50 Day Africa Hunt

[japantiger 4,051]

1 hour ago, abw0004 said:

Oh no.  What I mean, is you can take one elephant.  You can either receive $45,000 once (because after that the elephant is dead), or be a staple in reoccurring safaris that cost up to $1,500 per night.  African Elephants live up to 70 years.  That is where you see the money add up.  30 days of safaris is your breakeven point for that elephant assuming only one person per safari (usually 10 - 12 guests per safari).

Two points on photo safaris.  Hunting and photo safaris don't happen in the same place for obvious reasons.  So hunting isn't taking away from the photo industries revenues.  The places where you hunt elephants are places tourists don't go for obvious reasons; this type of hunting happens in places that are frankly quite dangerous and out of the way.  I have done both by the way...my first safari was a photo safari 20 years ago. 

2nd, with growing elephant populations, culling .3% of the populations doesn't cost the economy anything.  Let's say for the sake of argument thought that you were running a photo safari next to a hunting safari (I would suggest a kevlar helmet and plate carrier for you photo buffs ).  The Elephant I shot was part of a larger group of elephants that moves across the Botswana and Namibia border near Kauhdum Park and again this elephant population is growing.  So even in that extreme unlikely scenario...no impact on photo safari dollars. 

[abw0004 10,109]

26 minutes ago, japantiger said:

There are over 400,000 African elephants....What you are actually referencing is there are approx 45,000 Asian elephants.  In the hunting states, Elephant populations are growing.  As I have cited specific country examples above from SA and Namibia.  Botswana ended their ban on Elephant hunting 2 years ago as well...the Okavango delta was being overrun by elephants and they were destroying all the other habitat.    Very specifically, elephant populations in Namibia are growing 8-10% per year; with resulting harvests in the .3% range.  For example, Namibia hasn't changed their quotas (90 for the country) in nearly 20 years.  

As for what animals hunters "go for"....I can cite the law and my own personal experience that refutes your assertion...the elephant I shot was estimated at 58 years old...ancient for an elephant in the wild.  The lion 7; the average for a wild lion.  The buffalo was over 10, etc.

Ah, Cecil...I'm so glad you brought Cecil up.  Cecil was not "illegally poached".  Cecil was an old bachelor lion (aged 13); not a breeding lion;  perfect candidate for hunting.  He had been cast out of the pride and was living outside the game park on hunting land.  Like all old bachelor lions he was suffering from malnutrition and wouldn't have lasted much longer either just thru starvation or being killed by other game (likely hyena's).  When he was "autopsied", all he had in his stomach was some porcupine quills.  He was legally hunted and wounded by the hunter...in this case, a bow hunter.  The hunter then hunted Cecil for 2 days (I think it was 2) which is what you should do...if you wound an animal it is incumbent on you to follow up.  

I personally wouldn't use a bow on dangerous game; but it's legal in some countries just not my cup of tea.

I may not have been specific enough and that is my fault.  The African elephants have been divided up into different sub-species.  African forest elephant (Loxodonta cyclotis) is now listed as Critically Endangered and the African savanna elephant (Loxodonta africana) as Endangered on the IUCN Red List of Threatened Species™. Before 2021, African elephants were treated as a single species, listed as Vulnerable; this is the first time the two species have been assessed separately for the IUCN Red List.  The number of African forest elephants fell by more than 86% over a period of 31 years, while the population of African savanna elephants decreased by at least 60% over the last 50 years.

Your argument in the first paragraph is misleading.  Elephants are not overrunning farm land due to overpopulation, but more due to habitat loss.  Elephants have no where else to go.  This is mainly due to the palm oil plantations cropping up.

Regarding Cecil, you forgot to mention one key point.  Cecil was baited out of the protected Hwange National Park sanctuary.  This in itself is illegal.  

8 minutes ago, japantiger said:

Two points on photo safaris.  Hunting and photo safaris don't happen in the same place for obvious reasons.  So hunting isn't taking away from the photo industries revenues.  The places where you hunt elephants are places tourists don't go for obvious reasons; this type of hunting happens in places that are frankly quite dangerous and out of the way.  I have done both by the way...my first safari was a photo safari 20 years ago. 

2nd, with growing elephant populations, culling .3% of the populations doesn't cost the economy anything.  Let's say for the sake of argument thought that you were running a photo safari next to a hunting safari (I would suggest a kevlar helmet and plate carrier for you photo buffs ).  The Elephant I shot was part of a larger group of elephants that moves across the Botswana and Namibia border near Kauhdum Park and again this elephant population is growing.  So even in that extreme unlikely scenario...no impact on photo safari dollars. 

