Difference in Gender and Sex

[homersapien 11,352]

9 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

You think that’s a sound model?

Given our free enterprise, capitalistic system, I can't think of a better one.

Can you?

[TexasTiger 12,800]

8 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Given our free enterprise, capitalistic system, I can't think of a better one.

Can you?

Seems like Finland’s medical establishment did. They took a more thoughtful approach:

The number of patients dispensed opioids in Finland did not change during the escalation of the opioid epidemic in the U.S., but there were changes in the quantity of opioids dispensed per patient. Opioid therapy was typically initiated with weak opioid, the initial dispensed prescription was relatively small, and escalation to strong opioids was rare. A considerable share of patients had been prescribed opioids for chronic non-cancer pain - a type of pain where the risk-benefit ratio of opioids is controversial.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-10788-7

[homersapien 11,352]

16 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

Seems like Finland’s medical establishment did:

The number of patients dispensed opioids in Finland did not change during the escalation of the opioid epidemic in the U.S., but there were changes in the quantity of opioids dispensed per patient. Opioid therapy was typically initiated with weak opioid, the initial dispensed prescription was relatively small, and escalation to strong opioids was rare. A considerable share of patients had been prescribed opioids for chronic non-cancer pain - a type of pain where the risk-benefit ratio of opioids is controversial.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-10788-7

Certainly seems they had a better way of administering opioid use (which is a very specific category).

But I doubt they operate any differently than the model I described regarding other types of drugs. 

Their drugs come from the same places ours do - pharmaceutical manufacturers - and it's the manufacturers who invent the drugs and possess all of the data on efficacy and safety. 

No doubt Finland has a regulatory/approval body, but unless they have an additional, intermediary bureaucracy to market/distribute drugs, I expect their physicians get their information directly from the source, just like ours do. 

But I don't know for sure. I am not familiar with their system. 

 

 

Edited March 21, 2023 by homersapien

[TexasTiger 12,800]

5 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Certainly seems they had a better way of administering opioid use (which is a very specific category).

But I doubt they operate any differently than the model I described regarding other types of drugs. 

Their drugs come from the same places ours do - pharmaceutical manufacturers - and it's the manufacturers who invent the drugs and possess all of the data on efficacy and safety. 

No doubt Finland has a regulatory/approval body, but unless they have an additional, intermediary bureaucracy to market/distribute drugs, I expect their physicians get their information directly from the source, just like ours do. 

But I don't know for sure. I am not familiar with their system. 

 

 

So you’re saying they took the exact same information available to our medical establishment, applied logic, reason and sound judgment and largely avoided excesses leading to negative consequences?

[homersapien 11,352]

14 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

So you’re saying they took the exact same information available to our medical establishment, applied logic, reason and sound judgment and largely avoided excesses leading to negative consequences?

Well, it appears that way from the "Nature" article.

But to be honest, I am not all that familiar with how and why the opioid crisis occurred in this country, nor how Finland's medical establishment operates in general. (Which I thought I said.) 

Do you have another point you are trying to make?

 

[TexasTiger 12,800]

Just now, homersapien said:

Well, it appears that way from the "Nature" article.

But to be honest, I am not all that familiar with how and why the opioid crisis occurred in this country, nor how Finland's medical establishment operates in general. (Which I thought I said.) 

Do you have another point you are trying to make?

 

I think it’s been made.

[homersapien 11,352]

1 minute ago, TexasTiger said:

I think it’s been made.

Well, I missed it.  Care to elucidate?

[TexasTiger 12,800]

2 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Well, I missed it.  Care to elucidate?

If it’s not clear to you, I can’t make it clearer.

[homersapien 11,352]

3 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

If it’s not clear to you, I can’t make it clearer.

That's BS evasion.  I thought better of you.

Are you trying to suggest this is somehow related to what the actual topic of this thread is?

If so, how?

[homersapien 11,352]

If you are trying to make a general comparison between our healthcare system and European systems I agree they are better in terms of (some) outcomes and especially cost.

Is that it?

