50 Day Africa Hunt

[japantiger 4,051]

Spent most of August and September in South Africa, Namibia and Zambia....hell of a hunt

[japantiger 4,051]

[japantiger 4,051]

 

Edited November 27, 2022 by japantiger

[japantiger 4,051]

25 degree mornings when we started in South Africa to temps over 100 during the peak of the day by the time we finished in Zambia.

[japantiger 4,051]

[japantiger 4,051]

[japantiger 4,051]

[japantiger 4,051]

[japantiger 4,051]

During the hunt, we provided over 22,000 pounds of meat to the surrounding villages.  This is the only source of protein many have in their diets.  

[japantiger 4,051]

[japantiger 4,051]

We hunted an area in the Northern Cape, South Africa, once inhabited by Bushmen.  These are the carvings left in a small grotto drained by several springs.

[The Freak 2,526]

I thought Rhinos and elephants were protected?

[icanthearyou 4,462]

The joy of killing.  How manly.

 

[japantiger 4,051]

19 minutes ago, The Freak said:

I thought Rhinos and elephants were protected?

They are protected...but not excluded from hunting.  As for Rhino's, Black Rhino's are the endangered ones in most locations.  White rhino's are quite numerous with growing populations in the hunting areas.  Avg population growth in hunting protected areas will be 8-10% year with harvest totals under 1%.  Elephants are overrunning many of the hunting areas as quotas haven't kept up with population growth.  Botswana just reintroduced elephant hunting last year after a long ban...elephants were destroying too much habitat for the other animals and human confrontation was getting out of hand.  In Namibia, Tanzania, Botswana, Mozambique, Angola, Zimbabwe, Zambia and South Africa hunting is thriving and game populations are growing.  When hunting is outlawed, game populations crash as they no longer have economic value and poaching and human encroachment decimates the populations. 

All the game taken turns into food for the local populations....I shot a total of ~44k pounds of animals on this trip; my 22k pounds of meet is conservative given elephant, hippo and rhino yields run much higher than thet 50-55% averages.  This is the only protein most of the communities get.  Absent hunting, the locals are reduced to subsistence farming and are in dire straights.  

[japantiger 4,051]

5 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

The joy of killing.  How manly.

 

“Maybe stalking the woods is as vital to the human condition as playing music or putting words to paper. Maybe hunting has as much of a claim on our civilized selves as anything else. After all, the earliest forms of representational art reflect hunters and prey. While the arts were making us spiritually viable, hunting did the heavy lifting of not only keeping us alive, but inspiring us. To abhor hunting is to hate the place from which you came, which is akin to hating yourself in some distant, abstract way.” ― Steven Rinella

You should be educated on the impact of hunting:

 

 

Edited December 1, 2022 by japantiger

[icanthearyou 4,462]

I know all about hunting.  What you are doing is not hunting.

[japantiger 4,051]

Wow...I guess me and the millions of folks that do this globally are mistaken...thanks for letting me in on it.  I know the folks I fed in Africa will be disappointed to hear it....maybe I should go back over there and take it away from them.  You know, because, we Americans know what's best for the world and how everyone should use their resources....  I mean, of course their starving and malnourished otherwise, but hey, you know best.  

 

The dream team:
Left to right:Max, Bongani, Pietro (Hatchetman), Longman and the Conservancy Warden .

Longman raises goats and subsistence farms when not hunting. A hyena broke into his goat pens and killed all his goats. He tracked the hyena for 6 miles and crawled into it's burrow with a knife and killed it. He then cooked and ate it. Said the only way to have his goats was to eat what ate his goats.

 

[CoffeeTiger 5,084]

5 hours ago, japantiger said:

During the hunt, we provided over 22,000 pounds of meat to the surrounding villages.  This is the only source of protein many have in their diets.  

Thanks for that tidbit. I was wondering what happens to all the bodies/meat. 

 

Not really a hunter myself, but the pictures are interesting and its good to hear it helped out some people. 

[japantiger 4,051]

An African hunting camp will generally employ 15 - 22 people.  Trackers, skinners, cooks, cleaners, etc.  Depending on the country, you will also have a game warden and there will be APUs in the area (anti poaching units).  Hunting creates all these jobs.  Absent this, they would be subsistence farming and the APUs would lack funding to operate.  After hunting season, they return to their villages and work their farms.  They are wealthy in comparison to everyone else...

A typical village will have 300 -500 people and a village will have a school.  The hunting meat provides the school lunches served each day.  The concession of the elephant hunt (Namibia)  supported 4 of these villages.  The other concessions supported 1 village each.  When we came in to the main village with the elephant for skinning and distribution, the tracking/skinning team were like rock stars. The elephant meant protein for months. The meat is distributed to all families.