The point I am making is if you make all of it photo safaris.  It would be much more lucrative.  If you completely remove big game hunting it would bring more money to they people that actually live there, and not the companies domiciled elsewhere.  Most of the money does not reach the rural communities with big game hunting and the issue is not just here.  Another interest of mine is climbing Mount Everest and the Sherpas see almost none of the $40,000 fee each climber is to pay for the chance to summit due to the foreign companies pocketing most of the money.

Edited December 5, 2022 by abw0004

[japantiger 4,051]

2 minutes ago, abw0004 said:

I may not have been specific enough and that is my fault.  The African elephants have been divided up into different sub-species.  African forest elephant (Loxodonta cyclotis) is now listed as Critically Endangered and the African savanna elephant (Loxodonta africana) as Endangered on the IUCN Red List of Threatened Species™. Before 2021, African elephants were treated as a single species, listed as Vulnerable; this is the first time the two species have been assessed separately for the IUCN Red List.  The number of African forest elephants fell by more than 86% over a period of 31 years, while the population of African savanna elephants decreased by at least 60% over the last 50 years.

Your argument in the first paragraph is misleading.  Elephants are not overrunning farm land due to overpopulation, but more due to habitat loss.  Elephants have no where else to go.  This is mainly due to the palm oil plantations cropping up.

Regarding Cecil, you forgot to mention one key point.  Cecil was baited out of the protected Hwange National Park sanctuary.  This in itself is illegal.  

The point I am making is if you make all of it photo safaris.  It would be much more lucrative.  If you completely remove big game hunting it would bring more money to they people that actually live there, and not the companies domiciled elsewhere.  Most of the money does not reach the rural communities with big game hunting and the issue is not just here.  Another interest of mine is climbing Mount Everest and the Sherpas see almost none of the $40,000 fee each climber is to pay for the chance to summit due to the foreign companies pocketing most of the money.

On elephants, the numbers are the numbers...per your WWF...you cited 45k...that's off one order of magnitude.  

I didn't say elephants were overrunning farm land.  They were overrunning animal habitat in the Okavango delta of Botswana.  That is why Botswana reversed their hunting ban on elephants.  The same thing is happening on the other side of the Okavango in Namibia as well...but Namibia hasn't changed their quota's... 

Cecil was not "baited" out of the park.  Lions have territories.  His was on hunting land...he had been cast out of the pride.  If lion hunting was that easy, it wouldn't be as expensive and hard as it is.  

[abw0004 10,109]

10 minutes ago, japantiger said:

On elephants, the numbers are the numbers...per your WWF...you cited 45k...that's off one order of magnitude.  

I didn't say elephants were overrunning farm land.  They were overrunning animal habitat in the Okavango delta of Botswana.  That is why Botswana reversed their hunting ban on elephants.  The same thing is happening on the other side of the Okavango in Namibia as well...but Namibia hasn't changed their quota's... 

Cecil was not "baited" out of the park.  Lions have territories.  His was on hunting land...he had been cast out of the pride.  If lion hunting was that easy, it wouldn't be as expensive and hard as it is.  

There are different estimates on how many elephants are left, but in the grand scheme of how many there used to be (populations are down 86%), I think you can agree it is a fraction.  Same with lions, down from an estimated 200,000 continent-wide a century ago to about 20,000 today.

Whether it is farm land, or other animal habitat land, is semantics.  The fact of the matter is why they are there in the first place and it isn't due to overpopulation.  It is habitat loss.

Regarding Cecil, I am not sure what to tell you.  The chain of events can be easily found using a Google search.  Every source says he was baited out of the park.  I checked before I posted to be sure.

Edited December 5, 2022 by abw0004

[japantiger 4,051]

2 minutes ago, japantiger said:

On elephants, the numbers are the numbers...per your WWF...you cited 45k...that's off one order of magnitude.  

I didn't say elephants were overrunning farm land.  I said specifically they were overrunning animal habitat in the Okavango delta of Botswana.  That is why Botswana reversed their hunting ban on elephants.  The same thing is happening on the other side of the Okavango in Namibia as well...but Namibia hasn't changed their quota's... 

