A Provocative Question

[otterinbham 0]

Interesting thing has happened twice to me in business settings this week. In the first, a prospective vendor brought up his Bible study class to me not once, not twice, but three times in the meeting. The first time was okay. But, after the third mention, I quietly wrote the guy off.

Then I was talking to a plumber about running some water out to the Party Barn. When the man started talking about his estimate, he began with "Now I'm a Christian, so...."

I began to reflect myself. Whenever I see the Fish symbol on people's business cards and print ads, I find myself quietly discounting them as somebody I would do business with. Not because of their faith. After all, I sit on the Vestry of my church, attend twice a week, and participate in weekly study.

However, I believe it wholly inappropriate to use Christ to ring up a sale. What's more, when somebody brings up their faith in the course of a negotiation, I always wonder what they're trying to hide.

At the same time, I understand some of you might have a completely different philosophy when it comes to this issue. Explain.

[bigsixfive 341]

Really not sure of the context in which those things were said, but if its in the correct context I wouldn't mind at all.

In the case of the plumber, it could just be a nice conversation starter. Or, he could be trying to share God's Word with you. Maybe he sees the requirements of his career as an excellent chance to share the Word or a testimony. I would think he'd bring it up at some other point, rather than when you start discussing dollars though. That does seem like an inappropriate time.

On business cards, I've thought the same thing you did - they're just trying to get an extra sale. However, they could also convey trust to the potential customer with that little symbol. This is important in a house-call oriented field, because I don't want just anyone coming into my home, and definitely when my wife is the only one here.

The vendor, well, he could just be excited about his Bible study. Maybe he's found some insight from it he's trying to share (again, don't know the context). In a business setting, I don't know if its appropriate to continually bring it up though. I know of people who may open a meeting or the work day in prayer or something, but its not mentioned continually through out the day. I will say I was recently on an interview, and the last 45 minutes of it were talking about God's plan and churches. I found it to be quite enjoyable.

[otterinbham 0]

Really not sure of the context in which those things were said, but if its in the correct context I wouldn't mind at all.

In the case of the plumber, it could just be a nice conversation starter.

Good thoughts. But in the case of the plumber, he hadn't mentioned Jesus until we got to the point of discussing his estimate.

Actually, here's another case in point. Two months ago, I talked to a guy about his restaurant chain. All my alarms went off: He would spend a lot of time talking about what he paid for his car, and his very aggressive expansion plan. Then he started talking about his religious faith. Then, not two minutes later, he mentioned how he was going to Brombergs after our meeting to buy an engagement ring for his girlfriend. Except she wasn't divorced yet.

Needless to say, I didn't chase his business. I quoted an exorbitant price, and asked for money up front.

[AUesquire 1]

Finish your business, then share your faith. Or vice-versa. Christians are called to spread the Gospel but you have to use some common sense in doing so. Complete the business meeting and then bring up the Bible study and invite someone to it. Talk about the plumbing job and then talk about your faith.

Even though we are called to share our faith, and the Lord knows full well how I struggle with doing that, I think you just have to try and make sure (if possible) that you find a time when it would be best received and not a turn-off.

[AURaptor 1,137]

I took an elective P.E. class at Auburn. Swimming. Forget the instructors name,...some faculty member, no one from the swim team. On the final day of class, we had a short little exam, and then sat on the bleechers by the pool, waiting to be excused. The instructor's son, who was a grad student and had helped out through the course, was left with running the class. After roll had been called and the test handed in, most of us expected to be let our early. Not so fast. Seems the grad student had some words he wanted to offer us before he let us go. So, about 30 of us sat there, ready to head on out and call it a day, and this guy starts talking about his life being born again. I didn't really know the guy, but he seemed nice enough. So I figured he'd simply share something positive w/ us for a couple of minutes, and then we'd be on our way. This guy proceeded to rant for almost the full class period about the importance of being Christian. By the end of it all, I was furious. This a-hole kept us there for his personal religious indoctrination, that had NOTHING to do w/ the class. Why didn't anyone say anything, or just get up and leave ? I don't know. Probably like most, I simply assumed he was going to say a few words, then stop. But he kept on talking...and talking..and talking. Some probably didn't mind, and others might have even agreed w/ the concept of a captive audience being forced to listen to him talk about Jesus. I wasn't one of them. But what was I gonna say? It's not like you could have gone to instructor, as it was his DAD, and likely put him up to it in the 1st place. It was a silly little elective class. And technically, we DID have to be there for the duration of the class. But to keep us there for THAT ? Of the time I spent at AU, that rates among my least favorite and I regret not having said anything at the time.

