How does one find Jesus today?

[tiger88 934]

To me most if not all organized religions as a whole are just a mess today. Consumed by the ego. We are good, they are bad and all that good stuff.

Reading the obama thread on the political board showed me yet another radical interpretation of the Bible, one of many. Living in the south has shown me some really nasty ones as well.

It seems as though so many of the differing groups of Christianity are intent on reading exactly what they want into the Bible for their own purposes. A lost soul in the U.S and other countries would have trouble finding unbiased spiritual guidance from whatever sect of Christianity he/she happened upon. Often churches are more like businesses today than houses of healing. Many of those at the top have an agenda that has nothing to do with Jesus or what he taught imo.

When people try to speak for God that is where the trouble comes in, imo. I don't really think anyone knows exactly who/what God is. I believe that there is a higher power that created us that is for sure. What that higher power is I don't know but I often feel as though I connect with it.

Over the years I have become a spiritualist because spirituality doesn't not teach you to try to quantify or understand God. Spiritualists often shy away from using the word God because it has been so tainted by religions over the years. Many non-religious people find themselves cringing when they hear the word because of the contexts they have heard it used in in the past.

I'm no Bible scholar so correct me where I am wrong here. Jesus taught that God is love and to forgive them for they know what what they do. He didn't teach us to pass judgement on others.

Are those correct statements?

[AUfan88 0]

Yep, those would be correct statements. I have to agree with you. Too many people try to use their religious beliefs to act like they are better than everyone. I'll give you an example. A few years ago, one of the doctors that is in the same gastroenterology practice as my dad sent us a Christmas card from his family that basically stated that he and his family had secured their spot in heaven and that my family still had time to bail ourselves out of eternal damnation. If that isn't insulting I don't know what is. I don't think they really took the time to understand what Jesus was saying. Another example of complete ignorance and self-rightousness that I have is that a girl that I went to high school with asked two of my friends that are jewish if jewish people believed that they were going to hell because they didn't believe that Christ was the savior.

[tiger88 934]

I hear you on those examples. I see a lot of that type of stuff from the Southern Baptists around here. To me that is their ego speaking and not their true selves and I try to do what Jesus taught and "forgive them for they know not what they do". It's not always easy when someone is damning you to hell though, lol.

I am one who believes that Jesus was an ordinary person like you and me. Obviously, he had great impact on people and touched many peoples lives or we wouldn't be discussing him so many years later. I believe that he taught about the oneness of all things and that is reflected in some of his teachings I have read about.

I think he was deeply into spirituality but his message has been greatly distorted, misunderstood, and intentionally misrepresented over the years.

I'm not trying to knock Christianity as a whole here I think it is like most or all religions, lots of good intent and I think there is a path to enlightenment through Christianity. I thnnk it is just nearly impossible to find through the way the church works as a whole today.

[GalensGhost 0]

Another example of complete ignorance and self-rightousness that I have is that a girl that I went to high school with asked two of my friends that are jewish if jewish people believed that they were going to hell because they didn't believe that Christ was the savior.

It's a fair question. If you're a Christian and believe that Jesus is the savior, there are a couple of contingencies there:

"And this is the way to have eternal life - to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth" (John 17:3).

"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me." (John 14:6)

“Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved†(Acts 4:12).

If you're a Christian, that's what you believe. Jesus is the path to salvation. Those who reject him are denying themselves that path.

It's a dangerous, dangerous ground to tread when you dismiss the existence of God or when you assume that "I'm a pretty decent guy, God's going to take that into account." I'm far from perfect. I make many mistakes. I'm not trying to preach here, but my faith requires me to remind those who are falling off the beam that salvation is possible, it can be achieved, but it can't be found in new-age spirituality or in simply trying to be good. Whether you find Him in church, with friends or on your own, as a Christian, I believe that Jesus is the only way. I don't like to think about what will happen in the end to my friends who are Jewish although we've discussed this topic before. They believe differently.

[tiger88 934]

I disagree with the statement that salvation can't be found through new age spirituality. Of course we would probably differ greatly in exactly what we thought salvation is.

I just don't buy into the Bible as a whole. Way too many fingers in that pie and many man made myths that are now taken by many as fact. It was surprising to me though when I found the similarities between spirituality and Christianity and other religions for that matter. It just teaches "Christian" concepts without the judgement. Kinda like I believe that Christ did when he walked the earth.

