College students and Professors have entirely different expectations

[Tigermike 4,304]

Most of us here have attended and graduated from college, some here are professors. What do you think of this?

Student Expectations Seen as Causing Grade Disputes

By MAX ROOSEVELT

Published: February 17, 2009

Prof. Marshall Grossman has come to expect complaints whenever he returns graded papers in his English classes at the University of Maryland.

“Many students come in with the conviction that they’ve worked hard and deserve a higher mark,” Professor Grossman said. “Some assert that they have never gotten a grade as low as this before.”

He attributes those complaints to his students’ sense of entitlement.

“I tell my classes that if they just do what they are supposed to do and meet the standard requirements, that they will earn a C,” he said. “That is the default grade. They see the default grade as an A.”

A recent study by researchers at the University of California, Irvine, found that a third of students surveyed said that they expected B’s just for attending lectures, and 40 percent said they deserved a B for completing the required reading.

“I noticed an increased sense of entitlement in my students and wanted to discover what was causing it,” said Ellen Greenberger, the lead author of the study, called “Self-Entitled College Students: Contributions of Personality, Parenting, and Motivational Factors,” which appeared last year in The Journal of Youth and Adolescence.

Professor Greenberger said that the sense of entitlement could be related to increased parental pressure, competition among peers and family members and a heightened sense of achievement anxiety.

Aaron M. Brower, the vice provost for teaching and learning at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, offered another theory.

“I think that it stems from their K-12 experiences,” Professor Brower said. “They have become ultra-efficient in test preparation. And this hyper-efficiency has led them to look for a magic formula to get high scores.”

James Hogge, associate dean of the Peabody School of Education at Vanderbilt University, said: “Students often confuse the level of effort with the quality of work. There is a mentality in students that ‘if I work hard, I deserve a high grade.’ “

In line with Dean Hogge’s observation are Professor Greenberger’s test results. Nearly two-thirds of the students surveyed said that if they explained to a professor that they were trying hard, that should be taken into account in their grade.

Jason Greenwood, a senior kinesiology major at the University of Maryland echoed that view.

“I think putting in a lot of effort should merit a high grade,” Mr. Greenwood said. “What else is there really than the effort that you put in?”

“If you put in all the effort you have and get a C, what is the point?” he added. “If someone goes to every class and reads every chapter in the book and does everything the teacher asks of them and more, then they should be getting an A like their effort deserves. If your maximum effort can only be average in a teacher’s mind, then something is wrong.”

Sarah Kinn, a junior English major at the University of Vermont, agreed, saying, “I feel that if I do all of the readings and attend class regularly that I should be able to achieve a grade of at least a B.”

At Vanderbilt, there is an emphasis on what Dean Hogge calls “the locus of control.” The goal is to put the academic burden on the student.

“Instead of getting an A, they make an A,” he said. “Similarly, if they make a lesser grade, it is not the teacher’s fault. Attributing the outcome of a failure to someone else is a common problem.”

Additionally, Dean Hogge said, “professors often try to outline the ‘rules of the game’ in their syllabi,” in an effort to curb haggling over grades.

Professor Brower said professors at Wisconsin emphasized that students must “read for knowledge and write with the goal of exploring ideas.”

This informal mission statement, along with special seminars for freshmen, is intended to help “re-teach students about what education is.”

The seminars are integrated into introductory courses. Examples include the conventional, like a global-warming seminar, and the more obscure, like physics in religion.

The seminars “are meant to help students think differently about their classes and connect them to real life,” Professor Brower said.

He said that if students developed a genuine interest in their field, grades would take a back seat, and holistic and intrinsically motivated learning could take place.

“College students want to be part of a different and better world, but they don’t know how,” he said. “Unless teachers are very intentional with our goals, we play into the system in place.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/18/educatio...rss&emc=rss

[CCTAU 3,883]

I refuse to take any English professor seriously. Most grade off of what they see as the correct form or style. If they just graded on correct structure and form and not their opinion, I could live with it.

So I do not doubt he has complainers. But I do doubt it is just due to entitlement. Let four different professors grade the same paper and you will get four different and varying grades.

I do not dispute the culture of entitlement, I just have an issue with it coming form an English professor.

