Texas Church Shooting- Over 20 Casualties

[aujeff11 6,243]

Somehow, third parties should monitor the sales of these weapons then. It may have been an innocent mistake, but it could’ve also been a seller willing to boost his commission by checking off on it. Kind of like recruiters encouraging the recruits to lie about past health issues if they really want in the military.

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5 minutes ago, aujeff11 said:

Somehow, third parties should monitor the sales of these weapons then. It may have been an innocent mistake, but it could’ve also been a seller willing to boost his commission by checking off on it. Kind of like recruiters encouraging the recruits to lie about past health issues if they really want in the military.

My bet? Somebody on the government side fat fingering the data entry.

[homersapien 11,362]

35 minutes ago, Bigbens42 said:

Last I heard he purchased the gun in April 2016 at Academy Sports in San Antonio, checking the box indicating no criminal history. Somebody didn't do their due diligence. 

Background check regulations are either non-existent or a joke.  In this case, would the FBI even know about a DV arrest in Texas?

 

 

http://lawcenter.giffords.org/background-checks-in-texas/

Last updated November 3, 2017.

Federal law requires federally licensed firearms dealers (but not private sellers) to initiate a background check on the purchaser prior to sale of a firearm. Federal law provides states with the option of serving as a state “point of contact” and conducting their own background checks using state, as well as federal, records and databases, or having the checks performed by the FBI using only the federal National Instant Criminal Background Check System (“NICS”) database. (Note that state files are not always included in the federal database.)

Texas is not a point of contact state for the NICS. Texas has no law requiring firearms dealers to initiate background checks prior to transferring a firearm. As a result, in Texas, firearms dealers must initiate the background check required by federal law by contacting the FBI directly.¹

Federal law does not require dealers to conduct a background check if a firearm purchaser presents a state permit to purchase or possess firearms that meets certain conditions. As a result,  handgun license holders in Texas are exempt from the federal background check requirement when purchasing a handgun.² (Note, however, that people who have become prohibited from possessing firearms may continue to hold state firearms licenses if the state fails to remove these licenses in a timely fashion.)

Texas does not require private sellers (sellers who are not licensed dealers) to initiate a background check when transferring a firearm. See our Private Sales policy summary for a comprehensive discussion of this issue.

[Strychnine 1,802]

2 minutes ago, Bigbens42 said:

My bet? Somebody on the government side fat fingering the data entry.

 

If the charges of domestic assault were only prosecuted by the Air Force, that information might not have even made it to the background check system beyond registering a bad conduct discharge, or at all.

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Devin Kelley Sent Mother-in-Law Who Attends Church Threatening Texts, FBI Says

Quote

The man who opened fire at a Texas church on Sunday sent threatening text messages to his mother-in-law who attended the Sutherland Springs church but was not present on Sunday, the FBI said. Christopher Combs, special agent in charge of the FBI’s San Antonio Division, said during a Monday press conference the mass murder is part of a “domestic situation.” In 2014, Kelley was discharged from the Air Force after he was convicted of assaulting his wife and child. The shooting was recorded by the congregation's camera, officials said.

May have our motive.

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12 minutes ago, Strychnine said:

If the charges of domestic assault were only prosecuted by the Air Force, that information might not have even made it to the background check system beyond registering a bad conduct discharge, or at all.

Possible. Abbot was pretty vehement that they denied him a license. Inter-agency communication can be like a Rubik's cube, though.

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

9 minutes ago, Bigbens42 said:

Possible. Abbot was pretty vehement that they denied him a license. Inter-agency communication can be like a Rubik's cube, though.

Full updated report at the below link, but taking a key part backing up Abbot's statement:

Texas Gov. Greg Abbott (R) suggested Monday morning that “there may have been a reason why this particular location was targeted,” although he did not go into detail, saying that the details could emerge in the coming hours or days.

“I don’t think this is a random act of shooting, a randomly chosen location, but obviously someone who is very deranged,” Abbott said in an interview on the “Today” show.

As investigators try to determine a motive, they are also probing how the attacker obtained his gun. Kelley had sought a license to carry a gun in Texas but was rejected, Abbott said.

“By all of the facts that we seem to know, he was not supposed to have access to a gun, so how did this happen?” Abbott said in an interview on CNN. “We are in search of answers to these questions.”

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/breakingnews/texas-massacre-followed-‘domestic-situation’-involving-gunmans-family-his-mother-in-law-had-attended-the-church/ar-AAuuLAo?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartanntp

 

[aujeff11 6,243]

11 minutes ago, Bigbens42 said:

Possible. Abbot was pretty vehement that they denied him a license. Inter-agency communication can be like a Rubik's cube, though.