The need someone feels to be right and the other to be wrong is the ego/unconsciousness hard at work and is reflected through most if not all major religions today. I believe salvation is possible at any moment for any person regardless of their religious beliefs or lack thereof.

[BamaGrad03 0]

The lack of conviction you describe is simply situational ethics. It can also create a slippery slope where you are bound to no moral code...at least none other than the one you create for yourself.

The I'm OK, you're OK thing is just ...well slippery. I'm not here to judge. I am a Christian. But I'm also not so ego driven to think that I don't have my own faults. I think non-christians perpetuate the "Christians are sooo judgemental" thing unfairly.

Sure there are over the top crazy Christians. But Christianity at is core teaches principals of love and understanding. Not judgment and hate. Any Christians who act otherwise are missing the entire point.

[GalensGhost 0]

I disagree with the statement that salvation can't be found through new age spirituality. Of course we would probably differ greatly in exactly what we thought salvation is.

I just don't buy into the Bible as a whole. Way too many fingers in that pie and many man made myths that are now taken by many as fact. It was surprising to me though when I found the similarities between spirituality and Christianity and other religions for that matter. It just teaches "Christian" concepts without the judgement. Kinda like I believe that Christ did when he walked the earth.

The need someone feels to be right and the other to be wrong is the ego/unconsciousness hard at work and is reflected through most if not all major religions today. I believe salvation is possible at any moment for any person regardless of their religious beliefs or lack thereof.

No offense, but that doesn't make sense.

You have to believe in heaven to get there. You can't achieve salvation if you don't even know what salvation is. Salvation isn't something that occurs on earth.

I'm not a Bible literalist. I don't think the world was created in exactly six 24 hour days nor that it is only about 6000 years old. When they say Biblical figures were 600 years old, I don't believe that's what they meant literally. My thinking is that it's the same as when I say somebody's "a million years old." I understand that a lot of the Bible was written down long after the events that inspired the writing had taken place and that large portions of it were taken from passed down family histories -- which are subject to embellishment.

I do, however, believe in the lessons and meanings derived from the Bible. I believe that God sent Jesus to earth to redeem our sins. I believe that he was born of a virgin, that he preached on earth, was tortured, crucified and buried. I believe that he rose from the dead and returned to heaven. I believe that faith in Christ is the way to recieve the salvation and forgiveness He was sent to provide. I don't have to believe that Jesus actually fed 5000 people with a basket of fish and bread to understand what his life and his teachings meant.

I've researched a number of various religions and there are similarities in the basic "rules" and many of the legends. The ancient Egyptians had a flood tale, for instance. The feeding of the 5000 exists in other religious texts. But from my own experience -- and I don't want to get into a lot of it here -- there is something more. There IS a higher level, another plane. I believe it starts with Jesus.

[quietfan 233]

Another example of complete ignorance and self-rightousness that I have is that a girl that I went to high school with asked two of my friends that are jewish if jewish people believed that they were going to hell because they didn't believe that Christ was the savior.

It's a fair question. If you're a Christian and believe that Jesus is the savior, there are a couple of contingencies there:

"And this is the way to have eternal life - to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth" (John 17:3).

"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me." (John 14:6)

“Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12).

If you're a Christian, that's what you believe. Jesus is the path to salvation. Those who reject him are denying themselves that path.

I don't worry about others' salvation. Since I have no way to see into their hearts, I don't judge others. I'm very happy with my relationship to God and leave others to find their own.

Speaking purely logically, however, there is a way to reconcile these New Testemant sayings with universal tolerance and salvation, to whit: Jesus (and/or Luke, Paul or whoever) didn't say "You must be aware of and actively call upon Jesus as Savior to take advantage of God's grace", only the Jesus was the key to that grace. Perhaps Christ, through his death, unlocked some cosmic key that permits salvation to all.

Consider an analogy: No one can live without insulin--either naturally produced or injected--so insulin is a key to our survival. However, some primative tribesman does have to know about insulin, beleive in insulin, or use the word or the name "insulin" to be kept alive by insulin. Similarly, Jesus' life & death could be a sort of "spiritual insulin" that had to occur for salvation to be possible (sort of the "taking our sins upon himself-sacrificial lamb-type thing), and hence the key to salvation; but that may not mean someone must actually know of him or believe in him to "metabolize that insulin" and keep his soul alive.

Not trying to preach or tell anyone what to believe, just saying there is a way of interpreting these Bible passages that still allows for the salvation of those that don't know/accept/believe in Christ.

