How Do Christians Fit Into the Two-Party System? They Don’t

[DKW 86 8,204]

 

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How Do Christians Fit Into the Two-Party System? They Don’t

Another reason not to align the Christian faith with one party is that most political positions are not matters of biblical command but of practical wisdom. This does not mean that the church can never speak on social, economic and political realities, because the Bible often does. Racism is a sin, violating the second of the two great commandments of Jesus, to “love your neighbor.” The biblical commands to lift up the poor and to defend the rights of the oppressed are moral imperatives for believers. For individual Christians to speak out against egregious violations of these moral requirements is not optional.

However, there are many possible ways to help the poor. Should we shrink government and let private capital markets allocate resources, or should we expand the government and give the state more of the power to redistribute wealth? Or is the right path one of the many possibilities in between? The Bible does not give exact answers to these questions for every time, place and culture.

 

I know of a man from Mississippi who was a conservative Republican and a traditional Presbyterian. He visited the Scottish Highlands and found the churches there as strict and as orthodox as he had hoped. No one so much as turned on a television on a Sunday. Everyone memorized catechisms and Scripture. But one day he discovered that the Scottish Christian friends he admired were (in his view) socialists. Their understanding of government economic policy and the state’s responsibilities was by his lights very left-wing, yet also grounded in their Christian convictions. He returned to the United States not more politically liberal but, in his words, “humbled and chastened.” He realized that thoughtful Christians, all trying to obey God’s call, could reasonably appear at different places on the political spectrum, with loyalties to different political strategies.

 

The problem with the Right in America is they have been indoctrinated not with the Holy Book, but with the Book of Hannity and Limbaugh. "Rugged Individualism" is now a sacred term to some. Love thy neighbor is in the Bible. I cant find that RI stuff tho.

[GiveEmElle 1,559]

I wonder if Franklin Graham would agree?

[TitanTiger 22,249]

7 minutes ago, GiveEmElle said:

I wonder if Franklin Graham would agree?

His actions are your answer.

[GiveEmElle 1,559]

25 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

His actions are your answer.

I forgot to use the sarcasm font again, didn’t I ?

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

On ‎10‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 7:14 AM, DKW 86 said:

 

The problem with the Right in America is they have been indoctrinated not with the Holy Book, but with the Book of Hannity and Limbaugh. "Rugged Individualism" is now a sacred term to some. Love thy neighbor is in the Bible. I cant find that RI stuff tho.

I wildly disagree my friend. I love my neighbor who means me or my family no harm. I think you must be talking about What's Wrong With America.

[DKW 86 8,204]

1 hour ago, Proud Tiger said:

I wildly disagree my friend. I love my neighbor who means me or my family no harm. I think you must be talking about What's Wrong With America.

And we Disagree

[TitanTiger 22,249]

2 hours ago, Proud Tiger said:

I wildly disagree my friend. I love my neighbor who means me or my family no harm. I think you must be talking about What's Wrong With America.

Scripture does not say "who means me or my family no harm."

[TitanTiger 22,249]

DKW, homer....get a room.

I removed your little side session.  Kerryon.

[DKW 86 8,204]

13 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

DKW, homer....get a room.

I removed your little side session.  Kerryon.

TY...

[bigbird 61,284]

This might be way off, but my dad and I were talking about this a year or so ago and he had a very good point, IMO.  He said that when he was growing up(born in '47) when there was a need in the community/county, people went to the church for help. He said that that's how Christians helped each other as well as providing help and witness to others.  He added, everyone tithed and everyone made themselves available for any help needed. Yes, he kinda grew up in Mayberry.

He added it is no longer that way because, in his opinion, the church stopped being the center of people's lives and the community.  The transition from the church centered community to the present day government ran, need based system is convoluted and filled with many motivations and justifications that are best left for another thread.

I believe that we, as Christians, have been called to take care of those that can't take care of themselves.  I do not believe that we should take care of those that can, but won't help themselves.  I believe there is a real need for Medicaid and food stamps as well as the other forms of assistance like skills/job trainings. That said, I believe the system is corrupt and the programs are being taken advantage of and have been since their inceptions.  I believe that the idea of governmental assistance was to help  people get through hard times until they got back on their feet, it wasn't to supplement ones work or be the sole source of income.  And while the safety net of the assistance programs is great and at times necessary, IMO, there needs to be a limit to the time allowed on certain programs. Also, I believe there needs to be more done at the local levels by the community churches to lesson the reliance of the governmental programs. JMO.

[DKW 86 8,204]

4 hours ago, bigbird said:

This might be way off, but my dad and I were talking about this a year or so ago and he had a very good point, IMO.  He said that when he was growing up(born in '47) when there was a need in the community/county, people went to the church for help. He said that that's how Christians helped each other as well as providing help and witness to others.  He added, everyone tithed and everyone made themselves available for any help needed. Yes, he kinda grew up in Mayberry.

