Catholic theology discussion

[TitanTiger 21,153]

Pray to Jesus, not to a priest...FACT.

Actually, the Catholic church doesn't teach anyone to pray to a priest. You're either thinking of the practice of praying to saints or confessing sins to a priest. But neither of those things are necessarily anti-Biblical. I don't find it necessary to ask saints to intercede for me, but I don't find anything biblically wrong with it anymore than I find it wrong to ask someone here on earth to intercede in prayer for me. As far as confessing sins to a priest, the Catholic church doesn't teach people they can't ask confess directly to God. In fact, it's encouraged. But confession is good for accountability and to actually hear audibly the words of Christ that "your sins are forgiven." It also fulfills the Scriptures that tell us to confess our sins one to another so I don't really have a problem with that either. Interestingly, it's a practice that even Martin Luther continued after the Protestant Reformation and to this day many Anglicans and Lutherans still observe the practice, not to mention the Eastern Orthodox churches.

I could nitpick some stuff on just about any denomination (or non-denominationals). I happen to think Hagee's end-times theological outlook is a crock and utterly unscriptural.

I know this is a tangent, but when you put "FACT" after it, I thought I'd at least address it.

[CCTAU 3,490]

Pray to Jesus, not to a priest...FACT.

Actually, the Catholic church doesn't teach anyone to pray to a priest. You're either thinking of the practice of praying to saints or confessing sins to a priest. But neither of those things are necessarily anti-Biblical. I don't find it necessary to ask saints to intercede for me, but I don't find anything biblically wrong with it anymore than I find it wrong to ask someone here on earth to intercede in prayer for me. As far as confessing sins to a priest, the Catholic church doesn't teach people they can't ask confess directly to God. In fact, it's encouraged. But confession is good for accountability and to actually hear audibly the words of Christ that "your sins are forgiven." It also fulfills the Scriptures that tell us to confess our sins one to another so I don't really have a problem with that either. Interestingly, it's a practice that even Martin Luther continued after the Protestant Reformation and to this day many Anglicans and Lutherans still observe the practice, not to mention the Eastern Orthodox churches.

I could nitpick some stuff on just about any denomination (or non-denominationals). I happen to think Hagee's end-times theological outlook is a crock and utterly unscriptural.

I know this is a tangent, but when you put "FACT" after it, I thought I'd at least address it.

OK. Whatever. Pray to Something other than Jesus. Others that intercede for you should be praying to Jesus. According to the bible, no prayers are heard unless they go through Jesus (from a fundamentalist view). So the end result is the same, Hagee, as a fundamentalist, chooses to see the Catholic church as non-fundamentalist. So what. Many other do to. It is a HUGE difference from what Wright was preaching.

And whoever called a fundamentalism buffoonery is just like the fundamentalist saying Catholics are not true Christians. So it goes both ways.

But it still is not like saying the US created aids to kill the black man. And it damn sure ain't the same as saying God Damned America, no matter what context it was in.

So to compare the two really is stretching the point to try and deflect from the Wright controversy.

[Tiger Al 0]

OK. Whatever. Pray to Something other than Jesus. Others that intercede for you should be praying to Jesus. According to the bible, no prayers are heard unless they go through Jesus (from a fundamentalist view). So the end result is the same, Hagee, as a fundamentalist, chooses to see the Catholic church as non-fundamentalist. So what. Many other do to. It is a HUGE difference from what Wright was preaching.

And whoever called a fundamentalism buffoonery is just like the fundamentalist saying Catholics are not true Christians. So it goes both ways.

But it still is not like saying the US created aids to kill the black man. And it damn sure ain't the same as saying God Damned America, no matter what context it was in.

So to compare the two really is stretching the point to try and deflect from the Wright controversy.

Catholics don't pray to a priest. If you believe that then you're simply wrong.

No one called fundamentalism "buffoonery."

The only ones here who have made comparisons have been the Hagee apologists.

[TitanTiger 21,153]

OK. Whatever. Pray to Something other than Jesus. Others that intercede for you should be praying to Jesus.

Which is what Catholics believe the saints do. "Pray" simply means "to ask". When Catholics pray to a saint, they are asking the saint to pray for them in much the same way you might ask a friend or people on a message board you've never met to pray for you. It all goes to Jesus. They just believe that saints in heaven, who are no longer hampered by the limitations of earthly humanity and no longer struggling with sin and temptation, are able to pray in a particularly effective way. They are in God's presence in a way that we don't perceive or experience down here.

According to the bible, no prayers are heard unless they go through Jesus (from a fundamentalist view).

Well then it's a good thing Catholics believe the same thing.

So the end result is the same, Hagee, as a fundamentalist, chooses to see the Catholic church as non-fundamentalist.

I'm sure the Catholics are very thankful for that.