[bigsixfive 341]

Really not sure of the context in which those things were said, but if its in the correct context I wouldn't mind at all.

In the case of the plumber, it could just be a nice conversation starter.

Good thoughts. But in the case of the plumber, he hadn't mentioned Jesus until we got to the point of discussing his estimate.

Actually, here's another case in point. Two months ago, I talked to a guy about his restaurant chain. All my alarms went off: He would spend a lot of time talking about what he paid for his car, and his very aggressive expansion plan. Then he started talking about his religious faith. Then, not two minutes later, he mentioned how he was going to Brombergs after our meeting to buy an engagement ring for his girlfriend. Except she wasn't divorced yet.

Needless to say, I didn't chase his business. I quoted an exorbitant price, and asked for money up front.

Yeah, I'd avoid that one like the plague.

[otterinbham 0]

I took an elective P.E. class at Auburn. Swimming. Forget the instructors name,...some faculty member, no one from the swim team. On the final day of class, we had a short little exam, and then sat on the bleechers by the pool, waiting to be excused. The instructor's son, who was a grad student and had helped out through the course, was left with running the class. After roll had been called and the test handed in, most of us expected to be let our early. Not so fast. Seems the grad student had some words he wanted to offer us before he let us go. So, about 30 of us sat there, ready to head on out and call it a day, and this guy starts talking about his life being born again. I didn't really know the guy, but he seemed nice enough. So I figured he'd simply share something positive w/ us for a couple of minutes, and then we'd be on our way. This guy proceeded to rant for almost the full class period about the importance of being Christian. By the end of it all, I was furious. This a-hole kept us there for his personal religious indoctrination, that had NOTHING to do w/ the class. Why didn't anyone say anything, or just get up and leave ? I don't know. Probably like most, I simply assumed he was going to say a few words, then stop. But he kept on talking...and talking..and talking. Some probably didn't mind, and others might have even agreed w/ the concept of a captive audience being forced to listen to him talk about Jesus. I wasn't one of them. But what was I gonna say? It's not like you could have gone to instructor, as it was his DAD, and likely put him up to it in the 1st place. It was a silly little elective class. And technically, we DID have to be there for the duration of the class. But to keep us there for THAT ? Of the time I spent at AU, that rates among my least favorite and I regret not having said anything at the time.

Man. That is soooo wrong. Probably what this guy did was turn more people OFF to Christianity.

I think the essential problem is that scripture can be viewed as contradictory on the subject of prosletyzing. Those like your swimming coach will go on at length about the Great Commission and how important it is to speak about your faith in public. Meanwhile, the Sermon On The Mount, the ethical core of the faith, prohibits that very activity. Admittedly, it's a very hard balance between the two.

[CCTAU 3,825]

I took an elective P.E. class at Auburn. Swimming. Forget the instructors name,...some faculty member, no one from the swim team. On the final day of class, we had a short little exam, and then sat on the bleechers by the pool, waiting to be excused. The instructor's son, who was a grad student and had helped out through the course, was left with running the class. After roll had been called and the test handed in, most of us expected to be let our early. Not so fast. Seems the grad student had some words he wanted to offer us before he let us go. So, about 30 of us sat there, ready to head on out and call it a day, and this guy starts talking about his life being born again. I didn't really know the guy, but he seemed nice enough. So I figured he'd simply share something positive w/ us for a couple of minutes, and then we'd be on our way. This guy proceeded to rant for almost the full class period about the importance of being Christian. By the end of it all, I was furious. This a-hole kept us there for his personal religious indoctrination, that had NOTHING to do w/ the class. Why didn't anyone say anything, or just get up and leave ? I don't know. Probably like most, I simply assumed he was going to say a few words, then stop. But he kept on talking...and talking..and talking. Some probably didn't mind, and others might have even agreed w/ the concept of a captive audience being forced to listen to him talk about Jesus. I wasn't one of them. But what was I gonna say? It's not like you could have gone to instructor, as it was his DAD, and likely put him up to it in the 1st place. It was a silly little elective class. And technically, we DID have to be there for the duration of the class. But to keep us there for THAT ? Of the time I spent at AU, that rates among my least favorite and I regret not having said anything at the time.

