Education Department Opens Federal Civil Rights Investigation Into a Texas School District's Banning of LGBTQ Books

[homersapien 11,363]

2 hours ago, I_M4_AU said:

For the kids who believe they are *different* at an early age, the parents are the ones to talk to about it.  The schools have taken on rolls that they should not.  The parent should know more that the schools about their own children and if the school stumbles on some information, the parent should be notified.  No school should keep any gender confusion from the parents, but it happens.

Right.  All kids have such parents.

But it's not just the homosexual kids who need to be educated, it's the heterosexual kids too.  All kids need appropriate sex education - which might include the fact some of them are homosexual - which is the whole point. pr at least one of them.

What the argument should be about is how sex education should be accomplished - what is appropriate and at what age. (Having superintendents arbitrarily banning books from the school library is not an example of what is appropriate.) 

It's interesting to note that other countries are - or have - addressed this also. 

(Google "sex education in Europe")

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 21, 2022 by homersapien

[Leftfield 2,593]

27 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

To learn the core subjects. So, who determines what is best for the child?

Well, by sending them to school, you've at least admitted that learning the core subjects is what's best for the child. Parents depend on schools for that, at least, so I think it's disingenuous to claim schools have nothing to do with what's best for children.

You're also neglecting kids for which the school library may be their only means of getting a book. Not every child can afford to buy books. They may not have access to a public library - as you know, libraries aren't nearly as ubiquitous as they once were. 

As homer mentioned, kids know pretty early if they're homosexual. Of the gay people I've discussed it with, everyone developed their first crushes in early elementary school, just like the vast majority of heterosexual people. Is there some reason there shouldn't be material in the library that tells them homosexuality is a perfectly normal part of life?

I'm not saying there need to be books getting into the lurid details of sexual relationships, particularly at younger ages, but that's not what they're talking about in Texas. They're talking about removing anything mentioning LGBTQ at all. 

 

Edited December 21, 2022 by Leftfield

[I_M4_AU 7,799]

24 minutes ago, homersapien said:

what is appropriate at what age

This is the whole argument.  K-3 is too early.

[homersapien 11,363]

I think part of the problem is how the very idea of sex education - of any sort - is being conflated with the idea that kids are being "groomed" or otherwise influenced into making personal choices before they are old enough to be self-aware or otherwise mature enough to think critically about their self identification.

The resulting hysterical reaction over this false - or at least unproven - presumption is what leads to political leaders to propose regressive legislation for political purposes.

What we all need to do is to back out and examine the question of how appropriate is a given level of sex education at a given academic level, first examining the proposition that any level of sex education is appropriate, which history and data suggests it is.

That's a different discussion than (for example) if/when "transgenderism" is introduced.

As usual, a good place to start would be with research.

Again I suggest we look into European countries, since they are peer states.  For example:

In the Netherlands, sex education starts as early as age four, with kids learning about basic ideas like sexuality, appropriate touching, and intimacy. At age eight, kids progress to learning about gender stereotypes, and at age 11 an introduction to contraception and sexual identity begins.

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=sex+education+in+Europe

Maybe it is at least possible to address this professionally instead of religiously/emotionally in this country? 

(Or maybe not.)

But where we are now - without a basis of consensus - or even facts we are wasting our time arguing about it.

Read the Executive summary in the following document to get a sense of what I am talking about:

https://op.europa.eu/en/publication-detail/-/publication/5724b7d8-764f-11eb-9ac9-01aa75ed71a1

Other articles on the subject below.   (Most of which I haven't read, since I don't really have a dog in this fight other than hoping for a more civil and progressive society.)

https://europeanacademyofreligionandsociety.com/news/sexual-education-in-europe/

https://www.icmec.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/WHOStandards-for-Sexuality-Ed-in-Europe.pdf

https://www.rand.org/pubs/external_publications/EP68532.html

How Europe Proves That U.S. Sex Education Sucks

(Couldn't help but show the title on that last one. )

 

 

[homersapien 11,363]

26 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

This is the whole argument.  K-3 is too early.

Depends on what is being introduced.  I am no expert in the field.

But by the third grade, a child is what, about 9 years old? 

That seems pretty advanced to me.  (Probably old enough to experience "penis anxiety" )

Some countries start basic sex education at age 4.

 

Edited December 21, 2022 by homersapien

[I_M4_AU 7,799]

25 minutes ago, Leftfield said:

As homer mentioned, kids know pretty early if they're homosexual. Of the gay people I've discussed it with, everyone developed their first crushes in early elementary school, just like the vast majority of heterosexual people. Is there some reason there shouldn't be material in the library that tells them homosexuality is a perfectly normal part of life?

