust. Got 12?