Although I do not agree with this tactic, at least you got it all in one shot. Most of the time you sit there all semester and slowly have some librul atheist get his digs in a little at a time. Death by a thousand pricks, so to speak. You don't complain about that guy.

When it comes to doing business, why not do business with other Christians. We are the only religion that eats its own. I start out with a check to see if they are in some special yellow pages, then I ask around to see how they do their work. I do not go with them just because they are Christian. But I do seek those out first. Why not. You think a muslix chooses a Christian over another muslix?

[otterinbham 0]

I took an elective P.E. class at Auburn. Swimming. Forget the instructors name,...some faculty member, no one from the swim team. On the final day of class, we had a short little exam, and then sat on the bleechers by the pool, waiting to be excused. The instructor's son, who was a grad student and had helped out through the course, was left with running the class. After roll had been called and the test handed in, most of us expected to be let our early. Not so fast. Seems the grad student had some words he wanted to offer us before he let us go. So, about 30 of us sat there, ready to head on out and call it a day, and this guy starts talking about his life being born again. I didn't really know the guy, but he seemed nice enough. So I figured he'd simply share something positive w/ us for a couple of minutes, and then we'd be on our way. This guy proceeded to rant for almost the full class period about the importance of being Christian. By the end of it all, I was furious. This a-hole kept us there for his personal religious indoctrination, that had NOTHING to do w/ the class. Why didn't anyone say anything, or just get up and leave ? I don't know. Probably like most, I simply assumed he was going to say a few words, then stop. But he kept on talking...and talking..and talking. Some probably didn't mind, and others might have even agreed w/ the concept of a captive audience being forced to listen to him talk about Jesus. I wasn't one of them. But what was I gonna say? It's not like you could have gone to instructor, as it was his DAD, and likely put him up to it in the 1st place. It was a silly little elective class. And technically, we DID have to be there for the duration of the class. But to keep us there for THAT ? Of the time I spent at AU, that rates among my least favorite and I regret not having said anything at the time.

Although I do not agree with this tactic, at least you got it all in one shot. Most of the time you sit there all semester and slowly have some librul atheist get his digs in a little at a time. Death by a thousand pricks, so to speak. You don't complain about that guy.

When it comes to doing business, why not do business with other Christians. We are the only religion that eats its own. I start out with a check to see if they are in some special yellow pages, then I ask around to see how they do their work. I do not go with them just because they are Christian. But I do seek those out first. Why not. You think a muslix chooses a Christian over another muslix?

The irony of this situation is how he used sleazy tactics. Seriously.

Look, nobody's questioning the desire or need to transmit the faith to others. The essence of the question at hand is WHEN is the right time to do it, and under what circumstances. I've had occasion to speak of my faith, but that time has been when the message would fall on receptive ears of people who were genuinely interested.

However, to my point of view, somebody broadcasting their faith in a business meeting or in the Yellow Pages doesn't make them a Christian. It means they are using their purported Christianity to gain commercial advantage, and that's an important distinction. I work with a lot of people who demonstrate their faith superbly in how they conduct their lives and how they do business--without having to bray it to the rooftops. Those are the people I want to know in my life, my faith, and my business.

[Tigermike 4,084]

Then I was talking to a plumber about running some water out to the Party Barn. When the man started talking about his estimate, he began with "Now I'm a Christian, so...."

Years ago I bought a horse from a man who started out that was as well. I can still say with complete confidence and honesty that was the sorriest horse I ever had!