[autigeremt 7,551]

College professors and students alike have subjective judgement at times to go along with this obvious problem. Many professors here at Auburn remark on this very same thing. It's not as common in their mind here as it is in other areas of the country, but it's here, and it's noted.

I have an intern who told me a story yesterday of a professor who used his own liberal mindset to teach his ideals without exploring an alternative. It happened to be about Sept. 11th. He showed them the "conspiracy" video about how the government staged the 911 incident and then tested them on the material. He was confronted by several parents when they found out, only to isolate those students who had conservative points of view. It was something that's typical in todays classroom, but to hear her tell it on this campus made me very suspect of a lot of professors in the country. Teach and create, but do not infuse your own, personal ideology in the classroom.

[PChamp119 96]

If you read all the readings (which not many students do) and attend class every day (which not many students do), but perform horribly on tests, what do you expect?

Students love to complain. Personally, I worked my ass off at Auburn and it showed. I had a high GPA and was top of my class in my specific major. I read most of the readings and attended every class. I got lots of A's, a few B's and 2 C's. I felt I got the grades I deserved. I saw my fellow students who didn't understand what was going on in our engineering classes, but because they attended class they felt they deserved better grades. That is pathetic. Just because you show up doesn't mean you understand.

Case in point - in my Electrical Engineering class (required for most engineering majors), I understood the first 2 or so chapters perfectly. After that, I didn't understand CRAP. I went to every class and read every chapter. But it just didn't "click." I got a B in the class because our teacher graded papers VERY easily (to the student's favor - I recall once I just rewrote the problem down to 'show my work' and maybe did one small calculation and I got like half credit on a 20 pt question). I deserved a C in that class based on my knowledge of the class. But I did everything the teacher asked me to do. Should I have gotten an A? Not at all. I did jumping jacks when I saw I got a B. Same when I had Engineering Physics II. That class was tough as hell. Our professor scaled a lot because most of the grades were in the F or D range. I pulled out a C when most of my exams were between the 50's and 70s. More jumping jacks when I got that C.

[Tigermike 4,304]

“I think putting in a lot of effort should merit a high grade,” Mr. Greenwood said. “What else is there really than the effort that you put in?”

“If you put in all the effort you have and get a C, what is the point?” he added. “If someone goes to every class and reads every chapter in the book and does everything the teacher asks of them and more, then they should be getting an A like their effort deserves. If your maximum effort can only be average in a teacher’s mind, then something is wrong.”

Sarah Kinn, a junior English major at the University of Vermont, agreed, saying, “I feel that if I do all of the readings and attend class regularly that I should be able to achieve a grade of at least a B.”

It seems to me the argument is, show up, do the minimum (i.e. all you are asked to do) and you should get an “A”, or at least a “B”.

Merit? Above and beyond the “average” or the “expected”? They don’t seem to enter into their thinking at all.

Where do they get that screwy idea that “level of effort equals quality work”?

A side note.

My twin grandsons have been living with me since last summer. They are 12 and in the 6th grade. I try to teach them, to get them to understand that education comes from studying more than the minimum set out by the teachers. Do more, read more, research more and you will learn and understand more and as a result make better grades. One of them studies extra, reads extra, is excited about learning and consequently he is on the A - B (3 points in one subject away from all A honor roll.) The other young man is doing the minimum required and while he is passing, he is not making the A - B honor roll.

In this situation I would have to say the level of effort does in fact equal quality of work. I also have to say the grandson doing the minimum doesn't think he should be on the honor roll just because he has done the minimum required. He has watched his brother and can see the results of the effort.

[Bottomfeeder 244]

Cal-based Physics I, II and III are tough, however I found Physics I to be the hardest.

[autiger4life 3]

I completely agree that just because you show up for class and do the readings that you shouldn't get a certain grade.

On the other hand I despise when professors explain to us that a C is the average and if we put in the average amount of work then we will get a C. That is complete BS. A "C" average will get you on social probabation, the average and the median at Auburn is not a C, and putting in average work should not warrant a C. I guess my problem is not with professors but more with the notion that a C is average, because it isn't. I frankly have had classes where I barely did anything and got an A, and I have had classes where I busted my tail and got a C(geology, it is actually not rocks for jocks). I understand some are harder than others and I like that most require logic skills and critical thinking, not just memorization, but a C shouldn't ever be considered average. When I get a C, it usually feels like I failed.