Cecil was not "baited" out of the park.  Lions have territories.  His was on hunting land...he had been cast out of the pride.  If lion hunting was that easy, it wouldn't be as expensive and hard as it is.  

Let out a response on your photo safari assertion...

Two points: you're not going to get people into these areas...I took long flights on small planes to get into these areas.  A single shuttle flight from Lusaka to the hunting area was $8,000.   Facilities are spartan.  2nd point, you guys keep asserting that the $$ don't go to the local community.  Government contracts require a percent of the turnover from the concession goes to the local community.  In SA it was 17%; same in Zambia and they were asking it be raised to 25% for the next round of leases.  This is in addition to the jobs created and food from the hunts.  You guys are grossly misinformed on this point.  

 

[japantiger 4,051]

19 minutes ago, abw0004 said:

There are different estimates on how many elephants are left, but in the grand scheme of how many there used to be (populations are down 86%), I think you can agree it is a fraction.  Same with lions, down from an estimated 200,000 continent-wide a century ago to about 20,000 today.

Whether it is farm land, or other animal habitat land, is semantics.  The fact of the matter is why they are there in the first place and it isn't due to overpopulation.  It is habitat loss.

Regarding Cecil, I am not sure what to tell you.  The chain of events can be easily found using a Google search.  Every source says he was baited out of the park.  I checked before I posted to be sure.

I used WWF numbers on elephants...it's your source not mine. 

No, it's not semantics...you make claims that there aren't enough elephants.  Botswana just reinstituted hunting because there are too many and they are destroying the Okavango delta.  It's a factual argument.  The same in Namibia. etc....populations are far outgrowing the game quotas.  

I notice none of you have mentioned what your anti hunting organizations say are the real reason populations are threatened in places... poaching. 
 

As for Cecil, yes, the chain of events can be easily found (see quote below).  Cecil lived on hunting land.  He was chased off the reserve by the younger stronger lions which is what happens to post breeding males...life is tough and then there's just the circumstances of the hunt"

"On 1 July 2015, an elderly 13-year-old black-maned lion, anthropomorphised by the name of Cecil, 
was legally shot but wounded in 
an area outside Hwange National 
Park in Zimbabwe. The hunter 
was an American, Dr Walter Palmer, using a bow under the guidance of professional hunter Theo Bronkhorst. 
The lion was tracked and despatched 11 hours later. Dr Palmer had a permit 
to hunt a lion and was not charged with any crime. It was, in hunting terms, a non-event; nevertheless 
the press got hold of the story and 
it went viral.

A legal, regulated hunt. No charges filed...no violations of the clear law on this point.

I get it you guys don't like hunting...don't do it; or better yet, go over there and actually see what's happening on the ground.   

 

Edited December 5, 2022 by japantiger

[abw0004 10,109]

2 minutes ago, japantiger said:

I used WWF numbers on elephants...it's your source not mine. 

No, it's not semantics...you make claims that there aren't enough elephants.  Botswana just reinstituted hunting because there are too many and they are destroying the Okavango delta.  It's a factual argument.  The same in Namibia. etc....populations are far outgrowing the game quotas.  

I notice none of you have mentioned what your anti hunting organizations say are the real reason populations are threatened in places... poaching. 
 

As for Cecil, yes, the chain of events can be easily found.  Cecil lived on hunting land.  He was chased off the reserve by the younger stronger lions which is what happens to post breeding males...life is tough and then there's just the circumstances of the hunt"

"On 1 July 2015, an elderly 13-year-old black-maned lion, anthropomorphised by the name of Cecil, 
was legally shot but wounded in 
an area outside Hwange National 
Park in Zimbabwe. The hunter 
was an American, Dr Walter Palmer, using a bow under the guidance of professional hunter Theo Bronkhorst. 
The lion was tracked and despatched 11 hours later. Dr Palmer had a permit 
to hunt a lion and was not charged with any crime. It was, in hunting terms, a non-event; nevertheless 
the press got hold of the story and 
it went viral.

A legal, regulated hunt. No charges filed...no violations of the clear law on this point.

I get it you guys don't like hunting...don't do it; or better yet, go over there and actually see what's happening on the ground.   

 

Where have I used WWF quotes?  You are confusing me with icanthearyou.

I am making claims there are not enough elephants.  14% of the population remains and the reason they are going into other territories is because they are being pushed out due to habitat loss.  I even gave you sources, again not WWF (even though there is nothing wrong with that organization).