Edited March 21, 2023 by homersapien

[DKW 86 7,410]

3 hours ago, homersapien said:

What a baseless rant.  Pure conspiratorial nonsense.   

Show me the research regarding the U.S.  Show me some evidence American practitioners are "ignoring" European research reports. Show me some evidence for anything you said regarding U.S. practice.   

Bottom line, this is nothing more than your baseless, hysterical opinion.  

https://www.city-journal.org/yes-europe-is-restricting-gender-affirming-care

https://genderreport.ca/the-swedish-u-turn-on-gender-transitioning/

https://lisaselindavis.substack.com/p/letter-from-finland-and-sweden

Not that you will ever read even one bit of that. 

You are the one, as usual, just ignoring facts and spitting out very tired narratives. Rational, Educated, Scientists are questioning and indeed are reversing course on transitioning minors. That would seem to be an obvious thing after looking at the data. 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11873443/California-teen-sues-doctors-breast-removal-surgery-13-Kaiser-Permanentes-2nd-lawsuit.html

https://www.transgendertrend.com/children-change-minds/

The most recent study in this group, published in 2013, confirms that gender dysphoria does not persist in most children past puberty. Link to research here.

In this Dutch study they identified 127 children who were referred to the Gender Identity clinic in Amsterdam when they were under the age of 12. They then looked to see if these children were still gender dysphoric by the time they reached adolescence at age 15. 47 (37%) of these children had persisted. However 80 (64%) of children had either desisted (52) or were no longer traceable (28). See Figure 1. Since there is only one Gender Identity clinic for children in Holland it can be assumed that the latter no longer required support and so had also desisted.

[creed 1,629]

Yesterday, I just happened to be watching Dr. Phil concerning a hazing incident that resulted in death. He stated that the human frontal lobe does not fully develep until 25-35 years old. This section of the brain is responsible for the ability to foresee/determine future outcomes for current psychological delimmas. In this case discussed it was a fraternity pledge that was asked to drink a 5th of wihiskey in short period of time. He complied and died of acholhol poisioning. He was unable to rationalize the outcome.

So a question. When is the right time for a patient to make a decsion from a gender affirming surgery standpoint?

 

This is from the National Library of Medicine:

The frontal lobes, home to key components of the neural circuitry underlying “executive functions” such as planning, working memory, and impulse control, are among the last areas of the brain to mature; they may not be fully developed until halfway through the third decade of life [2]. This finding has prompted interest in linking stage of neuromaturation to maturity of judgment. Indeed, the promise of a biological explanation for often puzzling adolescent health risk behavior has captured the attention of the media, parents, policymakers, and clinicians alike. Although such research is currently underway, many neuroscientists argue that empirical support for a causal relationship between neuromaturational processes and real-world behavior is currently lacking 

[homersapien 11,352]

On 3/21/2023 at 6:52 PM, DKW 86 said:

https://www.city-journal.org/yes-europe-is-restricting-gender-affirming-care

https://genderreport.ca/the-swedish-u-turn-on-gender-transitioning/

https://lisaselindavis.substack.com/p/letter-from-finland-and-sweden

Not that you will ever read even one bit of that. 

You are the one, as usual, just ignoring facts and spitting out very tired narratives. Rational, Educated, Scientists are questioning and indeed are reversing course on transitioning minors. That would seem to be an obvious thing after looking at the data. 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11873443/California-teen-sues-doctors-breast-removal-surgery-13-Kaiser-Permanentes-2nd-lawsuit.html

https://www.transgendertrend.com/children-change-minds/

The most recent study in this group, published in 2013, confirms that gender dysphoria does not persist in most children past puberty. Link to research here.

In this Dutch study they identified 127 children who were referred to the Gender Identity clinic in Amsterdam when they were under the age of 12. They then looked to see if these children were still gender dysphoric by the time they reached adolescence at age 15. 47 (37%) of these children had persisted. However 80 (64%) of children had either desisted (52) or were no longer traceable (28). See Figure 1. Since there is only one Gender Identity clinic for children in Holland it can be assumed that the latter no longer required support and so had also desisted.