Each country supports APUs in a different way.  In Zambia and Namibia, they are funded and fed by the hunting concession.  On both hunts I have done in Namibia I have shot animals for the sole purpose being to feed the APU in the area.  Same this time in Zambia.  I also shot a hippo at the request of the local Chief (chief for 7 villages) to be used to feed his 7 tribal villages during the upcoming fall festival.  Outside the main cities, all government is tribal. 

All this support for the APUs, etc., are on my own dime.  I am not unique in this, most hunters like me do this type of thing when asked. All you need to do is visit a village in one of these countries and you cannot say no.  

The APUs are law enforcement agencies supported by the government in varying degrees of thoroughness...hence hunting concession support.  Their job is dangerous from 2 aspects 1) dangerous game and 2) poacher confrontation.  In South Africa, Tanzania and Botswana for example  they are better funded and have uniforms, motorbikes, AKs all standard.  Even helicopter air support. In the others, they have shelter and their weapons are a mix with shotguns being preferred (000 buckshot being preferred for dangerous game encounters they can't navigate out of). In SA, if they catch poachers, I would say most are never tried. It varies in the other countries depending on how organized and aggressive the poachers are.

There are 3 types of poachers. 1) subsistence 2) bushmeat syndicates and 3) export. SUBSISTENCE is the smallest % (under 5%) and represents the least danger to wildlife populations. If an APU catches a subsistence poacher they are mostly let go.  Warned, but let go.  These poor folks are just trying to live. MEAT SYNDICATES are organized crime syndicates killing animals in mass for the purposes of butchering and selling the meat in local markets. Black market meat operations. The preferred weapon is the snare...snares are indiscriminate. the poacher may want springbok or Impala for their "customers".  But if the game is  being stalked by a lion or leopard Wild dog, they are also snared and killed. This is half the poaching problem. Last is EXPORT poaching.  This is thanks to China.  Elephant tusk and Rhino horn are the leading product.  This is the biggest threat to these large animals.  The meat is left to rot.  The tusk/horn is taken and sold to Chinese crime groups for export across Asia. 10 years ago in Kruger reserve in SA there were nearly 10k Rhino....that number is now 1800. Sometimes the rhino are darted and the horn cut out of a live animal.  The animal awakes with part of its face gone.  I can post a video for anyone interested....it is disturbing.

Absent sustainable and regulated hunting, there would be no game populations left with 2 decades (probably less).  The countries that have banned hunting have seen game populations collapse as poaching runs unabated.  This is why this statement can be made with confidence.  Hunting provides a sustainable economic model for those in the country and this is fully supported by the African countries.  Photos safaris also help, but provide 1/10th the funding as hunting... photographers are cheap apparently 😂.  Hunting is enshrined as a right in the Namibian constitution.

 

[japantiger 4,051]

The last photo shows a wound on the lions back from his recent fights.  He also had divots on the back of his head from other lion paws.  Note also the small mane on the lion.  These lions live in the Mopani thickets and their manes get stripped off by all the briars (inches long) as they move thru these thickets.

[icanthearyou 4,462]

https://www.hsi.org/news-media/hunting-economic-impact-report-020117/

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

You accepting job applications?

[japantiger 4,051]

2 hours ago, icanthearyou said:

https://www.hsi.org/news-media/hunting-economic-impact-report-020117/

Let's get some analysis from the local countries and not the US and UK humane society....let's just say they are hardly honest information brokers when it comes to hunting...which you told me I wasn't doing, by the way...so I guess you've changed your mind on that now:

Before we explore other articles, though, let's address the key points in yours...the info in red:

As well as being cruel, trophy hunting is detrimental to conservation because: 