* * * *

I do happen to believe that 99.9999% of "New Age" stuff is a crock of bull, however, and most of it just a way of getting people's money. But that's just me.

[TexasTiger 15,483]

I disagree with the statement that salvation can't be found through new age spirituality. Of course we would probably differ greatly in exactly what we thought salvation is.

I just don't buy into the Bible as a whole. Way too many fingers in that pie and many man made myths that are now taken by many as fact. It was surprising to me though when I found the similarities between spirituality and Christianity and other religions for that matter. It just teaches "Christian" concepts without the judgement. Kinda like I believe that Christ did when he walked the earth.

The need someone feels to be right and the other to be wrong is the ego/unconsciousness hard at work and is reflected through most if not all major religions today. I believe salvation is possible at any moment for any person regardless of their religious beliefs or lack thereof.

No offense, but that doesn't make sense.

You have to believe in heaven to get there. You can't achieve salvation if you don't even know what salvation is. Salvation isn't something that occurs on earth.

I think he's saying he defines "heaven" differently.

[aumd03 2]

Another example of complete ignorance and self-rightousness that I have is that a girl that I went to high school with asked two of my friends that are jewish if jewish people believed that they were going to hell because they didn't believe that Christ was the savior.

It's a fair question. If you're a Christian and believe that Jesus is the savior, there are a couple of contingencies there:

"And this is the way to have eternal life - to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth" (John 17:3).

"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me." (John 14:6)

“Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12).

If you're a Christian, that's what you believe. Jesus is the path to salvation. Those who reject him are denying themselves that path.

I don't worry about others' salvation. Since I have no way to see into their hearts, I don't judge others. I'm very happy with my relationship to God and leave others to find their own.

Speaking purely logically, however, there is a way to reconcile these New Testemant sayings with universal tolerance and salvation, to whit: Jesus (and/or Luke, Paul or whoever) didn't say "You must be aware of and actively call upon Jesus as Savior to take advantage of God's grace", only the Jesus was the key to that grace. Perhaps Christ, through his death, unlocked some cosmic key that permits salvation to all.

Consider an analogy: No one can live without insulin--either naturally produced or injected--so insulin is a key to our survival. However, some primative tribesman does have to know about insulin, beleive in insulin, or use the word or the name "insulin" to be kept alive by insulin. Similarly, Jesus' life & death could be a sort of "spiritual insulin" that had to occur for salvation to be possible (sort of the "taking our sins upon himself-sacrificial lamb-type thing), and hence the key to salvation; but that may not mean someone must actually know of him or believe in him to "metabolize that insulin" and keep his soul alive.

Not trying to preach or tell anyone what to believe, just saying there is a way of interpreting these Bible passages that still allows for the salvation of those that don't know/accept/believe in Christ.

* * * *

I do happen to believe that 99.9999% of "New Age" stuff is a crock of bull, however, and most of it just a way of getting people's money. But that's just me.

Using your insulin logic, everyone born before Jesus had no access to Heaven without the insulin. I know its gonna come back that same logic applies to those that believe that Jesus is the only conduit to heaven. Jesus only said he was the way to the father. The old testament spelled out routes to God without Jesus. Jesus is in fact our insulin, our key to survival, but we are essentially diabetic and need to claim that to have eternal survival.

I also get frustrated with this PC view of universalism that says that whatever religious view you have is the key to salvation. Unfortunately that view is least tolerant of those that say there is only one way to heaven. Tolerance must be tolerant of all views, even views of intolerance.

[otterinbham 0]

You don't find Jesus. Jesus finds you through your careful reading and prayer.

That being said, while all denominations have their flaws and their failed leaders, all denominations have a theological approach and discipline to spiritual understanding, and shouldn't be disregarded. Some denominations believe in a literal, word-for-word interpretation of scripture, while other denominations believe otherwise. Some churches even claim themselves to be non-denominational, which I think is a misnomer.

With that in mind, realize that there are many facets to Christ, and our various denominations reflect that. With this in mind, your spiritual quest really should begin with finding a spiritual home that gives you the ability to ask hard questions both of the faith and of yourself.

[GalensGhost 0]

I don't worry about others' salvation. Since I have no way to see into their hearts, I don't judge others. I'm very happy with my relationship to God and leave others to find their own.