Fine.  

Now do you have any studies suggesting the status of dysphoric therapy in this country?  (Anecdotal evidence is not "data").

Do you have any supporting data that supports the assumption that past practices in these countries and the U.S. were comparable/similar?

You are making assumptions based on evidence in Europe - a place that is widely considered to be far more liberal in such matters than the U.S. - without any direct data on the U.S.  

You may be right.  But for myself, I'd like to see some direct evidence before making such an assumption.

If that's enough to throw you into a hysterical frenzy of making ad hominem attacks on me, that's (obviously) your problem. It doesn't bother me one iota.

Edited March 23, 2023 by homersapien

[AURex 1,983]

On 3/18/2023 at 2:20 AM, TexasTiger said:

I agree. But who is doing that on this thread and where are they doing it in your opinion?

Welp, point out one single woman, one single LGBTQ+ person participating in this thread. It is all men mansplaining, and just like all the male conservatives in state legislatures who are of the opinion that they, men who have zero medical or research or scholarly foundation, are just spitting out their opinions that will become law dictating life limitations and condemnations for LGBTQ+ people.

[TexasTiger 12,800]

26 minutes ago, AURex said:

Welp, point out one single woman, one single LGBTQ+ person participating in this thread. It is all men mansplaining, and just like all the male conservatives in state legislatures who are of the opinion that they, men who have zero medical or research or scholarly foundation, are just spitting out their opinions that will become law dictating life limitations and condemnations for LGBTQ+ people.

Something about this issue seems to scatter your thinking.

[TitanTiger 20,469]

On 3/17/2023 at 10:17 PM, AURex said:

This entire thread is men dictating how people SHOULD live their lives and men's opinions about them. Why do men feel it necessary or even appropriate to compartmentalize others, define them, hate on them.

I lived in SF for 6 years. I met a lot of lesbian, gay, and trans people. Reality is, they are people. They are human beings. As a hetero male married to a hetero woman, we accepted and were accepted by friends and acquaintances of all ilks.

Vilifying people based on view through personal hetero male glasses is repugnant and I might add, totally unChristian.

You seem to be confusing/conflating multiple issues under this catch-all umbrella of buzzwords like "hate", "dictating", "unChristian", "mansplaining" and so on.

First, no one is suggesting that we dictate to grown adults how they should be allowed to live their lives.  To whatever degree there have been restrictions suggested on this or the other thread on trans issues, it has been about minor children and medically appropriate treatments for them.

Second, no one has suggested that LBGT+ people aren't deserving of love and respect.  You seem to believe that the only way to accept and love someone is to affirm and agree with all their views and choices surrounding sexuality and gender.  But this flies in the face of millenia of basic human experience.  The hallmark of being able to love and be kind to someone isn't that one person completely comes around to the other person's way of thinking on a matter, but that despite disagreements, we can still give each other respect and dignity.

Third, where most of the issues surrounding trans people get pushback isn't on the ability for any adult human being to identify, dress, and present however they choose.  The conflict comes where and to what extent this personal choice and belief about oneself should place obligations on the rest of society - whether or how much we should change laws, policies, safety procedures, and so on that are based in biological sex to accommodate this person's self-proclaimed identity.  This isn't hating or dictating anything to anyone.  In fact, it's the reverse.  It's about whether any person's internal sense of self should be able to dictate to everyone else - from laws, to policies, to membership in sex-segregated spaces, to acceptable language, and so on.

Until you can zoom out a bit and stop entangling all of these matters as if they're all the same, you're not going to be able to engage this discussion in a fruitful manner.

[Cardin Drake 1,805]

The clinics catering to this stuff are dead men walking. The lawyers smell blood and the lawsuits are going to put them out of business. The doctors can't defend what they have been doing in a court of law based on peer reviewed science. They've just been shooting from the hip, and lots of careers and reputations are about to be ruined.