I'm not saying there need to be books getting into the lurid details of sexual relationships, particularly at younger ages, but that's not what they're talking about in Texas. They're talking about removing anything mentioning LGBTQ at all. 

So, how young is young?  Even if a person has a *crush* early in elementary school doesn’t mean they are gay.  To confuse normal likings for a person as being gay because you were told that is what you might be by a gender studies major doesn’t make it so.  It can just confuse a vulnerable kid.  What is the hurry in deciding if you are gay, straight or gender dysphoria?

The point I am trying to make is it should be left up to the parents to handle without outside influence from a state run school.  The school has no business in teaching any sex related material in K—3.  The kids are too young to process that information.

[I_M4_AU 7,799]

49 minutes ago, CoffeeTiger said:

So we are clear...your opinion is that because Acton Middle School cannot teach or advocate for Christianity and that the bible is not taught in any school curriculum or classroom, that you would 100% support these Christian books I just listed being removed and banned from the Library because they cover topics that are not taught in the school..Am I correct? 

I would take that trade.  Religion should be taught at home.

[homersapien 11,363]

2 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

The point I am trying to make is it should be left up to the parents to handle without outside influence from a state run school.  The school has no business in teaching any sex related material in K—3.  The kids are too young to process that information.

Well, if one assumes that appropriate sex education addresses many of the problems in society - such as unwanted pregnancies and STDs (which I think is proven) and assuming that most parents either ignore the subject or do an inadequate job (a good assumption) that is just wrong.

Our public school system was established for the general benefit of our society. 

[homersapien 11,363]

3 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

I would take that trade.  Religion should be taught at home.

That's already the case.  (Or at least it's supposed to be, in public or state supported schools.)

[I_M4_AU 7,799]

3 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Well, if one assumes that appropriate sex education addresses many of the problems in society - such as unwanted pregnancies and STDs (which I think is proven) and assuming that most parents either ignore the subject or do an inadequate job (a good assumption) that is just wrong.

Our public school system was established for the general benefit of our society. 

Are our kids in danger of contracting STDs at 9 years old?  How about unwanted pregnancies?  I understand 10 is about the earliest and that was an unusual arrangement with her mother and boy friend.  K-3 is too early IMO.

[Leftfield 2,593]

4 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

So, how young is young?  Even if a person has a *crush* early in elementary school doesn’t mean they are gay. 

You are really showing your ignorance and fear of this.

Stop being obtuse about the word crush. You know full well what I'm talking about. There are plenty of boys I liked, but I never "liked" any of them. You're throwing confusion in there where none exists, except perhaps for kids who "like" both boys and girls.

8 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

To confuse normal likings for a person as being gay because you were told that is what you might be by a gender studies major doesn’t make it so. 

What a load of crap. Not a single gay person I've talked to ever claimed they were gay because someone told them they were. Even if it were to happen, do you really think the kid wouldn't eventually figure it out?

9 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

What is the hurry in deciding if you are gay, straight or gender dysphoria?

One more time: SEXUAL ORIENTATION AND IDENTITY ARE NOT DECISIONS!!!!

That clear enough?

11 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

The point I am trying to make is it should be left up to the parents to handle without outside influence from a state run school.  The school has no business in teaching any sex related material in K—3.  The kids are too young to process that information.

Any point you try to make gets swallowed by your obvious fear and lack of understanding on this issue. Everyone here has agreed that you don't teach sex education in K-3, but you keep conflating it with orientation and identity. No, not everything involved with that needs to be part of the curriculum at K-3, either, but it's irresponsible to remove the ability for a teacher to at least be able to address the issue if it comes up, and you don't remove books simply because they represent people you don't agree with.

[homersapien 11,363]

41 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

Are our kids in danger of contracting STDs at 9 years old?  How about unwanted pregnancies?  I understand 10 is about the earliest and that was an unusual arrangement with her mother and boy friend.  K-3 is too early IMO.

You shouldn't conflate generalized statements - in this case, about the value of appropriate sex education in schools - with specific conclusions, as you construed. 

It makes you look disingenuous.  (And surely, you're not that, are you. )

But to answer your questions directly, I don't know.  Like I said I am not expert. (And neither is Ron DeSantis.)

And let's make note I was responding to:  The school has no business in teaching any sex related material in K—3.  The kids are too young to process that information.    Which is ignorant BS.

 

Edited December 21, 2022 by homersapien

[homersapien 11,363]

21 minutes ago, Leftfield said:

obvious fear and lack of understanding

Common "companions".

[CoffeeTiger 5,099]

54 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

I would take that trade.  Religion should be taught at home.

interesting. You're coming in with the hot takes fast and furious today, aren't you? 

 

I'll just say I wouldn't take that trade. school children should have easy access to religious books if they want to read them and they should have easy access to age appropriate books with lgbtq themes if they want them. Parents can teach their beliefs and values at home, but shouldn't be able to stop their kids from learning or experiencing other things and idea on their own if they want. 