It's not about judging. That's not the idea at all. But part of the Christian mission is to spread the word to those who don't know, to those who don't believe and to those who don't accept. That doesn't mean you judge them at all, it simply means that you should share your faith so that others might be inspired by your life/deeds/words/actions.

[jared52 4,358]

I'm no Bible scholar so correct me where I am wrong here. Jesus taught that God is love and to forgive them for they know what what they do. He didn't teach us to pass judgement on others.

Are those correct statements?

Yes and no. Judgment is a funny word. Many people take it to mean, "Looking down on someone for something they do or believe that is different from you or that you believe to be wrong." What Jesus told us to do is to examine the motives of our heart before we speak to someone about the truth. It's a sad truth that the church today is losing touch with those outside the church who are all seeking the same thing. We (Christians) are supposed to be "little Christs" or "Christ-like" (that what the word Christian means), but we've delved too much into doing God's job. It's His job to change people, not the church's, but we have a bad rap for going out and shooting abortion doctors and picketing gays when God wants us to simply love them all. There is a phrase that I hate so much that we use in the church, "Love the sinner, hate the sin." Well, it's God's job to hate sin, not ours. It's simply our job to love the sinner. Jesus ate regularly with sinners and was despised by the religious leaders of his day. He didn't participate in their sin, but he loved them and they changed their ways.

That brings us to the problem of sin. Most people don't see themselves as "sinners". I like to ask people if they think they are a good person. Most people say yes. We think we haven't done enough bad to piss God off enough to make him send us to Hell. But that's not how it works. See, there are things God cannot do, such as be in the presence of sin. If we haven't been forgiven of our sin, we can't be in His presence or get to heaven. But Jesus provided a way out; He became our scapegoat. He simply asked us to accept that forgiveness and allow him to be Lord of our life. I seem to think that favors me more than Him. You have to decide for yourself if you think you can get into heaven on your own merit, but start with the Ten Commandments and see how many you've broken keeping in mind that Jesus said that hating someone and looking at a woman wanting to have sex with her is the same as murder and adultery.

Keep in mind that I do believe the Bible is literal and that EVERY word is God-breathed. I'd love to tell you more but I've written more than most people would read. If you wanna PM me 88, I'll be glad to send you my cell number and we can have an easier discussion about this on the phone than we can an a forum.

[TexasTiger 15,483]

You don't find Jesus.

Maybe this will help:

Link

[otterinbham 0]

You don't find Jesus.

Maybe this will help:

Link

There goes my theory.

Of course, think of the tourism possibilities they're missing out on, you know?

[TexasTiger 15,483]

You don't find Jesus.

Maybe this will help:

Link

There goes my theory.

Of course, think of the tourism possibilities they're missing out on, you know?

Conference marketing possibilities:

"Time for a 'Come to Jesus' Meeting?"

[tiger88 934]

I'm no Bible scholar so correct me where I am wrong here. Jesus taught that God is love and to forgive them for they know what what they do. He didn't teach us to pass judgement on others.

Are those correct statements?

Yes and no. Judgment is a funny word. Many people take it to mean, "Looking down on someone for something they do or believe that is different from you or that you believe to be wrong." What Jesus told us to do is to examine the motives of our heart before we speak to someone about the truth. It's a sad truth that the church today is losing touch with those outside the church who are all seeking the same thing. We (Christians) are supposed to be "little Christs" or "Christ-like" (that what the word Christian means), but we've delved too much into doing God's job. It's His job to change people, not the church's, but we have a bad rap for going out and shooting abortion doctors and picketing gays when God wants us to simply love them all. There is a phrase that I hate so much that we use in the church, "Love the sinner, hate the sin." Well, it's God's job to hate sin, not ours. It's simply our job to love the sinner. Jesus ate regularly with sinners and was despised by the religious leaders of his day. He didn't participate in their sin, but he loved them and they changed their ways.

That brings us to the problem of sin. Most people don't see themselves as "sinners". I like to ask people if they think they are a good person. Most people say yes. We think we haven't done enough bad to piss God off enough to make him send us to Hell. But that's not how it works. See, there are things God cannot do, such as be in the presence of sin. If we haven't been forgiven of our sin, we can't be in His presence or get to heaven. But Jesus provided a way out; He became our scapegoat. He simply asked us to accept that forgiveness and allow him to be Lord of our life. I seem to think that favors me more than Him. You have to decide for yourself if you think you can get into heaven on your own merit, but start with the Ten Commandments and see how many you've broken keeping in mind that Jesus said that hating someone and looking at a woman wanting to have sex with her is the same as murder and adultery.