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2023/03/20/ex-transgender-teenager-sues-kaiser-permanente-double-mastectomy/#comment-6142869168

Edited March 23, 2023 by Cardin Drake

[icanthearyou 4,462]

On 3/21/2023 at 4:02 PM, TexasTiger said:

So you’re saying they took the exact same information available to our medical establishment, applied logic, reason and sound judgment and largely avoided excesses leading to negative consequences?

Perhaps they did not have drug companies paying kickbacks to doctors for prescribing more and, stronger opiate based drugs?  Perhaps they do more to control the drug distribution companies?

[PUB78 1,354]

https://wng.org/sift/arkansas-restricts-school-bathroom-use-to-biological-sex-1679507762?mkt_tok=NzEwLVFSUi0yMDkAAAGKrXurPRFUQFl5i4ldeEA76Y_OHIIpgwXnSkYOvpo7K5Y36mMyo-RasMY0066NwMaBk4CVS23iTAU6v3CT0371hv9SKNCMn42sFC82ptJPUaq8

[homersapien 11,352]

18 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

Something about this issue seems to scatter your thinking.

Now that's irony.  

[homersapien 11,352]

2 hours ago, PUB78 said:

https://wng.org/sift/arkansas-restricts-school-bathroom-use-to-biological-sex-1679507762?mkt_tok=NzEwLVFSUi0yMDkAAAGKrXurPRFUQFl5i4ldeEA76Y_OHIIpgwXnSkYOvpo7K5Y36mMyo-RasMY0066NwMaBk4CVS23iTAU6v3CT0371hv9SKNCMn42sFC82ptJPUaq8

What a perfect example of legislation that only caters to mindless prejudice, solves no problems and directly harms transexuals.

 

[homersapien 11,352]

5 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

... The conflict comes where and to what extent this personal choice and belief about oneself should place obligations on the rest of society - whether or how much we should change laws, policies, safety procedures, and so on that are based in biological sex to accommodate this person's self-proclaimed identity.  This isn't hating or dictating anything to anyone.  In fact, it's the reverse.  It's about whether any person's internal sense of self should be able to dictate to everyone else - from laws, to policies, to membership in sex-segregated spaces, to acceptable language, and so on...

I don't think many - if any - in the LGBQT community are trying to "dictate" anything.  At most, they are asking for empathetic and fair treatment.

Seems to me that it's the people who oppose - or at least don't understand them - who feel compelled to "dictate" (via legislation).  

Edited March 23, 2023 by homersapien

[TitanTiger 20,469]

22 minutes ago, homersapien said:

I don't think many - if any - in the LGBQT community are trying to "dictate" anything.  At most, they are asking for empathetic and fair treatment.

That's the rub though - what is "empathetic and fair?"  Is it empathetic or fair to compel shelters created for women fleeing domestic and sexual abuse by men to allow intact, biological men to be in that space simply because they believe they are women based on their own internal sense of self?  Is it fair or empathetic to allow a biological male to use inborn physical advantages of being male to compete in women's and girls' sports and beat out biological females for awards, wins and records?  Is it empathetic or fair to allow a biological man access to private spaces where women must be in various stages of undress or nakedness with no respect for their privacy and safety?

If you do believe it's empathetic and fair, I would reply "to whom?"  Certainly not to the natal women and girls in these and other such situations.

 

22 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Seems to me that it's the people who oppose - or at least don't understand them - who feel compelled to "dictate" (via legislation).  

The legislation being proposed or passing is to prevent the erosion of hard won rights and protections for women and girls, and to protect minors from potentially harmful, often irreversible, and woefully under researched and studied medical and pharmacological interventions.  It's not about whether the 30 year old man wishes to transition to female, present as female, take cross-sex hormones and change his name from Jason to Jessica and pronouns to she/her.

[TexasTiger 12,800]

50 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Now that's irony.  

Another concept you fail to grasp.

[homersapien 11,352]

12 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

Another concept you fail to grasp.

Because I'd like to see actual data before making general conclusions on medical/psychiatric patients in the U.S. instead of simply making assumptions based on studies done in other countries?