[CCTAU 3,825]

Then I was talking to a plumber about running some water out to the Party Barn. When the man started talking about his estimate, he began with "Now I'm a Christian, so...."

Years ago I bought a horse from a man who started out that was as well. I can still say with complete confidence and honesty that was the sorriest horse I ever had!

In all fairness, the man just may have been a Christian. But the horse could have been possessed by da debil.

[otterinbham 0]

Then I was talking to a plumber about running some water out to the Party Barn. When the man started talking about his estimate, he began with "Now I'm a Christian, so...."

Years ago I bought a horse from a man who started out that was as well. I can still say with complete confidence and honesty that was the sorriest horse I ever had!

In all fairness, the man just may have been a Christian. But the horse could have been possessed by da debil.

That's it! I bet it was in the warranty, too.

[Tigermike 4,084]

Then I was talking to a plumber about running some water out to the Party Barn. When the man started talking about his estimate, he began with "Now I'm a Christian, so...."

Years ago I bought a horse from a man who started out that was as well. I can still say with complete confidence and honesty that was the sorriest horse I ever had!

In all fairness, the man just may have been a Christian. But the horse could have been possessed by da debil.

That's it! I bet it was in the warranty, too.

Whenever I remember that horse, I think of something Rush Limbaugh used to say. "Style over substance." It was a good looking horse, but he wasn't worth a dang. About all he was good for was standing under a shade tree and looking good.

PS - He wasn't possessed, just lazy and sorry. And there was no warranty.

[BamaGrad03 0]

My faith has come up in conversation at past jobs. But it was with people whom I considered friends. And it was an open discussion about Religion. I wasn't selling them on Jesus. I was just giving them my perspective. I would NEVER bring it up around a sale, or in a situation that would seem pressing.

The problem with many Christians, they turn people off with their style. They make people uncomfortable because they bring up religion at the wrong time, or in the wrong context, and it just seems like a used car sale.

[otterinbham 0]

My faith has come up in conversation at past jobs. But it was with people whom I considered friends. And it was an open discussion about Religion. I wasn't selling them on Jesus. I was just giving them my perspective. I would NEVER bring it up around a sale, or in a situation that would seem pressing.

The problem with many Christians, they turn people off with their style. They make people uncomfortable because they bring up religion at the wrong time, or in the wrong context, and it just seems like a used car sale.

BINGO.

You know the ones I love? The ones who, when told you're happy with your own church, blithely ignore you and insist on inviting you to their church. In other words, theirs is better than mine, and how gravely uninformed I am.

[AUChizad 0]

Then I was talking to a plumber about running some water out to the Party Barn. When the man started talking about his estimate, he began with "Now I'm a Christian, so...."

Jesus would have flipped a table over then and there.

[TitanTiger 22,005]

Yeah, I heard someone say once, when asked "What would Jesus do," remember that a valid option is to yell and turn over tables.

[AUChizad 0]

Yeah, I heard someone say once, when asked "What would Jesus do," remember that a valid option is to yell and turn over tables.

And it sounds like otter missed the perfect opportunity!

[sogaaufan 27]

When I first got into sales in 1989, I had a manager who I had known for years. I knew he was a Christian by the way he lived and not because he had to tell me. He told me something one time that I have carried with me in business dealings since. He said that we are supposed to use our business to further the kingdom of God, however, never use the kingdom of God to further your business. Only God (and you) know your heart, and both of you know when you have crossed that line. He went so far as to say that if you had to rely on your Christianity to make a sale, you had better give all of that money to the Lord because he earned it, not you.