Honestly, when it comes to something that's different from your own life and background or something you oppose in some fashion, do ever really study the issue or CliffNotes your way through life?

[CCTAU 3,490]

OK. Whatever. Pray to Something other than Jesus. Others that intercede for you should be praying to Jesus.

Which is what Catholics believe the saints do. "Pray" simply means "to ask". When Catholics pray to a saint, they are asking the saint to pray for them in much the same way you might ask a friend or people on a message board you've never met to pray for you. It all goes to Jesus. They just believe that saints in heaven, who are no longer hampered by the limitations of earthly humanity and no longer struggling with sin and temptation, are able to pray in a particularly effective way. They are in God's presence in a way that we don't perceive or experience down here.

According to the bible, no prayers are heard unless they go through Jesus (from a fundamentalist view).

Well then it's a good thing Catholics believe the same thing.

So the end result is the same, Hagee, as a fundamentalist, chooses to see the Catholic church as non-fundamentalist.

I'm sure the Catholics are very thankful for that.

Honestly, when it comes to something that's different from your own life and background or something you oppose in some fashion, do ever really study the issue or CliffNotes your way through life?

Hey asshat, I never said "I" in any of this. There was only an explanation of how Hagee must be seeing things. I never aligned myself with Hagee. Anyone who doesn't bow down to your superior Christian beliefs always seem to incur your self-righteousness. Save it for those folks you can fool into thinking you are important.

Saints cannot pray for you because they do not exist on the same plane as you do. They are in heaven and the only way into heaven from here (word or spirit) is through Christ. That is what I was eluding to from the fundamentalist belief. Hagee subscribes to this.

So when I said "pray to something other than Jesus", I was not agreeing.

And just because Hagee sees Catholics as non-fundamentalists, does not make it right...or wrong. It's his beliefs. It is not controversy.

All religions are free to interpret the Bible their own way. But once again you were so busy proclaiming your superior Christianity that you failed to see the big issue of the difference between Hagee and Wright.

Wright's belief that aids was created by the gubment to kill black folks TRUMPS Hagee's belief that catholicism is not a correct interpretation.

[TitanTiger 21,153]

Hey asshat, I never said "I" in any of this. There was only an explanation of how Hagee must be seeing things. I never aligned myself with Hagee.

Sorry, that wasn't clear the way you were speaking. It seemed you called something he said "FACT" which indicated agreement to me. Good to know you don't buy into all that.

Anyone who doesn't bow down to your superior Christian beliefs always seem to incur your self-righteousness. Save it for those folks you can fool into thinking you are important.

It's not "my beliefs", Knothead. It's not a matter of opinion. It's simply an explanation of what the Catholic church actually teaches on the subject.

And while I'm not trying to prove my importance to anyone, I don't have to just stand here and take you talking to me like that. One guess as to how that problem will get rectified if you don't dial it down a notch.

Saints cannot pray for you because they do not exist on the same plane as you do. They are in heaven and the only way into heaven from here (word or spirit) is through Christ. That is what I was eluding to from the fundamentalist belief. Hagee subscribes to this.

So when I said "pray to something other than Jesus", I was not agreeing.

And just because Hagee sees Catholics as non-fundamentalists, does not make it right...or wrong. It's his beliefs. It is not controversy.

Except he didn't just ding them for praying to saints when saints supposedly can't pray for you, he called them the Whore of Babylon.

All religions are free to interpret the Bible their own way. But once again you were so busy proclaiming your superior Christianity that you failed to see the big issue of the difference between Hagee and Wright.

Again, it's not "my superior Christianity." If you paid more attention to what you read you would have caught that. I'm not Catholic. But I do study theology and find that if you want to know what the Catholic church actually teaches, you don't go to a fundamentalist to find out. You read the Catechism of the Catholic Church or you ask a Catholic theologian or both.

And as I also stated, though in your haste to foam at the mouth you apparently missed it, I acknowledged this part of the debate was a tangent off the original discussion. You stated part of Hagee's interpretation of someone else's theology followed by the word "FACT" and I was just clearing that up.

Read. Pause. Think. Then type.

[AUTiger1 0]

Don't know if this is the right thread or not, but......Al, TT or whoever. Does Hagee claim that it is in the scripture when he refers to the Roman Catholic Church as the "great whore"? Is it from the "Whore of Babylon" from Revelations that he is basing his belief?

[lca408 380]

Don't know if this is the right thread or not, but......Al, TT or whoever. Does Hagee claim that it is in the scripture when he refers to the Roman Catholic Church as the "great whore"? Is it from the "Whore of Babylon" from Revelations that he is basing his belief?

I think he's basing it off of what Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins "interpeted" in the Left Behind books. But yes, that is what it is in reference to. Of course, the scripture doesn't name the Church so, if he thinks this is absolute, he's . . well, ya know.