Regarding Cecil, go look on Google.  Palmer's crew tied a dead animal to a car and drove out of Hwange National 
Park, which is illegal.  They then tried to make it look legal, which is also why his guides were arrested.  Palmer has done this before in killing a bear in Yellowstone and then dragging it out of the park to claim it was legal.

I don't hunt, no.  I don't care if you hunt either.  I just don't like it when people use reasons that hunting certain endangered animals is helping the population.

[japantiger 4,051]

1 hour ago, abw0004 said:

Where have I used WWF quotes?  You are confusing me with icanthearyou.

I am making claims there are not enough elephants.  14% of the population remains and the reason they are going into other territories is because they are being pushed out due to habitat loss.  I even gave you sources, again not WWF (even though there is nothing wrong with that organization).

Regarding Cecil, go look on Google.  Palmer's crew tied a dead animal to a car and drove out of Hwange National 
Park, which is illegal.  They then tried to make it look legal, which is also why his guides were arrested.  Palmer has done this before in killing a bear in Yellowstone and then dragging it out of the park to claim it was legal.

I don't hunt, no.  I don't care if you hunt either.  I just don't like it when people use reasons that hunting certain endangered animals is helping the population.

The numbers you are using are WWF numbers...you may not know it

There are over 400k elephants.  I don't know how many elephants their used to be and neither do the people claiming it used to be whatever it was.  No one was counting them back then.  Were there more; certainly.  Are the ones in the regulated hunting countries now growing, absolutely.  Are they growing a lot faster than the take from hunting, absolutely.  So we'll just continue hunting where it makes sense and let the process work.  

If you want to do some good; start complaining about poaching and get involved in anti poaching efforts.  The one thing you are critisizing is actually doing some good.  

Cecil...here's Nat Geo's take...I'll use them as an honest broker...they're not exactly rabid hunting fans.  It would seem, folks aren't telling the truth.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/wildlife-watch-cecil-lion-hunter-charges-dropped

 

 

[icanthearyou 4,462]

2 hours ago, japantiger said:

Cecil...here's Nat Geo's take...I'll use them as an honest broker...they're not exactly rabid hunting fans.  It would seem, folks aren't telling the truth.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/wildlife-watch-cecil-lion-hunter-charges-dropped

Did you read the article.  It is not exactly exonerating.  Are you aware that Dr. Palmer, the man who killed Cecil has been convicted of violating hunting laws in Minnesota?

This crap isn't hunting.  This is baiting and murdering for no other reason than some personal blood lust.

[japantiger 4,051]

8 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

Did you read the article.  It is not exactly exonerating.  Are you aware that Dr. Palmer, the man who killed Cecil has been convicted of violating hunting laws in Minnesota?

This crap isn't hunting.  This is baiting and murdering for no other reason than some personal blood lust.

Yep, read the article.  All charges dropped.  No sanctions...so it would seem the "crime" you guys allege didn't happen.  Just because you name a lion, doesn't make it a Disney character and doesn't hide it from the realities of being a lion.  He was ancient, in a regulated hunting area, headed for destruction and met his end from something other than malnutrition or being eaten alive by other animals.  

So now we're back to "it's not hunting"...wow, you have trouble staying on message.

Cecil is all a side show anyway.  I'm sure all you guys are strict vegetarians...

[icanthearyou 4,462]

8 minutes ago, japantiger said:

Yep, read the article.  All charges dropped.  No sanctions...so it would seem the "crime" you guys allege didn't happen.  Just because you name a lion, doesn't make it a Disney character and doesn't hide it from the realities of being a lion.  He was ancient, in a regulated hunting area, headed for destruction and met his end from something other than malnutrition or being eaten alive by other animals.  

So now we're back to "it's not hunting"...wow, you have trouble staying on message.

Cecil is all a side show anyway.  I'm sure all you guys are strict vegetarians...

Now, you are just lying.

[japantiger 4,051]

3 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

Now, you are just lying.

The title of the article is charges dropped....and they waited until the last paragraph of the article to say it...so, pretty sure I'm not.  But hey, we know words don't mean what they used to...right...

Hey, how about you guys just go annoy someone else.  I'm gonna post some more photos.   

Edited December 6, 2022 by japantiger

[icanthearyou 4,462]

Just now, japantiger said:

The title of the article is charges dropped....and they waited until the last paragraph of the article to say it...so, pretty sure I'm not.  But hey, we know words don't mean what they used to...