Keep in mind that I do believe the Bible is literal and that EVERY word is God-breathed. I'd love to tell you more but I've written more than most people would read. If you wanna PM me 88, I'll be glad to send you my cell number and we can have an easier discussion about this on the phone than we can an a forum.

Wow. Thanks for sharing that Jared. That seems to come straight from the heart and isn't in line with what I hear from most Christians that I know. Also, it seems to be much more in line with what I feel Jesus taught when he walked the earth.

I'm going to be honest with you though. I see the Bible as one of mans attempts to explain our existence. I think there are great spiritual truths within the Bible and much of it was guided by God or by heartfelt attempts to feel what God wants for us. I think like many or all other attempts by man to decipher these things it is flawed in some ways.

I like what Jesus said about finding him in the split wood and under a rock or however exactly that goes. To me he was speaking of the oneneess of all things and he wasn't speaking of "him" but that inside him which connected him to God and which could be found in all things. The love or the energy that holds things together and makes them what they are. He was trying to open people eyes to the belief that God is inside of everyone and everything. Kind of like you say he wanted us to all be "little-Christs". He was trying to show everyone that we were capable of being as loving and peaceful as he was, and we are.

I would like to sit down one day and speak with you about your beliefs because I feel like I could learn something from it. Not sure if a phone call is the way to go and I don't get out of south alabama much, but who knows.

Thanks again.

[tiger88 934]

One thing I wanted to say in this thread is that most spiritualists don't believe in "evil" and "sin". They believe in consciousness and unconsciousness with the reference point being the present moment where life unfolds.

If you are unconscious your awareness is not anchored in the present moment and the ego is running your thoughts. The unconscious behavior that often results from that is what many refer to as sin. It is a result of ego-based thinking (the ego is your mind created image of yourself). To label one as evil for unconscious behavior is ego based.

The ego is judging that person as being lesser than you based on their behavior. It is the beginning of trouble, because that type of thought tends to mushroom in most people at least. Then all the sudden one day you have one group attacking another or one country attacking another because they are "evil".

They are not evil. They are people just like you and me who have lost touch with what is real and important.

JMO.

[BamaGrad03 0]

The ego is judging that person as being lesser than you based on their behavior. It is the beginning of trouble, because that type of thought tends to mushroom in most people at least. Then all the sudden one day you have one group attacking another or one country attacking another because they are "evil".

This doesn't relate to Christianity. I don't consider someone a lesser person because they don't believe the way I do.

[tiger88 934]

The ego is judging that person as being lesser than you based on their behavior. It is the beginning of trouble, because that type of thought tends to mushroom in most people at least. Then all the sudden one day you have one group attacking another or one country attacking another because they are "evil".

This doesn't relate to Christianity. I don't consider someone a lesser person because they don't believe the way I do.

Thats cool. Nowhere in the entire post that you quoted part of did I say a word about Christianity. It wasn't about any one person or religion.

[bigsixfive 341]

I'm going to be honest with you though. I see the Bible as one of mans attempts to explain our existence.

I think you need to read the Bible... It would help you understand the fallacy in that statement, and it would also answer many of your questions. Understand you won't immediately be flooded with answers though, and that it will take some time and work on your part. Also, try some other resources to aid your understanding, such as books, sermons, preachers, or websites. I personally like apologetic books, I find they address many common questions and misconceptions. Here's some I use:

The Case for Christ, The Case for Faith, etc... Lee Strobel books, very good. http://www.leestrobel.com/store.php

Josh McDowell books. http://www.josh.org/

Ravi Zacharias, he and others post their online radio shows free of charge. http://www.rzim.org/

The pastor of my church posts his sermon transcripts online, they're very good. FBC Opelika

William Lane Craig, unbelievably smart apologist, his stuff gets pretty detailed and deep (2 sites). http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/ and http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/PageServer

http://www.christianity.com/

Christianity.com Theology Forums

There's a ton of links and other resources available through those as well. Give those a look. Get those Lee Strobel books too, they really are great. I've read those two I mentioned, and he's got 2 or 3 more "Case for" books as well. They're easy reads, and have good, detailed, documented answers to allegations and questions.

[tiger88 934]

Thanks 6'5". I browsed a couple of those and may go back for some more later.