[autigeremt 7,551]

autiger4life makes a great point. I see it all the time, and I had a few of those myself.

[CCTAU 3,883]

autiger4life makes a great point. I see it all the time, and I had a few of those myself.

Ya'll bite me. I finally graduated. Granted, it was in the back with the thankyalawdies, but I made it.

[quietfan 233]

“I think putting in a lot of effort should merit a high grade,” Mr. Greenwood said. “What else is there really than the effort that you put in?”

“If you put in all the effort you have and get a C, what is the point?” he added. “If someone goes to every class and reads every chapter in the book and does everything the teacher asks of them and more, then they should be getting an A like their effort deserves. If your maximum effort can only be average in a teacher’s mind, then something is wrong.”

Sarah Kinn, a junior English major at the University of Vermont, agreed, saying, “I feel that if I do all of the readings and attend class regularly that I should be able to achieve a grade of at least a B.”

I've decided I deserve an NFL contract. Sure I'm nearly 55 years old and I may not be able to produce touchdowns like a pro-bowler, but if I work harder than anyone else, shouldn't I get a fat contract for my efforts..?

In the real world, is your employer going to look at how many hours you put in, or what kind of results you generate?

I once had a student who, unfortunately, was just not finishing his tests in the alloted amount of time even though everyone else in the class found the allowed time more than adequate. He was adamant that he understood all the material, he could do all the work, and he studied his a$$ off, but it wasn't fair to discriminate against him simply because he was slower than every other student. (And we're not talking about any diagnosed learning disability or anything like that.) Knowing that he was a senior and would be asking me for letters of reference in his job hunting soon, I responded: "Well, I can't change your grade, but I sympathize with you and I tell you what--next time you want me to write a letter for a prospective employer, I'll be sure to explain that you can eventually get the work done, but you're just going to be slower than every other candidate applying for the position." The student stopped complaining after that...and, incidentally, started working much faster on test day--which makes one wonder if he was really applying himself as diligently and doing as much prep work as as he had originally claimed.

...Also had a student who insisted it just wasn't possible for her to get to class on time and was always 10 minutes late to everything in her life no matter how hard she tried. Miraculously, she also was able to overcome her time handicap when I used the same "I sympathize and will be sure to explain that to your future employers" argument.

Of course we're raising a generation that believes in entitlement--after all, isn't it their birthright to be handed a brand new car when they're 16, get a free cell phone as soon as they are old enough to "text", have all the sex they want, replace their video game equipment every time a newer model comes out, and get only a slap on the wrist if they break the law as a minor?

[autigeremt 7,551]

autiger4life makes a great point. I see it all the time, and I had a few of those myself.

Ya'll bite me. I finally graduated. Granted, it was in the back with the thankyalawdies, but I made it.

Nothing wrong with that

[CarolinaTiger 0]

On the other hand I despise when professors explain to us that a C is the average and if we put in the average amount of work then we will get a C. That is complete BS. A "C" average will get you on social probabation,

...

When I get a C, it usually feels like I failed.

i totally relate to everything the profs said in the article. the sense of entitlement is strong and growing among many of the students I teach. i saw a student's evaluation yesterday that said, "part of the grade should be on effort", and i actually LOL'ed. i tell my MBA students all the time that effort won't mean much when they arrive at a stupid conclusion or recommendation...it's a tough lesson for many of them to learn.

Yet, what i've highlighted in 4life's quote above is also unfortunately very true. Colleges have started putting overall GPA requirements on students that are sometimes as high as a 3.0, thereby signaling that a grade below a "B" is unacceptable. I argued against this at my school, but to no avail. We went further to say that you can only make two "C"s in the program before you get booted. IMO, that's exactly the wrong approach to combating grade inflation.

When students complain to me about their effort > grade, I remind them that the most important part of their answer was the correctness of it, not how long they worked to get the wrong answer.

[CircleDrill 180]

When you give a student a syllabus, you are saying "These are the rules, and here is how your grade will be determined." If they don't like it, they should bring it up then or drop the class. Not at the end of the semester. Just saying. 4 months after you got the syllabus is a little late to be complaining about how your grade is determined.