Hey, how about you guys just go annoy someone else.  I'm gonna post some more photos.   

If you do not want comments then,,, don't post anything.  Otherwise, I will continue to comment.

Sorry you do not like it.

[japantiger 4,051]

This one you need to have the sound on.  On the first night in Limpopo the lions let us know they were there.

 

 

[japantiger 4,051]

In Namibia....the view from just outside the camp...10 second exposure.

Edited December 6, 2022 by japantiger

[japantiger 4,051]

The Luangwa River ... dry season.  

 

Daily occurrences watching the big herds move across the river ... 

 

 

[japantiger 4,051]

A great bushbuck

[japantiger 4,051]

Hippo backstrap...it weighed about 150 pounds.  Good eating...

[japantiger 4,051]

Waterbuck

[abw0004 10,109]

10 hours ago, japantiger said:

Yep, read the article.  All charges dropped.  No sanctions...so it would seem the "crime" you guys allege didn't happen.  Just because you name a lion, doesn't make it a Disney character and doesn't hide it from the realities of being a lion.  He was ancient, in a regulated hunting area, headed for destruction and met his end from something other than malnutrition or being eaten alive by other animals.  

So now we're back to "it's not hunting"...wow, you have trouble staying on message.

Cecil is all a side show anyway.  I'm sure all you guys are strict vegetarians...

So a few things.  Zimbabwe is a corrupt country.  They have a corruption scale of 20 out of 100, with 0 being the most corrupt on the scale.  They are also the 26th poorest country in the world.  So yes it would be suicide for the country not to drop the charges.  They need the money and if they convict, they will lose all of that future money because more people will be afraid they will be thrown in jail.  It goes back to my original statement with people of wealth taking advantage of poor countries and exploiting their resources.  Your main argument is these countries allow this so it should be okay when these are very poor countries.

And again, Cecil was not in a regulated hunting area.  He was illegally baited out of a protected reserve with an animal carcass tied to a car.

As far as sanctions, in July of 2015 the UN council passed a resolution in regard to Cecil's poaching.  Not only that but Delta, British Airways, Lufthansa, and South African Airways all banned flying big game trophies on their airlines.

I know this was not directed at me, but no I am not a vegetarian.  I eat all meats except Veal or endangered animals.  I doesn't bother me that you hunt either.  Remember my entire family hunts and I used to deep sea fish until I had a change of heart once I got into the aquarium hobby.

[I_M4_AU 7,783]

1 hour ago, abw0004 said:

Zimbabwe is a corrupt country

I believe japantiger was in Namibia and he did things legally.  Zimbabwe is, as you say, corrupt and not a good comparison to Namibia.

As a financial consultant would you encourage your clients to *invest* in the Zimbabwe currency?  It is totally worthless for a good reason.

 

[japantiger 4,051]

Zimbabwe, beautiful country.  Wonderful people.  The fishing on the Zambezi is amazing...you get to dodge hippo's while doing it.

Your statement actually says he was not in the park...so you made my point for me.  And I think you have a lot to learn about cats (or other animals) and their ranges if you think you can "direct or bait them out of" an area to where you want them.  And there is no law on anyone's books called "illegally baiting them out"....this is a made up term because some foreigner named a lion.

As for the airlines and their sanctions...they also just made us go thru a period of needlessly wearing masks for 2 years well past the point where their effectiveness was disproven.  I wouldn't use them as an authority on anything other than getting planes from point a to point b.  I love it when foreigners impose things on African countries that they don't want...we used to have a name for that...what was it...oh yeah, colonialism.  Imagine African nations imposing sanctions on a US industry....but hey, as long as we're doing it it's ok isn't it.

Sorry to paint you with the same brush on being anti-hunting....that was my mistake.  

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

@abw0004 @japantiger Now this is what I call a well-reasoned, civil debate! I wish the children over at the political forum would take note!

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

On 12/6/2022 at 9:23 AM, japantiger said:

 

 

How is the fishing there? Live or artificial? Those vampire fangs resemble a speckled trout on steroids.

[abw0004 10,109]

2 hours ago, NolaAuTiger said:

@abw0004 @japantiger Now this is what I call a well-reasoned, civil debate! I wish the children over at the political forum would take note!

Absolutely.  I hope Japan knows I respect him and even though I don't agree with his choices (he probably wouldn't agree with all of mine) that doesn't mean I do not like him.  In the end we are all still a part of the Auburn Family.