I assure you one thing. I have not come by my beliefs loosely and the little bits I browsed really weren't appealing to me. Debates that are basically mind battles and such. I'm right, you're wrong kind of stuff. Endless dissection of the Bible and when you get into that it always seems to come down to personal opinions about the semantics of words and such. And really it kind of reinforces what I said when I started this thread. So many different interpretaions of the Bible.

You can take the 50 Holiest people in Christianity based on a poll or whatever and give them all the same various scriptures to pray on and interpret and when they are done you will have 50 interpretations that differ in some "key" areas. Who is right and who is wrong? They all prayed to the same God.

The fact is that Jesus has been gone for a long time and what is left is a bunch of man made interpretaions of what he said when he was here. Somewhere within all those interpretaions lies his message. We can all say, "Oh, I've got it", and for each one who says that there is someone saying, "no,I do".

To debate about whether or not he was resurrected is a complete waste of time to me because who here really knows? Were you there? Did you take his pulse and determine there was none and then see him rise and walk again? Of course not. You can take it on faith that he did and thats fine with me.

[aumd03 2]

Thanks 6'5". I browsed a couple of those and may go back for some more later.

I assure you one thing. I have not come by my beliefs loosely and the little bits I browsed really weren't appealing to me. Debates that are basically mind battles and such. I'm right, you're wrong kind of stuff. Endless dissection of the Bible and when you get into that it always seems to come down to personal opinions about the semantics of words and such. And really it kind of reinforces what I said when I started this thread. So many different interpretaions of the Bible.

You can take the 50 Holiest people in Christianity based on a poll or whatever and give them all the same various scriptures to pray on and interpret and when they are done you will have 50 interpretations that differ in some "key" areas. Who is right and who is wrong? They all prayed to the same God.

The fact is that Jesus has been gone for a long time and what is left is a bunch of man made interpretaions of what he said when he was here. Somewhere within all those interpretaions lies his message. We can all say, "Oh, I've got it", and for each one who says that there is someone saying, "no,I do".

To debate about whether or not he was resurrected is a complete waste of time to me because who here really knows? Were you there? Did you take his pulse and determine there was none and then see him rise and walk again? Of course not. You can take it on faith that he did and thats fine with me.

There's a reason its called faith. It doesn't take much of a leap to believe in something you can hold in your hand.

[bigsixfive 341]

Thanks 6'5". I browsed a couple of those and may go back for some more later.

I assure you one thing. I have not come by my beliefs loosely and the little bits I browsed really weren't appealing to me. Debates that are basically mind battles and such. I'm right, you're wrong kind of stuff. Endless dissection of the Bible and when you get into that it always seems to come down to personal opinions about the semantics of words and such. And really it kind of reinforces what I said when I started this thread. So many different interpretaions of the Bible.

The debates those people are usually involved in are with staunch atheists that feel its their cause to disprove Christianity... which is odd when since they believe nothing ultimately matters. They don't debate whether or not the Bible says to drink or not drink, to dance or not dance, etc, which is what you imply above. Trying to understand God is a mind battle because flawed humans with finite minds cannot fathom an infinite God. Reading debates and the works of those above can aid in a personal understanding of God for many reasons. To be honest, non-believers ask tough questions, and its good to hear a sound, reasonable response (that is often documented). Also, a discussion on the semantics of words is required to study the Bible - a document that's been translated from Hebrew to/and Greek to many languages. Plus, as Americans, we're trying to understand a completely foreign culture. On top of that, its a historical culture. Analysis of each word to understand its original meaning and context it was used in is a requirement. Fortunately, many people extensively study this area (such as pastors) and are available when explanation is necessary.

You can take the 50 Holiest people in Christianity based on a poll or whatever and give them all the same various scriptures to pray on and interpret and when they are done you will have 50 interpretations that differ in some "key" areas. Who is right and who is wrong? They all prayed to the same God.

The only thing that ultimately matters, which is implied by their claim to Christianity, is that they understand Jesus Christ is the path to their salvation. Different interpretations aren't always a bad thing, like you are assuming. Different points of view help us further learn the word of God.

The fact is that Jesus has been gone for a long time and what is left is a bunch of man made interpretaions of what he said when he was here. Somewhere within all those interpretaions lies his message. We can all say, "Oh, I've got it", and for each one who says that there is someone saying, "no,I do".