Students also do not understand grade distribution or grading on a curve. If they did, then they would understand that everybody in the class can have the same work level, but some are going to excel and some fail based on the quality and correctness of their work.

The students raise a good point, though. How can you be valedictorian with a 4.2 GPA (impossible but happens all the time) in your high school and you come to college and make poor grades? Answer = All you have to do in high school is show up and try.

[autigeremt 7,551]

Entitlement is that smell out there.....it's the rotting away of the American soul.

If history is correct, then I predict a period of civil unrest in this country in the coming years. God I hope not, but it seems to be the norm when times like this reer up at us. We must be strong, and vigilant.

[autiger4life 3]

i totally relate to everything the profs said in the article. the sense of entitlement is strong and growing among many of the students I teach. i saw a student's evaluation yesterday that said, "part of the grade should be on effort", and i actually LOL'ed. i tell my MBA students all the time that effort won't mean much when they arrive at a stupid conclusion or recommendation...it's a tough lesson for many of them to learn.

Yet, what i've highlighted in 4life's quote above is also unfortunately very true. Colleges have started putting overall GPA requirements on students that are sometimes as high as a 3.0, thereby signaling that a grade below a "B" is unacceptable. I argued against this at my school, but to no avail. We went further to say that you can only make two "C"s in the program before you get booted. IMO, that's exactly the wrong approach to combating grade inflation.

When students complain to me about their effort > grade, I remind them that the most important part of their answer was the correctness of it, not how long they worked to get the wrong answer.

I agree that effort should never go into the grade. As a student who has co-oped, I have seen how little effort matters if you still end up costing the company money.

When you give a student a syllabus, you are saying "These are the rules, and here is how your grade will be determined." If they don't like it, they should bring it up then or drop the class. Not at the end of the semester. Just saying. 4 months after you got the syllabus is a little late to be complaining about how your grade is determined.

I am not sure if you were responding to me or not, but if so I would like to clarify what I was saying. I never have problems with a professor's syllabus. S/he can grade in whatever way they please. My problem is when the syllabus clearly says that there are 4 test each worth 25% of my grade and I get 90's on all of them yet get a B in the class because the professor didn't like that I didn't participate in class because I wasn't there. It was not listed on the syllabus about attendance or participation yet I am punished for it. This has happened several times.

I also don't think it is fair when a professor will round the 89 to a 90 of a student who was in class every day but not round my 89 to a 90 because I didn't show up. If it is not on they syllabus that attendance is required then I should not be punished for it. If it is, then I will be there or expect negative consequences.

I don't feel like I deserve anything except a professor who follows their rules and treats students equally instead of playing favorites.

[outoftowntiger 0]

I also don't think it is fair when a professor will round the 89 to a 90 of a student who was in class every day but not round my 89 to a 90 because I didn't show up. If it is not on they syllabus that attendance is required then I should not be punished for it. If it is, then I will be there or expect negative consequences.

I could be mistaken, but it sounds like you earned an 89 and are not being "rewarded". That is different from earning a 90 and being "punished"...am I right? However, I agree that professors should be forthright about their intentions to "bump" scores for what they perceive to be high effort.

[Tigermike 4,304]

I also don't think it is fair when a professor will round the 89 to a 90 of a student who was in class every day but not round my 89 to a 90 because I didn't show up. If it is not on they syllabus that attendance is required then I should not be punished for it. If it is, then I will be there or expect negative consequences.

I don't feel like I deserve anything except a professor who follows their rules and treats students equally instead of playing favorites.

While reading over this thread, I couldn't help but think of this:

Matthew 20:1-16

10But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.

11And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,

12Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.

13But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?

14Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.

15Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

16So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

[autiger4life 3]

I could be mistaken, but it sounds like you earned an 89 and are not being "rewarded". That is different from earning a 90 and being "punished"...am I right? However, I agree that professors should be forthright about their intentions to "bump" scores for what they perceive to be high effort.

Sometimes I feel like you people are more looking for it to be there than it ever is. I am not looking for any award or punishment.