• hunters kill the strongest animals that are critical to strengthening the gene pool...This is not true..hunting focuses on post reproductive males that dominate herds or old batchelor males.  This actually strengthens the gene pool and allows females to breed with younger more vigorous males to diversity and strengthen the gene pool. 
• hunting quotas are frequently set without a solid scientific basis no basis in fact for making this statement.  Huntable lands are census'd every year.  In private reserves this is done by the owners using the same methods USF&W uses and most use drones now as well; this is reported to the Governments by law.  In government run conservancies, these census's are carried by game wardens in the same way they are done in the US. When you talk to game wardens, that by the way, are in the vehicle with you the entire hunt, they will tell you exactly what is happening to the populations with great precision.  They also have extensive knowledge of migration patters, growth patterns, dangerous game ranges and the ages of the males dominating territories or prides...they've been there for years and seen them on cameras and can ID individual males.  
• age restrictions for hunted animals are ignored so that, for example, lions are killed as juveniles before they can contribute to the genetic pool this is not true for various reasons.  One, if a PH (professional hunter) allows a client to shoot an underage animal, the game warden is there to report it.  PH's can lose their licenses for this...and thus their livelihoods.  Concession owners (licensed by the government) the same.  These folks run these businesses for years.  They have no economic or professional incentive to either dilute the gene pool or risk their livelihoods.  PH's undergo an extensive apprenticeship in these countries and then licensing exams.  As part of the exams, the PH's must be able, in the field, to sex and age animals appropriately.  I think my wife actually said it best after our first Africa hunt a few years ago; "the PH has to be able to read the animals birth certificate in the field before your can shoot".As an example, we viewed the lion I shot for 30 minutes looking at all aspects of anatomy to ensure he was the appropriate age (he was 7); lions in the wild can live 8-10 years...so this guy was up there...he was a batchelor (basically in his 70's).  The field assessment was spot on the post mortem analysis...this was after 15 days of hunting lion.  On the leopard, one afternoon we had 4 leopards come in on a bait; 3 were female and one was an immature male....no shot...it took 18 days to get a male and of  sufficient age to take a shot.  The elephant I shot was ~58 years old; older than average life span in the wild...he was with 2 other old batchalor elephants. Well past breeding age.
• The other very practical impact is if an underage animal is shot; it will not be importable to either the US or UK.  There are global standards agencies (CITIES) involved that publish the rules annually on what you can and cannot do.  The various F&W agencies monitor and enforce import requirements.  
• corruption prevents trophy hunting funds from making it to conservation Good lord...facts?  None of course.  Not even going to address this.  

As for economic impacts, I'm not going to refute every bullet point in the paper...I don't have to.  Most are wrong by orders of magnitude.  The employment numbers cited are roughly what South Africa alone employs in hunting; As for the overall econimic $$ impact...SA actual numbers are $341m...your article cited $132m for the entire continent.  I'm just gonna go out on a limb here and say that you and the humane society are not acting in good faith.  Hell, the human society doesn't even want me to eat bacon...

Tourism is 10% of most of these countries GDP (per statista and wikipedia), not 2% cited in your article, etc.  Of tourism numbers, most of Africa's tourist come from Africa (80% and are not the source of hunters).  20% of tourism is from the US, Europe, etc.  These people spend orders of magnitude more than the average tourist spends.  Said in business terms, they are the 20 that drives the 80.

As for relative spend, the average hunting package in 2015 was $26,000.  A hunt like mine considerably more.  Check online for photo safaries....these are generally under $5k.  As for overall economic impacts to the region, you get two views...one, just the absolute number in South Africa is larger than cited by the human society for the continent ...and two, ~100% of the economic impact of hunting goes to rural communities.  So when you look at the GDP of the country, the tourism or hunting numbers will not dominate the economy...the GDP of any country is focused in it's cities.  In the US, 88% of the GDP is in 359 cities/towns.  Rural GDP accounts for 12% of overall GDP in the US (per Statista)....employment follows.  Africa GDP is even more concentrated in the big cities.  So the hunting jobs created are a very large percentage of the total jobs in the rural areas where unemployment runs over 50% (SA total unemployment is 32%). 

At a human and personal level, what damn difference does it make if it's 20% of jobs or 5% of jobs.  It's jobs and food for people that otherwise have none.  When was the last time you were in Africa face to face with a malnourished child? I've been going their for nearly 25 years...working, building AIDS orphanages and schools, other charity work...it's awfully damn easy for a smug fat-ass American to set around with a full belly and look down on some one else's choice of how to make a living. 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2351989418302336

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/329837260_The_economic_impact_of_trophy_hunting_in_the_south_African_wildlife_industry

 

 

Edited December 2, 2022 by japantiger

[icanthearyou 4,462]

2 minutes ago, japantiger said:

Let's get some analysis from the local countries and not the US and UK humane society....let's just say they are hardly honest information brokers when it comes to hunting...which you told me I wasn't doing, by the way...so I guess you've changed your mind on that now:

Before we explore other articles, though, let's address the key points in yours...the info in red:

As well as being cruel, trophy hunting is detrimental to conservation because: 