Ryan

[AUJarhead 70]

As far as confessing sins to a priest, the Catholic church doesn't teach people they can't ask confess directly to God. In fact, it's encouraged.

And done every Sunday in Church.

[Tiger Al 0]

Don't know if this is the right thread or not, but......Al, TT or whoever. Does Hagee claim that it is in the scripture when he refers to the Roman Catholic Church as the "great whore"? Is it from the "Whore of Babylon" from Revelations that he is basing his belief?

Yes.

[AUTiger1 0]

Don't know if this is the right thread or not, but......Al, TT or whoever. Does Hagee claim that it is in the scripture when he refers to the Roman Catholic Church as the "great whore"? Is it from the "Whore of Babylon" from Revelations that he is basing his belief?

Yes.

Thanks, I honestly have never heard the comment and dismissed it when I heard about it. Hagee is a religious nutjob along with several others. I figured that is where he got it from.

[Wishbone 0]

There's an interesting show on the history of Protestantism on the history channel. It really goes into the philosophical differences b/w Catholicism and Protestantism.

The Catholic Church was seen as a corrupted centralized religion that falsely spoke for God by the original Protestant faiths and still is by the modern fundamentalists. This stems from abuses from the middle ages, in which the Catholic Church was a powerful political force w/ a fully secular priesthood that was corrupt and used their positions to aquire wealth and status. The Protestant Reformation was an honest attempt to re-establish a spiritual connection with God. Before this, regular people were unable to do things like simply read the Bible.

Of course, the modern Catholic Church is no longer like this, but it changed thanks to the Protestant Reformation which essentially set into motion events which stripped the Church of its influence. Almost every event in Western history is directly linked to the Protestant Reformation. The enlightenment, the Birth of America and even the rise of Atheism and Communism can be linked to the prostestant Reformation.

[Ranger12 53]

I think he's basing it off of what Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins "interpeted" in the Left Behind books. But yes, that is what it is in reference to. Of course, the scripture doesn't name the Church so, if he thinks this is absolute, he's . . well, ya know.

Ryan

Ummm....I read every one of the Left Behind books and I don't recall the writers ever "interpreting" anything as the Catholic Church being the one world church led by the false prophet. I recall that church in the books being a religion that encompassed all religions, so I don't get where you think the writers were leading the reader to think it was the Catholic Church. Maybe I am wrong and that part just went completely over my head.

As far as the Catholic Church goes, yes I have issues with their theology. I have been in Catholic services. I married somebody from a Catholic family. Even though she has turned from some of that theology, we do go to Christmas Eve mass with her family. I have issues with how and who they pray too. You guys can debate the whole "saints" thing, but they do pray to Mary. I don't like all the man made tradition and rituals when it comes to the service or the prayers. However, I don't like the tradition and ritual and many protestant churches as well.

Now, with that said, I don't think the Catholic Church is the great whore in the Bible. I have heard others say that and I think they are wrong. Though I have issues with their theology, as I may with other Christian religions, I can still get along with them just as I would anybody else. I don't believe in spewing hatred to anybody because of their denomination because that does not express the love of Christ, which I think is the most important characteristic of Christ we can share with others.

I do think the Catholics do some things that other Christian religions should do. I like how the doors of the church are always open for those that feel the need to come in and pray. I also like the fact that the do Christmas Eve mass at midnight. I love that! I wish my church did that, but many protestant churches, or at least in my area do not. So, while I can pick out things I have serious issues with, I can also point out some things that the Catholic Church does better then many protestant churches.

[TitanTiger 21,153]

They "pray" to Mary only in the sense that they ask her to pray to Jesus for them (much like you might ask someone that you know to be an ardent, faithful follower of Christ to pray for you). They don't pray to Mary or any other saint in the expectation that the saint themselves has any power to do something themselves. At least that's what the church teaches. As with Protestants though, sometimes lay people allow superstition or other flawed theology to enter the equation.

[Ranger12 53]

Titan, I have heard that tried to be explained that way before and I am just going to respectfully disagree with you. I have heard the prayers too many times. I have heard things prayed to Mary and asking Mary for things. Sorry, but that does not wash with me. Asking somebody on earth to pray for you is not the same as praying to Mary because she is not on earth. I do not believe anybody in heaven can hear your prayers to answer them but God. Asking for others to pray with you or for you is Biblical. Praying to saints and Mary, who are not on earth, but in Heaven is not.

"No man comes to the Father except by me". In other words, there is no reason to pray to anybody in Heaven to intercede for us. That is why Jesus died for us and we go straight to him. Anytime Jesus talked about prayer, he never mentioned praying to anybody but the Father. There is a reason Christ teaches of the Holy Trinity, meaning three. I don't recall any more people being amended to that. So, why ask Mary to lift you up to Jesus when you can just go straight to Jesus yourself. Like I said, isn't that one of the reasons Christ gave his life on the cross for us?