Edited December 21, 2022 by CoffeeTiger

[homersapien 11,363]

2 hours ago, Leftfield said:

 Everyone here has agreed that you don't teach sex education in K-3, but you keep conflating it with orientation and identity. No, not everything involved with that needs to be part of the curriculum at K-3, either, but it's irresponsible to remove the ability for a teacher to at least be able to address the issue if it comes up, and you don't remove books simply because they represent people you don't agree with.

Well said and thank you.

It's an inherently complex topic.  Factor in a belief of  "grooming/influencing" in public schools and it's  hopeless.

Edited December 22, 2022 by homersapien

[wdefromtx 3,159]

If a parent is worried about grooming/influencing their kids they need to get them off social media. This applies to just about any subject...not just sexual orientation. 

[I_M4_AU 7,799]

33 minutes ago, Leftfield said:

Stop being obtuse about the word crush. You know full well what I'm talking about. There are plenty of boys I liked, but I never "liked" any of them. You're throwing confusion in there where none exists, except perhaps for kids who "like" both boys and girls.

I guess you never liked one of you friends more than another, right?  At a young age, say 4-9, you don’t think an adult in your life could have influenced your thinking in the manner of sexuality?  Talk about obtuse.  People used to be arrested for such things, now it sex education.

38 minutes ago, Leftfield said:

Even if it were to happen, do you really think the kid wouldn't eventually figure it out?

You do realize that there are a lot of girls that have transitioned to male because they were lead to believe it would solve all their problems only to realize it doesn’t and are now in the process of de-transitioning?  Sometimes the kids realize what they are after some irreversible act has been performed on them.  The ones that de-transition were probably gay/lesbian and were not given the time to figure it out on their own.  Do you deny thing like this happen.  What would be wrong with allowing the child to figure it out without adult intervention.

44 minutes ago, Leftfield said:

One more time: SEXUAL ORIENTATION AND IDENTITY ARE NOT DECISIONS!!!!

I know this, but a kid going through this process will question themselves until they *decide* to come out as what ever they are.  Is this a foreign concept to you?

 

47 minutes ago, Leftfield said:

Any point you try to make gets swallowed by your obvious fear and lack of understanding on this issue. Everyone here has agreed that you don't teach sex education in K-3, but you keep conflating it with orientation and identity. No, not everything involved with that needs to be part of the curriculum at K-3, either, but it's irresponsible to remove the ability for a teacher to at least be able to address the issue if it comes up, and you don't remove books simply because they represent people you don't agree with.

Not every one has agreed about sex education being taught in K-3, people still bring up the *don’t say gay* bill which shows they don’t agree.  If the subject comes up the teacher should redirect the question to the student’s parents.  The teacher has no right, responsibility or training to address the subject. It is as simple as that.

You remove books because they are not appropriate to be allowed in the library.  

[I_M4_AU 7,799]

1 hour ago, homersapien said:

1 hour ago, I_M4_AU said:

The point I am trying to make is it should be left up to the parents to handle without outside influence from a state run school.  The school has no business in teaching any sex related material in K—3.  The kids are too young to process that information.

Well, if one assumes that appropriate sex education addresses many of the problems in society - such as unwanted pregnancies and STDs (which I think is proven) and assuming that most parents either ignore the subject or do an inadequate job (a good assumption) that is just wrong.

Our public school system was established for the general benefit of our society. 

I responded, keeping in mind you bolded K-3:  Are our kids in danger of contracting STDs at 9 years old?  How about unwanted pregnancies?  I understand 10 is about the earliest and that was an unusual arrangement with her mother and boy friend.  K-3 is too early IMO.

Then you wrote:

45 minutes ago, homersapien said:

You shouldn't conflate generalized statements - in this case, about the value of sex education in schools - with specific ones. 

It makes you look disingenuous.  (And surely, you're not that, are you. )

You’re just confused.  Age appropriate sex education has been around for awhile.  K-3 is not appropriate to teach sex education.

[icanthearyou 4,462]

Dont wont no books about no gays in my lieberry.  Gays need to get there own lieberry, there own bakers, there own web cite makers.  Role Tied

[I_M4_AU 7,799]

4 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

Dont wont no books about no gays in my lieberry.  Gays need to get there own lieberry, there own bakers, there own web cite makers.  Role Tied

This is the serious political forum, your response is inappropriate.  

[I_M4_AU 7,799]

1 hour ago, homersapien said:

Which is ignorant BS.

Says the man that has had no children of his own.  Gender Dysphoria affects one in 30,000 boys and one in 100,000 girls so we should restructure our education system to address these numbers?  Seriously???