• hunters kill the strongest animals that are critical to strengthening the gene pool...This is not true..hunting focuses on post reproductive males that dominate herds or old batchelor males.  This actually strengthens the gene pool and allows females to breed with younger more vigorous males to diversity and strengthen the gene pool. 
• hunting quotas are frequently set without a solid scientific basis no basis in fact for making this statement.  Huntable lands are census'd every year.  In private reserves this is done by the owners using the same methods USF&W uses and most use drones now as well; this is reported to the Governments by law.  In government run conservancies, these census's are carried by game wardens in the same way they are done in the US. When you talk to game wardens, that by the way, are in the vehicle with you the entire hunt, they will tell you exactly what is happening to the populations with great precision.  They also have extensive knowledge of migration patters, growth patterns, dangerous game ranges and the ages of the males dominating territories or prides...they've been there for years and seen them on cameras and can ID individual males.  
• age restrictions for hunted animals are ignored so that, for example, lions are killed as juveniles before they can contribute to the genetic pool this is not true for various reasons.  One, if a PH (professional hunter) allows a client to shoot an underage animal, the game warden is there to report it.  PH's can lose their licenses for this...and thus their livelihoods.  Concession owners (licensed by the government) the same.  These folks run these businesses for years.  They have no economic or professional incentive to either dilute the gene pool or risk their livelihoods.  PH's undergo an extensive apprenticeship in these countries and then licensing exams.  As part of the exams, the PH's must be able, in the field, to sex and age animals appropriately.  I think my wife actually said it best after our first Africa hunt a few years ago; "the PH has to be able to read the animals birth certificate in the field before your can shoot".As an example, we viewed the lion I shot for 30 minutes looking at all aspects of anatomy to ensure he was the appropriate age (he was 7); lions in the wild can live 8-10 years...so this guy was up there...he was a batchelor.  The field assessment was spot on the post mortem analysis...this was after 15 days of hunting lion.  On the leopard, one afternoon we had 4 leopards come in on a bait; 3 were female and one was an immature male....no shot...it took 18 days to get a male of sufficient age to take a shot.  The other very practical impact is if an underage animal is shot; it will not be importable to either the US or UK.  There are global standards agencies (CITIES) involved that publish the rules annually on what you can and cannot do.  The various F&W agencies monitor and enforce import requirements.  
• corruption prevents trophy hunting funds from making it to conservation Good lord...facts?  None of course.  Not even going to address this.  

As for economic impacts, I'm not going to refute every bullet point in the paper...I don't have to.  Most are wrong by orders of magnitude.  The employment numbers cited are roughly what South Africa alone employs in hunting; As for the overall econimic $$ impact...SA actual numbers are $341m...your article cited $132m for the entire continent.  I'm just gonna go out on a limb here and say that you and the humane society are not acting in good faith....

Tourism is 10% of most of these countries GDP (per statista and wikipedia), not 2% cited in your article, etc.  Of tourism numbers, most of Africa's tourist come from Africa (80% and are not the source of hunters).  20% of tourism is from the US, Europe, etc.  These people spend orders of magnitude more than the average tourist spends.  Said in business terms, they are the 20 that drives the 80.

As for relative spend, the average hunting package in 2015 was $26,000.  A hunt like mine considerably more.  Check online for photo safaries....these are generally under $5k.  As for overall economic impacts to the region, you get two views...one, just the absolute number in South Africa is larger than cited by the human society for the continent ...and two, ~100% of the economic impact of hunting goes to rural communities.  So when you look at the GDP of the country, the tourism or hunting numbers will not dominate the economy...the GDP of any country is focused in it's cities.  In the US, 88% of the GDP is in 359 cities/towns.  Rural GDP accounts for 12% of overall GDP in the US (per Statista)....employment follows.  Africa GDP is even more concentrated in the big cities.  So the hunting jobs created are a very large percentage of the total jobs in the rural areas where unemployment runs over 50% (SA total unemployment is 32%). 

At a human and personal level, what damn difference does it make if it's 20% of jobs or 5% of jobs.  It's jobs and food for people that otherwise have none.  When was the last time you were in Africa face to face with a malnourished child? I've been going their for nearly 25 years...working, building AIDS orphanages and schools, other charity work...it's awfully damn easy for a smug fat-ass American to set around with a full belly and look down on some one else's choice of how to make a living. 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2351989418302336

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/329837260_The_economic_impact_of_trophy_hunting_in_the_south_African_wildlife_industry

 

 

Don't give me the charity BS.  Indiscriminate killing has nothing to do with charity.  All you have done is kill exotic animals, some of which are endangered species.  You are killing purely for some self serving form of pleasure.  Nothing more.

Your net effect is little better than that of a poacher.

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

3 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

Don't give me the charity BS.  Indiscriminate killing has nothing to do with charity.  All you have done is kill exotic animals, some of which are endangered species.  You are killing purely for some self serving form of pleasure.  Nothing more.

Your net effect is little better than that of a poacher.

Good job avoiding the substance of JT's response to your unreliable source.