[bammanmr 0]

I took an elective P.E. class at Auburn. Swimming. Forget the instructors name,...some faculty member, no one from the swim team. On the final day of class, we had a short little exam, and then sat on the bleechers by the pool, waiting to be excused. The instructor's son, who was a grad student and had helped out through the course, was left with running the class. After roll had been called and the test handed in, most of us expected to be let our early. Not so fast. Seems the grad student had some words he wanted to offer us before he let us go. So, about 30 of us sat there, ready to head on out and call it a day, and this guy starts talking about his life being born again. I didn't really know the guy, but he seemed nice enough. So I figured he'd simply share something positive w/ us for a couple of minutes, and then we'd be on our way. This guy proceeded to rant for almost the full class period about the importance of being Christian. By the end of it all, I was furious. This a-hole kept us there for his personal religious indoctrination, that had NOTHING to do w/ the class. Why didn't anyone say anything, or just get up and leave ? I don't know. Probably like most, I simply assumed he was going to say a few words, then stop. But he kept on talking...and talking..and talking. Some probably didn't mind, and others might have even agreed w/ the concept of a captive audience being forced to listen to him talk about Jesus. I wasn't one of them. But what was I gonna say? It's not like you could have gone to instructor, as it was his DAD, and likely put him up to it in the 1st place. It was a silly little elective class. And technically, we DID have to be there for the duration of the class. But to keep us there for THAT ? Of the time I spent at AU, that rates among my least favorite and I regret not having said anything at the time.

i had an instructor do that in undergrad as well, and i got up and left. luckily, it was early in the semester and i was able to walk directly to pick up a drop form.

mentioning your faith, discussing your faith, telling me your testimony. all fine, and usually they all fall on welcome ears, but not at work and not at school. i was asked a TON of questions about religion and faith when i taught col, and i always said the same thing. "Its a personal relationship and if you want to discuss it after class I that'd be great."

[WAR EAGLE!!! 0]

I took an elective P.E. class at Auburn. Swimming. Forget the instructors name,...some faculty member, no one from the swim team. On the final day of class, we had a short little exam, and then sat on the bleechers by the pool, waiting to be excused. The instructor's son, who was a grad student and had helped out through the course, was left with running the class. After roll had been called and the test handed in, most of us expected to be let our early. Not so fast. Seems the grad student had some words he wanted to offer us before he let us go. So, about 30 of us sat there, ready to head on out and call it a day, and this guy starts talking about his life being born again. I didn't really know the guy, but he seemed nice enough. So I figured he'd simply share something positive w/ us for a couple of minutes, and then we'd be on our way. This guy proceeded to rant for almost the full class period about the importance of being Christian. By the end of it all, I was furious. This a-hole kept us there for his personal religious indoctrination, that had NOTHING to do w/ the class. Why didn't anyone say anything, or just get up and leave ? I don't know. Probably like most, I simply assumed he was going to say a few words, then stop. But he kept on talking...and talking..and talking. Some probably didn't mind, and others might have even agreed w/ the concept of a captive audience being forced to listen to him talk about Jesus. I wasn't one of them. But what was I gonna say? It's not like you could have gone to instructor, as it was his DAD, and likely put him up to it in the 1st place. It was a silly little elective class. And technically, we DID have to be there for the duration of the class. But to keep us there for THAT ? Of the time I spent at AU, that rates among my least favorite and I regret not having said anything at the time.

i had an instructor do that in undergrad as well, and i got up and left. luckily, it was early in the semester and i was able to walk directly to pick up a drop form.

mentioning your faith, discussing your faith, telling me your testimony. all fine, and usually they all fall on welcome ears, but not at work and not at school. i was asked a TON of questions about religion and faith when i taught col, and i always said the same thing. "Its a personal relationship and if you want to discuss it after class I that'd be great."

On the flip side, I had an instructor for Lit that on the first day wanted us to write a paper on how much better the world would have been if instead of Adam and Eve, it was 2 women. SHe was a big time liberal feminists so I promptly dropped the course.

It goes both ways, the only problem is when they are spewing their libralistic view, you only hear about it on Rush, Glenn Beck or Andrew Wilkow. However, when a conservative gives their point of view, or a christian shares their faith, then you hear about it all over everywhere.

For the record, I disagree with it on both sides. I don't like the Christian using a classroom forum to share his or her faith just like I don't like a liberal spewing thier garbage either.

[quietfan 233]

Sorry if this gets kinda long and rambling, but a lot of thoughts crossed my mind while reading the thread:

On business cards, I've thought the same thing you did - they're just trying to get an extra sale. However, they could also convey trust to the potential customer with that little symbol. This is important in a house-call oriented field, because I don't want just anyone coming into my home, and definitely when my wife is the only one here.