He added it is no longer that way because, in his opinion, the church stopped being the center of people's lives and the community.  The transition from the church centered community to the present day government ran, need based system is convoluted and filled with many motivations and justifications that are best left for another thread.

I believe that we, as Christians, have been called to take care of those that can't take care of themselves.  I do not believe that we should take care of those that can, but won't help themselves.  I believe there is a real need for Medicaid and food stamps as well as the other forms of assistance like skills/job trainings. That said, I believe the system is corrupt and the programs are being taken advantage of and have been since their inceptions.  I believe that the idea of governmental assistance was to help  people get through hard times until they got back on their feet, it wasn't to supplement ones work or be the sole source of income.  And while the safety net of the assistance programs is great and at times necessary, IMO, there needs to be a limit to the time allowed on certain programs. Also, I believe there needs to be more done at the local levels by the community churches to lesson the reliance of the governmental programs. JMO.

That is pretty much the feelings of most Real Christians. Unfortunately, I think some churches, especially older mainline denoms have turned into social country clubs. Places you get out to eat with friends etc. They do little for their communities other than maybe politically blindly support Republican causes. ( Book of Hannity and Limbaugh.) When you find a church committed to the community, you will find a spirit there that is awesome, overwhelming, that feeds your soul and makes you want to do more. At the church I am at now, rather than trying to drag my old church back up to where they should have been, I am outrun by people that do it far better than me. 

My family almost RUNS TO CHURCH now. We get up on Sunday ready for the Joy of Worship and being with great folks moving rapidly toward our goals. It is cool not having to even mention getting ready to the family. It is the joy of my life to be at a church like that. But it is because I have seen what church is supposed to be. 

[bigbird 61,284]

2 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

That is pretty much the feelings of most Real Christians. Unfortunately, I think some churches, especially older mainline denoms have turned into social country clubs. Places you get out to eat with friends etc. They do little for their communities other than maybe politically blindly support Republican causes. ( Book of Hannity and Limbaugh.) When you find a church committed to the community, you will find a spirit there that is awesome, overwhelming, that feeds your soul and makes you want to do more. At the church I am at now, rather than trying to drag my old church back up to where they should have been, I am outrun by people that do it far better than me. 

My family almost RUNS TO CHURCH now. We get up on Sunday ready for the Joy of Worship and being with great folks moving rapidly toward our goals. It is cool not having to even mention getting ready to the family. It is the joy of my life to be at a church like that. But it is because I have seen what church is supposed to be. 

I agree.  IMO, a lot of what turns people away from church is the intolerance that they feel as well as the many churches built and run in corruption. 

Another thing that I think is hurting is the half-truth, feel good messages being propagated by the Joel Olsteens of the world.  Truth, and in fact biblical truths, are not all Skittles, unicorns, and rainbows and when people are confronted with the reality of choices and consequences, those half-truths crumble and they feel lied to and betrayed. They become bitter and cynical with little to no room for anything church related.

 

BTW, our church sounds very much like yours. It is a joy.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

On ‎10‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 11:02 PM, TitanTiger said:

Scripture does not say "who means me or my family no harm."

No it doesn't but it doesn't define neighbor either. Do you, for example, love the ISIS guys who  cut off heads and are determined to kill all infidels (us)?

[GiveEmElle 1,559]

11 minutes ago, Proud Tiger said:

No it doesn't but it doesn't define neighbor either. Do you, for example, love the ISIS guys who  cut off heads and are determined to kill all infidels (us)?

Mmmmm, pretty certain that Jesus did define who a neighbor is. You know, that story about the Good Samaritan? But maybe that story isn’t in the GOP bible. 

[TitanTiger 22,249]

52 minutes ago, Proud Tiger said:

No it doesn't but it doesn't define neighbor either. Do you, for example, love the ISIS guys who  cut off heads and are determined to kill all infidels (us)?

It does by implication.  That is the entire point of Jesus using a Samaritan as the hero of the story.  Samaritans were a despised race of 'half-breed' and semi-pagans to the Jews.  One of the teachers of the law asks the same question you do:

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Luke 10:25-37

25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

26 "What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

27 He answered, “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

30 In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”

Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”

When Jesus says "go and do likewise," he's telling us that we are to treat even those who despise us as our neighbor.  He put no qualifications on it.  Everyone is your neighbor, even your enemy whom Jesus commands us to love and pray for.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

2 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

It does by implication.  That is the entire point of Jesus using a Samaritan as the hero of the story.  Samaritans were a despised race of 'half-breed' and semi-pagans to the Jews.  One of the teachers of the law asks the same question you do:

When Jesus says "go and do likewise," he's telling us that we are to treat even those who despise us as our neighbor.  He put no qualifications on it.  Everyone is your neighbor, even your enemy whom Jesus commands us to love and pray for.