I read he was denied a concealed carry permit also. I’m thinking his DV information did make it past the military base and to the background check. 

Which is important. Had a cousin at Fort Bragg and he got a DUI on base. He paid the same legal fees on top of military correction but he was able to keep it off his record.

[aujeff11 6,243]

3 minutes ago, Brad_ATX said:

Full updated report at the below link, but taking a key part backing up Abbot's statement:

Texas Gov. Greg Abbott (R) suggested Monday morning that “there may have been a reason why this particular location was targeted,” although he did not go into detail, saying that the details could emerge in the coming hours or days.

“I don’t think this is a random act of shooting, a randomly chosen location, but obviously someone who is very deranged,” Abbott said in an interview on the “Today” show.

As investigators try to determine a motive, they are also probing how the attacker obtained his gun. Kelley had sought a license to carry a gun in Texas but was rejected, Abbott said.

“By all of the facts that we seem to know, he was not supposed to have access to a gun, so how did this happen?” Abbott said in an interview on CNN. “We are in search of answers to these questions.”

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/breakingnews/texas-massacre-followed-‘domestic-situation’-involving-gunmans-family-his-mother-in-law-had-attended-the-church/ar-AAuuLAo?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartanntp

 

I’m getting mixed information. The WP is reporting:

 “Investigators are also probing how the attacker obtained his gun, noting that he had sought and failed to obtain a permit allowing him to carry a concealed weapon.” 

That distinction is important and is left out in your article

[Strychnine 1,802]

1 minute ago, homersapien said:

Background check regulations are either non-existent or a joke.  In this case, would the FBI even know about a DV arrest?

 

 

http://lawcenter.giffords.org/background-checks-in-texas/

Last updated November 3, 2017.

Federal law requires federally licensed firearms dealers (but not private sellers) to initiate a background check on the purchaser prior to sale of a firearm. Federal law provides states with the option of serving as a state “point of contact” and conducting their own background checks using state, as well as federal, records and databases, or having the checks performed by the FBI using only the federal National Instant Criminal Background Check System (“NICS”) database. (Note that state files are not always included in the federal database.)

Texas is not a point of contact state for the NICS. Texas has no law requiring firearms dealers to initiate background checks prior to transferring a firearm. As a result, in Texas, firearms dealers must initiate the background check required by federal law by contacting the FBI directly.¹

Federal law does not require dealers to conduct a background check if a firearm purchaser presents a state permit to purchase or possess firearms that meets certain conditions. As a result,  handgun license holders in Texas are exempt from the federal background check requirement when purchasing a handgun.² (Note, however, that people who have become prohibited from possessing firearms may continue to hold state firearms licenses if the state fails to remove these licenses in a timely fashion.)

Texas does not require private sellers (sellers who are not licensed dealers) to initiate a background check when transferring a firearm. See our Private Sales policy summary for a comprehensive discussion of this issue.

 

In 2017, there is absolutely no good reason for the lack of a consolidated database, accessible to dealers and law enforcement, that contains the complete criminal history of everyone in every state.  There should also be a system to quickly determine or update the validity of any state firearm or concealed carry license.  We could make it even easier to roll out by requiring verification of a state or federal license to purchase firearms.  If we are going to continue to allow sales between individuals residing in the same state, then make license verification available to the public.

[Strychnine 1,802]

3 minutes ago, aujeff11 said:

I read he was denied a concealed carry permit also. I’m thinking his DV information did make it past the military base and to the background check. 

Which is important. Had a cousin at Fort Bragg and he got a DUI on base. He paid the same legal fees on top of military correction but he was able to keep it off his record.

 

In many states, there are restrictions imposed on carry license eligibility that are more stringent than those of simply purchasing a firearm.  Having a bad conduct discharge might result in denial, regardless of what it was for.

[aujeff11 6,243]

Just now, Strychnine said:

 

In many states, there are restrictions imposed on carry license eligibility that are more stringent than those of simply purchasing a firearm.  Having a bad conduct discharge might result in denial, regardless of what it was for.

So you’re saying the bad conduct charge might’ve denied the application to carry but not the application to purchase. If not by mistake, that makes no sense at all. 

What does a concealed carry license have to with his AR? He’s not going to be concealing it on his person. The problem is that he purchased the AR. 