Actually, that's incorrect. The New Testament was written by the disciples or their understudies. Basically, the authors had a direct link to Christ himself. James was actually his brother. To put it into a current context, it would be like you writing about a close personal friend. There would be nothing for you to interpret, you had eye witness testimony of his actual actions, sayings, etc. Another way to think about it would be your (maybe great) grandfather telling you about a WWII or Korea. The New Testament is far from an interpretation of what Christ said or did.

To debate about whether or not he was resurrected is a complete waste of time to me because who here really knows? Were you there? Did you take his pulse and determine there was none and then see him rise and walk again? Of course not. You can take it on faith that he did and thats fine with me.

Taking it on faith is pretty important, but its more important that you don't take it on blind faith. Christianity can be backed by fact, and that separates it from other religions. A Muslim can be just as faithful as Billy Graham, but that doesn't mean he's right. It is a FACT that the Bible is the most verified historical document in existence, despite what you hear. Among those FACTS is that Jesus died and was resurrected. Those two books I provided go through this in detail, but basically 1) since the Bible is a proven document, you can take that as verification, 2) there are other verified documents with eyewitness accounts of the death and resurrection of Christ (remember, he spoke to a large crowd with hundreds of people). Many things people would have you believe are myths can actually be easily proven as fact.

Most of that information I gave you in the previous post won't mean too much to you now, but if you really start yearning for and learning the Word of God, it can help. Some of it will answer initial questions you have, but it is a personal decision you alone must make to start understanding Christianity and the teachings of Christ. I think its good you're inquisitive about it and showing a desire to understand, but its up to you to take the next step and really get into it on your own. I'd advise talking to some buddies that are in church, and seeing if you can tag along. Try and go into it with an open mind, because I'd bet many of your pre-conceived notions weren't exactly right. The more you expose yourself to it, the more you will learn an understand.

[jared52 4,358]

One thing I wanted to say in this thread is that most spiritualists don't believe in "evil" and "sin". They believe in consciousness and unconsciousness with the reference point being the present moment where life unfolds.

If you are unconscious your awareness is not anchored in the present moment and the ego is running your thoughts. The unconscious behavior that often results from that is what many refer to as sin. It is a result of ego-based thinking (the ego is your mind created image of yourself). To label one as evil for unconscious behavior is ego based.

The ego is judging that person as being lesser than you based on their behavior. It is the beginning of trouble, because that type of thought tends to mushroom in most people at least. Then all the sudden one day you have one group attacking another or one country attacking another because they are "evil".

They are not evil. They are people just like you and me who have lost touch with what is real and important.

JMO.

I'm glad to share with you and I hope that I am making sense to you because I am a talker not a writer and have a hard time putting on paper what my thoughts are.

Simply put, if there was no such thing as sin, Jesus waisted his time and went through some pretty painful stuff for nothing. The Bible is pretty clear on the existence of sin and it's effects on humanity. But again, the church has decided some where that it must point out sin to people and that's not its job. Yes, preachers should point out sin in their pulpits and condemn it, but it's not the churches job to go out into the world and shout at them about what they are doing wrong. We are simply to love people and then when they see themselves through that love, they will turn to Jesus and He will make the changes in the life of the person He wants to make. It might not be the same changes He made in me because His goal is to bring us back into a Garden of Eden relationship with God.

Sin is certainly misused, but that doesn't negate its existence. You are correct in saying that sin is directly tied to sin as the root of sin is pride and us deciding what is best instead of God. I believe that God is infinitely more wise than I am and I know He knows what is best for me. That doesn't always stop me from making a sinful, pride-filled choice, but it directs me more often than not.

By the way, I loved the title of your thread because it is what drew me into this conversation. I ignore a lot of these thread because of what they become. Maybe one day me and you can sit down to a discuss this, who knows. But don't stop asking that question until you know the answer, even if you choose not to believe it. I think that it is answered like this: "The same way people always have." Jeremiah 29:13 says "If you seek me you will find me if you seek me with all your heart." (Emphasis mine). Keep seeking, you'll get an answer. Read the Bible even if you don't believe it's really from God, but a failed attempt to explain him. Start with the book of John (not the one with the numbers in front of it, but the one after Luke) and pay particular attention to how Jesus treated people. That how we (the Church) are supposed to be treating people. Jesus LOVED questions that came without a motive (see how he responds to the Pharisees who were simply trying to catch Jesus giving a "wrong" response). Hebrews 11:6 says "And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him." Seek him earnestly, 88, and you will be rewarded.