I didn't say there wasn't "implication" or example. But you quoted specific verse and all I'm saying is there is no specific verse defining neighbor. Jesus sure didn't show much love for the money changers in the temple.

But moving on from that......you didn't answer my question and even left it out of my post you quoted.

 

[TitanTiger 22,249]

15 minutes ago, Proud Tiger said:

I didn't say there wasn't "implication" or example. But you quoted specific verse and all I'm saying is there is no specific verse defining neighbor. Jesus sure didn't show much love for the money changers in the temple.

Does scolding someone for doing wrong mean they aren't your neighbor or that you aren't called to love them?  When you scolded or disciplined your kids, did you not love them at that time?

Besides, you said the Scriptures don't define who our neighbor is.  It clearly does: Everyone.  Everyone is your neighbor.

 

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But moving on from that......you didn't answer my question and even left it out of my post you quoted.

I felt the answer I gave did answer your question.  I don't have to love what they do or allow them to do it unchecked.  

Love isn't even about "feelings."  To love is a decision you make.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

3 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

 

I felt the answer I gave did answer your question.  I don't have to love what they do or allow them to do it unchecked.  

Love isn't even about "feelings."  To love is a decision you make.

Maybe you can answer yes or know.......do you love a PERSON like ISIS guys who chop off people's heads?

[TitanTiger 22,249]

14 minutes ago, Proud Tiger said:

Maybe you can answer yes or know.......do you love a PERSON like ISIS guys who chop off people's heads?

Yes or no isn't a sufficient response.

I am commanded by Jesus to love them.  I don't *feel* love for them.  I have to choose to love them.  I have to *choose* to love my enemies and pray for those who persecute me.  It is an effort and a very hard one at that.

Do you dispute that the Scriptures teach this?

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

Yes or no is pretty simple. No I don't dispute the scriptures but sometime it is not easy to wrap a ribbon around. I gave you an example of Jesus and the money changes. Do you think his anger and action against was an example of love./

Anyhow, we can post all day long on this and probably not agree 100%. But I hate to see stuff like this in political forums. Maybe we need a forum for Religious discussion.

I quit this one on my end by saying God bless you if just the words "love they neighbor'" are crystal clear.  I obviously struggle with this.

[TitanTiger 22,249]

Just now, Proud Tiger said:

Yes or no is pretty simple. No I don't dispute the scriptures but sometime it is not easy to wrap a ribbon around. I gave you an example of Jesus and the money changes. Do you think his anger and action against was an example of love.

I never claimed it was easy.  But it is simple.  We're commanded to love people, even our enemies and people who do horrible things.  Even if we don't *feel* love toward them.  And I told you that you can scold or discipline someone you love, such as your own children.  When you spanked them for their own good, did you stop loving them?

 

Just now, Proud Tiger said:

Anyhow, we can post all day long on this and probably not agree 100%. But I hate to see stuff like this in political forums. Maybe we need a forum for Religious discussion.

I quit this one on my end by saying God bless you if just the words "love they neighbor'" are crystal clear.  I obviously struggle with this.

I also struggle.  Just because it's simple (in that his commands on it are clear), I would never say it's easy.

[homersapien 12,842]

On 10/3/2018 at 6:25 AM, TitanTiger said:

DKW, homer....get a room.

I removed your little side session.  Kerryon.

 

Well, if it's OK to talk about the Christian ethic of loving one's neighbor is it OK if I bring up the sin of bearing false witness without mentioning names?

I do take it such behavior is abhorrent from a Christian perspective, right? 

[TitanTiger 22,249]

2 minutes ago, homersapien said:

 

Well, if it's OK to talk about the Christian ethic of loving one's neighbor is it OK if I bring up the sin of bearing false witness without mentioning names?

I do take it such behavior is abhorrent from a Christian perspective, right? 

Had it been a reasoned discussion, perhaps.  But it was mostly just you two sniping at each other.

[GiveEmElle 1,559]

6 hours ago, Proud Tiger said:

I didn't say there wasn't "implication" or example. But you quoted specific verse and all I'm saying is there is no specific verse defining neighbor. Jesus sure didn't show much love for the money changers in the temple.

But moving on from that......you didn't answer my question and even left it out of my post you quoted.

 

He didn’t show much love for the money changers? I guess being beaten half to death with a cat of nine tails then nailed to a cross to suffocate and die for the sins of mankind isn’t really showing much love. Republicans are so good at bastardizing scripture. 

[GiveEmElle 1,559]

5 hours ago, homersapien said:

 

Well, if it's OK to talk about the Christian ethic of loving one's neighbor is it OK if I bring up the sin of bearing false witness without mentioning names?

I do take it such behavior is abhorrent from a Christian perspective, right? 

Bearing false witness or lying is only abhorrent from a Christian perspective if you aren’t a Republican.