The gay/lesbian community will work things out by the time they are adults.

[homersapien 11,363]

1 hour ago, I_M4_AU said:

Says the man that has had no children of his own.  Gender Dysphoria affects one in 30,000 boys and one in 100,000 girls so we should restructure our education system to address these numbers?  Seriously???

The gay/lesbian community will work things out by the time they are adults.

That's called "begging the question". You're very good at it.

[homersapien 11,363]

1 hour ago, I_M4_AU said:

I responded, keeping in mind you bolded K-3:  Are our kids in danger of contracting STDs at 9 years old?  How about unwanted pregnancies?  I understand 10 is about the earliest and that was an unusual arrangement with her mother and boy friend.  K-3 is too early IMO.

Then you wrote:

You’re just confused.  Age appropriate sex education has been around for awhile.  K-3 is not appropriate to teach sex education.

That's called "moving the goalposts".  The thread topic is about banning books in school libraries.

And teaching "sex education" to children as old as third grade is not inappropriate.

You are the one who is confused, which is not surprising considering your ignorance on the topic.

https://www.montclair.edu/newscenter/2020/12/14/experts-sex-education-should-begin-in-kindergarten/

Experts: Sex Education Should Begin in Kindergarten

First-of-its-kind research shows sex education yields positive outcomes beyond STD and pregnancy prevention

 

https://sexedrescue.com/when-to-start-sex-education/

 

https://raisingchildren.net.au/school-age/development/sexual-development/sex-education-children

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2018/08/the-benefits-of-starting-sex-ed-at-age-4/568225/

 

https://www.heysigmund.com/kid-needs-know-age-age-guide-sex-education/

 

etc.

[Leftfield 2,593]

29 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

I guess you never liked one of you friends more than another, right? 

You....compare that to actually being attracted to someone? Sure I liked some friends more than others. Didn't change the fact I never wanted any boys to "go" with me.

Are you saying that when you liked one of your friends more than others, you were attracted to them? Maybe you're not obtuse. Perhaps you're bi-sexual?

 

35 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

At a young age, say 4-9, you don’t think an adult in your life could have influenced your thinking in the manner of sexuality?  Talk about obtuse.  People used to be arrested for such things, now it sex education.

Of course they could have, for better or for worse. The mistake you make is believing that the majority who teach it are evil and trying to hide it instead of being a good person trying to help. 

42 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

You do realize that there are a lot of girls that have transitioned to male because they were lead to believe it would solve all their problems only to realize it doesn’t and are now in the process of de-transitioning?  Sometimes the kids realize what they are after some irreversible act has been performed on them.  The ones that de-transition were probably gay/lesbian and were not given the time to figure it out on their own.  Do you deny thing like this happen.  What would be wrong with allowing the child to figure it out without adult intervention.

I don't deny things like this happen. I deny they happen often, and I'd be willing to bet they happen far less often than the number of kids who are bullied, persecuted, or otherwise harmed because certain adults feel fit to decide that they shouldn't have access to information that might help them and others understand what they're going through.

As with anything, you're going to have your bad actors with their own agenda (from either side of the issue) that cause harm to a child, whether they mean to or not, and certainly action against those people should be taken when they overstep their bounds. That doesn't mean you remove the ability to deal with the issue completely. 

You continue to show your bias on this when you use terms like "adult intervention" instead of things like "adult guidance." Intervention suggests a person actively working to push their way in to the situation (which may be your intent), whereas guidance comes when a child approaches with questions, or something comes up because of bullying/teasing/etc.

 

54 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

I know this, but a kid going through this process will question themselves until they *decide* to come out as what ever they are.  Is this a foreign concept to you?

The whole point, since you continue to miss it, is that these children shouldn't feel like they should have to "come out." They should be comfortable being who they are, and not have to "decide" to tell everyone. If you take away every mention of them in school, how do you think that makes them feel?

 

56 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

If the subject comes up the teacher should redirect the question to the student’s parents.  The teacher has no right, responsibility or training to address the subject. It is as simple as that.

And what if those parents treat that child like the one I told you about a few weeks ago? You know, the one whose dad threatened to kill him because he's trans? He hasn't killed him yet, but he did hit him last week, according to what he told a mutual friend of my daughter. Do you think that there are more parents that would do this to their children, or more that would push them towards a gender transition at too young an age?

I am all for parents being made aware of what's going on with their child, but that should not include leaving no avenue for that child to be who they are just because their parent can't accept it.

 

2 hours ago, I_M4_AU said:

You remove books because they are not appropriate to be allowed in the library.  

Would this include a book about a family with two mothers or two fathers?

[Leftfield 2,593]

1 hour ago, I_M4_AU said:

The gay/lesbian community will work things out by the time they are adults.

How kind of you.