Also, to call Mary the "Mother of God", is also an issue with me. Mary gave birth to Christ when he became flesh so he could be the eternal sacrifice for our sins. She is not the Mother of God.

Like I said, I could pick apart other religions also, so Catholicism is not alone in its faults. As far as I am concerned not Christian religion is as perfect as the One they worship.

[TitanTiger 21,153]

Titan, I have heard that tried to be explained that way before and I am just going to respectfully disagree with you. I have heard the prayers too many times. I have heard things prayed to Mary and asking Mary for things. Sorry, but that does not wash with me.

Again, what individuals do is not the same as what a church or denomination actually teaches. Neither the Catechism of the Catholic Church nor any teaching or official document of the church allows for this.

Asking somebody on earth to pray for you is not the same as praying to Mary because she is not on earth. I do not believe anybody in heaven can hear your prayers to answer them but God. Asking for others to pray with you or for you is Biblical. Praying to saints and Mary, who are not on earth, but in Heaven is not.

Except there's nothing in Scripture to back up that claim. I don't know for sure obviously, but there are indications in Scripture that saints in heaven can see and hear what's going on down here on earth. Hebrews speaks our predecessors in the faith from Moses to Abraham to David and Samuel and so on then in says, "Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us..."

If they aren't witnessing what we are doing (seeing and hearing), why use that word. Catholics simply believe that when we say "the communion of saints" in the Apostle's Creed, in includes all who are in Christ, whether alive here on earth or alive in heaven.

I may not be totally sold or pray to saints myself, but the biblical evidence against it simply isn't there.

"No man comes to the Father except by me". In other words, there is no reason to pray to anybody in Heaven to intercede for us. That is why Jesus died for us and we go straight to him. Anytime Jesus talked about prayer, he never mentioned praying to anybody but the Father.

Then you probably shouldn't ask people on earth to intercede for you either since that would not qualify as "going straight to Him." You've implored an intermediary to offer prayers on your behalf.

Or it could be that it's perfectly fine if someone wishes to ask a saint in heaven to pray for them AND they themselves pray directly to Jesus, just like it's ok for you to ask me to pray for you without any danger of you "not going directly to God."

There is a reason Christ teaches of the Holy Trinity, meaning three. I don't recall any more people being amended to that. So, why ask Mary to lift you up to Jesus when you can just go straight to Jesus yourself. Like I said, isn't that one of the reasons Christ gave his life on the cross for us?

See above. If your take on this is right, then asking anyone to intercede for us is wrong, whether on heaven or on earth.

Also, to call Mary the "Mother of God", is also an issue with me. Mary gave birth to Christ when he became flesh so he could be the eternal sacrifice for our sins. She is not the Mother of God.

Actually, this is something most Protestants believe apart from any belief about praying to saints. And it's an important doctrine to hold to, IMO. Because the doctrine wasn't formulated to elevate Mary, but to protect our understanding of the nature of Jesus.

As Christians were coming to a greater understanding of such things, questions would arise from time to time about how Jesus was both God and man. Not half God and half man, mind you, but 100% God and 100% man simultaneously. But some people wanted to deny this. They came up with explanations like Jesus was two people occupying the same mind (Nestorianism), that Jesus was merely God disguised as a man, but not really human (various Gnostic views) or that Jesus was not fully divine (Arianism). The problem with this was that it threatened the very witness of the Church and could even lead logically to the notion that there were two Sons of God, the man Jesus and the divine Son of God who was sharing a room with Him in His head. In short, it was a doorway to theological chaos over one of the most basic truths of the Faith: that the Word became flesh, died, and rose for our sins.

So the Church responded (which is how most of the key foundational doctrines came about...to protect the teachings about Jesus the Apostles handed down to us.) First, Jesus Christ is not two persons occupying the same head. He is one person possessing two natures, human and divine, joined in a hypostatic union. This is a belief all Protestants share. One of the key creeds of Christianity, the Athanasian Creed, affirms this. Second, it was appropriate to therefore call Mary Theotokos (Mother of God) because she's the Mother of the God-Man. When Jesus had His friends over for lunch, He didn't introduce Mary saying, "This is the mother of my human nature." He said, "This is my mother."

The doctrine of Mary as the Mother of God is a commentary on Jesus, a sort of "hedge" around the truth about Jesus articulated by the Christians since the beginning of the Church. You take out "Mother of God" and try to limit it to "Mother of Christ" or "Mother of the human Jesus" and the other domino that falls is the understanding of the immutable union of Christ's human and divine natures in one nature, inseparable.