I wouldn't put too much trust in this. Lots of self-avowed "Christians" are quite crooked--anyone remember Jim Bakker? And any psychopath can put a symbol on his business card, but still rob you blind or rape/kill your family.

I took an elective P.E. class at Auburn. Swimming. Forget the instructors name,...some faculty member, no one from the swim team. On the final day of class, we had a short little exam, and then sat on the bleechers by the pool, waiting to be excused. The instructor's son, who was a grad student and had helped out through the course, was left with running the class. After roll had been called and the test handed in, most of us expected to be let our early. Not so fast. Seems the grad student had some words he wanted to offer us before he let us go. So, about 30 of us sat there, ready to head on out and call it a day, and this guy starts talking about his life being born again. I didn't really know the guy, but he seemed nice enough. So I figured he'd simply share something positive w/ us for a couple of minutes, and then we'd be on our way. This guy proceeded to rant for almost the full class period about the importance of being Christian. By the end of it all, I was furious. This a-hole kept us there for his personal religious indoctrination, that had NOTHING to do w/ the class. Why didn't anyone say anything, or just get up and leave ? I don't know. Probably like most, I simply assumed he was going to say a few words, then stop. But he kept on talking...and talking..and talking. Some probably didn't mind, and others might have even agreed w/ the concept of a captive audience being forced to listen to him talk about Jesus. I wasn't one of them. But what was I gonna say? It's not like you could have gone to instructor, as it was his DAD, and likely put him up to it in the 1st place. It was a silly little elective class. And technically, we DID have to be there for the duration of the class. But to keep us there for THAT ? Of the time I spent at AU, that rates among my least favorite and I regret not having said anything at the time.

Absolutely unethical in a public university! Since this was the final exam, I would have waited until my grade was officially recorded on my transcript, then reported the father and son to the Department Chair or Dean.

We are the only religion that eats its own.

I'm not sure a lot of Shiites or Sunnis would agree...

When I first got into sales in 1989, I had a manager who I had known for years. I knew he was a Christian by the way he lived and not because he had to tell me. He told me something one time that I have carried with me in business dealings since. He said that we are supposed to use our business to further the kingdom of God, however, never use the kingdom of God to further your business. Only God (and you) know your heart, and both of you know when you have crossed that line. He went so far as to say that if you had to rely on your Christianity to make a sale, you had better give all of that money to the Lord because he earned it, not you.

Now THIS is wisdom I can agree with 100% !

On the flip side, I had an instructor for Lit that on the first day wanted us to write a paper on how much better the world would have been if instead of Adam and Eve, it was 2 women.

Well, to begin with, homo sapiens would have died with the first generation. ...but some extreme tree-hugging environmentalists might say that was a big improvement.

[tiger88 934]

This thread reminds me of a bit Jim Gaffigan does (the comic) where he talks about people offering to speak to you about jesus and how uncomfortable it makes others. It was pretty funny.

I agree with the sentiments of saqauufan and his boss. If you are a true Christian or spiritual person it will show through and you will not need to invoke your religious beliefs to close the sale. Not to mention that in today's world many are turned off by those who do so as is shown with this thread.

[MDM4AU 339]

I don't speak of my faith in my job unless my customer brings it up or the conversation is going in that direction. I do not look for ways to bring it up. I hope that my Faith shows through.

A few years ago I was looking for estimates to get a fender repaired. While waiting on the estimate the owner (holding his Bible) begins talking to me and quoting scripture and declaring the world in the proverbial hand basket to hell. I just sort of nodded and really didn't encourage the conversation to continue. He then begins to tell me that the KJV is the only real version of the Bible and all the others are counterfeit and missing scripture and that its taking away from the word of God, blah, blah, blah...

Needless to say I didn't use his services. When I think about it to this day, I just shake my head. How many people have been pushed away due to this guy?

[keoson7 28]

Most of the people that have to pull the "Christian" card at an estimate, would be compared to them using KY to ease the pain. I have never used my religious opinions at an estimate. I do pray that the phone rings with work though.