My point was not that if I receive an 89 that I should get a 90, if I get an 89.99999 I am perfectly happy with an 89 on my transcript because that is what I earned. My point was that if the syllabus does not mention attendance mattering, then it should not matter. I have had professors say that attendance does not matter and then at the end of the semester say, I have been keeping up and if you have come to class and are on the edge I will bump you. I think that is unfair. I personally prefer the professor to just give the grade that we get because there have been too many times where the professor will give a bump to one student and not another, and I don't think that is right.

So no, I was not saying I deserve the bump, I was saying that I deserve for the professor to be forthcoming and fair with all students.

And once again, if the professor says attendance matters, then I am A-okay with that too. I just need them to tell me what they want and actually mean it.

[CircleDrill 180]

My point was that if the syllabus does not mention attendance mattering, then it should not matter.

Actually I was not responding to anyone. However, I agree with the above point. If it "matters" then it should be in the syllabus. You should not tell the student 4 tests X 25% each = 100% of your grade if that is not accurate.

I don't do percentages. I do points. The syllabus lists exactly how many points each project, assignment, or test is worth. I give more points to the items that require more work. Attendance is not part of the grade, but the ones that come to class do better overall because they know what is going on.

I can see how a student would have a legit complaint if attendance was being considered in the grade but was not in the syllabus, though.

[quietfan 233]

Sometimes I feel like you people are more looking for it to be there than it ever is. I am not looking for any award or punishment.

My point was not that if I receive an 89 that I should get a 90, if I get an 89.99999 I am perfectly happy with an 89 on my transcript because that is what I earned. My point was that if the syllabus does not mention attendance mattering, then it should not matter. I have had professors say that attendance does not matter and then at the end of the semester say, I have been keeping up and if you have come to class and are on the edge I will bump you. I think that is unfair. I personally prefer the professor to just give the grade that we get because there have been too many times where the professor will give a bump to one student and not another, and I don't think that is right.

So no, I was not saying I deserve the bump, I was saying that I deserve for the professor to be forthcoming and fair with all students.

And once again, if the professor says attendance matters, then I am A-okay with that too. I just need them to tell me what they want and actually mean it.

For what it's worth, I wish more of my students had your attitude! And for years when I was chair of my department, some of my worst administrative headaches involved student complaints regarding other professors who "creatively interpreted" their own syllabus.

One of the problems with "rounding" scores is that those just below the cut off always want to be included. First the 89.9's want to be rounded to 90...once one starts doing that, then the 89.5'ers say "Why aren't we included?"...drop it to 89.5, and the 89.3's chime in...drop to 89, and the 88.5's say "Why wasn't I rounded up to 89 and given an "A"?...then the 88.2's demand to be round up like the 88.5's...etc., etc., etc. Anytime there is a cut off/boundary, those who just miss it will think they should be given a "bump".

One of my pet peeves: Students who come to me with the story "If you don't give me a "B" (or whatever) in your class, you'll prevent me from graduating this semester". Wrong! If your GPA keeps you from graduating on time, it's because of your entire college career efforts, not any one class. For years, my standard schtick on the first day of class, when I discuss the syllabus, has been to ask the class: "Looking at the grading scale, how many points do you get for being a graduating senior?...for being an athlete?...for being busy with SGA or fraternity offices?...for having children at home to raise?...for doing an extra book report or washing my car?...etc., etc., etc." Make it crystal clear on the first day of class, and you won't have students asking for special consideration on the last day of class!

[CircleDrill 180]

or washing my car?

Hmmm, that might be worth .10 on your final grade, depending on whether you vacuum and hand wax or not.

[Tigermike 4,304]

or washing my car?

Hmmm, that might be worth .10 on your final grade, depending on whether you vacuum and hand wax or not.

But then they would want .10 for the wash, .10 for the vacuum and .10 for the wax job.

[CircleDrill 180]

I am going to let this video speak for itself.

Branford Marsalis is an incredible musician, as are all of his brothers and his father. They are all heavily involved with music performance and music education. IOW, he can back up his words with skills so he knows what he is talking about.

[autiger4life 3]

"Looking at the grading scale, how many points do you get for being a graduating senior?...for being an athlete?...for being busy with SGA or fraternity offices?...for having children at home to raise?...for doing an extra book report or washing my car?

Haha, that is awesome. I wish I had a professor who would say that.