[Strychnine 1,802]

2 minutes ago, aujeff11 said:

So you’re saying the bad conduct charge might’ve denied the application to carry but not the application to purchase. If not by mistake, that makes no sense at all. 

What does a concealed carry license have to with his AR? He’s not going to be concealing it on his person. The problem is that he purchased the AR. 

 

Bad conduct discharge alone does not preclude someone from purchasing a firearm, but it might preclude someone from being eligible for a carry license.  Maybe Texas had access to accurate records and denied it because he was not legally able to even purchase a firearm.

If NICS had accurate information, he should not have been able to purchase an AR, a revolver, a single-shot .22LR, or anything that required the completion of Form 4473 and an NICS check.

[aujeff11 6,243]

4 minutes ago, Strychnine said:

 

Bad conduct discharge alone does not preclude someone from purchasing a firearm, but it might preclude someone from being eligible for a carry license.  Maybe Texas had access to accurate records and denied it because he was not legally able to even purchase a firearm.

If NICS had accurate information, he should not have been able to purchase an AR, a revolver, a single-shot .22LR, or anything that required the completion of Form 4473 and an NICS check.

 

Kelley purchased the Ruger AR-556 rifle in April 2016 from an Academy Sports & Outdoors store in San Antonio, a law enforcement official told CNN. 

When Kelley filled out the background check paperwork at the store, he checked the box to indicate he didn't have disqualifying criminal history, the official said. He listed an address in Colorado Springs, Colorado when he bought the rifle, the official said.

What would the purpose of this be? 

[Strychnine 1,802]

Unless it is an address he listed for unknown reasons, that means he handed the Academy employee a Colorado drivers' license.  If accurate, that alone should have precluded him from walking out the door with a firearm.  Firearms can only be transferred (sold) to non-FFL citizens in their state of residence.  He might not have known that, but the employees at Academy should have.  Most large stores even have the paperwork checked by a second employee, in order to catch things just like that.  The way Academy should have handled that is he pays for the rifle, and then it is shipped to an FFL in Colorado (like another Academy store for example), and the transfer occurs there.

That said, if the NICS had accurate information about his BCD for domestic assault, no firearm should have left any store in his possession.

[aujeff11 6,243]

So far, it appears to me that there is a chance that Devin Kelley may not have been lying when he checked the box that he didn’t have disqualifying criminal history, and it’s also possible that it was no accident that he was able to purchase the weapon. He had a bad conduct charge which is a step below a dishonorable charge. And his domestic abuse case isn’t necessarily a felony case as UCMJ do not classify crimes through misdemeanor and felony umbrellas. 

[aujeff11 6,243]

6 minutes ago, Strychnine said:

Unless it is an address he listed for unknown reasons, that means he handed the Academy employee a Colorado drivers' license.  If accurate, that alone should have precluded him from walking out the door with a firearm.  Firearms can only be transferred (sold) to non-FFL citizens in their state of residence.  He might not have known that, but the employees at Academy should have.  Most large stores even have the paperwork checked by a second employee, in order to catch things just like that.  The way Academy should have handled that is he pays for the rifle, and then it is shipped to an FFL in Colorado (like another Academy store for example), and the transfer occurs there.

That said, if the NICS had accurate information about his BCD for domestic assault, no firearm should have left any store in his possession.

First, I know you know your s*** on weapons but don’t be using acronyms because they’re becoming hard to follow. I have never purchased a firearm on the civilian side and you’re not doing me any solids by complicating the matter. 

10 minutes ago, Strychnine said:

Unless it is an address he listed for unknown reasons, that means he handed the Academy employee a Colorado drivers' license.

How?  Was it fake? I haven’t heard that he lived in Colorado. 

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

1 hour ago, aujeff11 said:

I’m getting mixed information. The WP is reporting:

 “Investigators are also probing how the attacker obtained his gun, noting that he had sought and failed to obtain a permit allowing him to carry a concealed weapon.” 

That distinction is important and is left out in your article

Weird considering they're both WaPo.  Could be that my article is an hour or two older than yours as well and new info is coming out.

[The Freak 2,526]

14 minutes ago, Strychnine said:

Unless it is an address he listed for unknown reasons, that means he handed the Academy employee a Colorado drivers' license.  If accurate, that alone should have precluded him from walking out the door with a firearm.  Firearms can only be transferred (sold) to non-FFL citizens in their state of residence.  He might not have known that, but the employees at Academy should have.  Most large stores even have the paperwork checked by a second employee, in order to catch things just like that.  The way Academy should have handled that is he pays for the rifle, and then it is shipped to an FFL in Colorado (like another Academy store for example), and the transfer occurs there.

That said, if the NICS had accurate information about his BCD for domestic assault, no firearm should have left any store in his possession.

I think that varies by state.  I know I can buy long guns in other states, but have to have an FFL to buy a handgun.

[Strychnine 1,802]

1 minute ago, The Freak said:

I think that varies by state.  I know I can buy long guns in other states, but have to have an FFL to buy a handgun.

 

I knew there was a restriction on handguns across state lines from looking into it several years ago.  I assumed it was firearms in general, as that makes sense.

[Strychnine 1,802]

7 minutes ago, aujeff11 said:

First, I know you know your s*** on weapons but don’t be using acronyms because they’re becoming hard to follow. I have never purchased a firearm on the civilian side and you’re not doing me any solids by complicating the matter. 

How?  Was it fake? I haven’t heard that he lived in Colorado. 

 

FFL means Federal Firearms License.  It is required to engage in the business of selling firearms.

Every dealer I have purchased a firearm from wanted my drivers license and weapons carry license.  The address on your license is the one that goes on your Form 4473.  After looking into it, shotguns and rifles can be purchased by out of state residents.  It is only handguns that cannot.  Therefore, the address is ultimately irrelevant.

Moving back to what should have precluded from purchasing a firearm:  Even a misdemeanor domestic violence conviction precludes someone from buying a gun.  After looking into the UCMJ, the military does not appear to have specific charges for domestic violence or assault.  That said, Form 4473 says the following:

A member of the Armed Forces must answer "yes" to 11.b. or 11.c. if charged with an offense that was either referred to a General Court Martial, or at which the member was convicted. Discharged "under dishonorable conditions" means separation from the Armed Forces resulting from a dishonorable discharge or dismissal adjudged by a General Court-Martial. That term does not include any other discharge or separation from the Armed Forces.

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40 minutes ago, aujeff11 said:

I haven’t heard that he lived in Colorado. 

Denver Post found voting records indicating he did. 

http://www.denverpost.com/2017/11/05/texas-church-shooter-devin-patrick-kelley-lived-colorado-springs/

[aujeff11 6,243]

24 minutes ago, Strychnine said:

 

FFL means Federal Firearms License.  It is required to engage in the business of selling firearms.

Every dealer I have purchased a firearm from wanted my drivers license and weapons carry license.  The address on your license is the one that goes on your Form 4473.  After looking into it, shotguns and rifles can be purchased by out of state residents.  It is only handguns that cannot.  Therefore, the address is ultimately irrelevant.

Moving back to what should have precluded from purchasing a firearm:  Even a misdemeanor domestic violence conviction precludes someone from buying a gun.  After looking into the UCMJ, the military does not appear to have specific charges for domestic violence or assault.  That said, Form 4473 says the following:

A member of the Armed Forces must answer "yes" to 11.b. or 11.c. if charged with an offense that was either referred to a General Court Martial, or at which the member was convicted. Discharged "under dishonorable conditions" means separation from the Armed Forces resulting from a dishonorable discharge or dismissal adjudged by a General Court-Martial. That term does not include any other discharge or separation from the Armed Forces.

Thanks. Apparently this Devin Kelley guy was able to purchase 4 weapons. There wasn’t a loophole that was circumvented, just a gap between intent and reality.

[Strychnine 1,802]

Just now, aujeff11 said:

Thanks. Apparently this Devin Kelley guy was able to purchase 4 weapons. There wasn’t a loophole that was circumvented, just a gap between intent and reality.

 

According to CBS, the Air Force has said his case was a General Court Martial, which is treated as a felony on Form 4473.  One thing I have no idea about is what information makes it from military proceedings to NICS, which is what is used for Form 4473 background checks.  BCD can result from either Special or General Court Martial, where they are considered misdemeanor or felony, respectively.  If NICS had records indicating that he was discharged in a General Court Martial, there should have at least been a hold placed on the purchase while someone investigated further.

Once a human saw that he was confined for 12 months and then discharged in a General Court Martial, for assaulting his wife and child, the decision to deny the purchase is obvious.  I suspect that is why Texas denied his request for a carry license.  Whoever was conducting the background check for his application probably saw the discharge and then looked deeper.  By the time of his conviction, he should have been required to surrender any firearms in his possession, informed that he could no longer legally possess firearms, and the NICS should have been updated to reflect that.

As I said earlier, there is no good reason for there to be a background check system with incomplete information on criminal history, given the technology that is currently widely available.

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