Scarbo on Oversigning

[jared52 4,358]

Focus here is on Saban's tactics and uat's refusal to turn over scholarship records to the media.

I do like how the Big Ten requires substantial reasons to oversign.

http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2011/02/scarbinsky_alabamas_dont-tell.html

[Raven_tiger 5]

the bammers are really lathered up over this article. How dare anyone one question Saban practices??? Alabama is the ONLY school not to divulge the number of atheletes on scholorship??? Come on Nicky...

[ShocksMyBrain 9,519]

I retract what I've said about Scarb in the past.

It's funny seeing the bamzos up in arms over this, and then trying to spin it around and somehow blame Auburn for it.

[AUgrad00 7]

the bammers are really lathered up over this article. How dare anyone one question Saban practices??? Alabama is the ONLY school not to divulge the number of atheletes on scholorship??? Come on Nicky...

Where is the media? Great article by Scarbinky why the hell does the media not just ask this guy face to face in a presser about this?

Again I would love to be a parent and have this snake oil salesman come recruit my kind. First question, coach considering your track record how do I know you will be my sons coach for the next four to five years?

Coach considering your track record and the fact scholarships are renewable yearly how do I know that I will have a scholarship the entire time or if you get a better player I may have to greyshirt?

What he does while not against NCAA rules to me is pretty unethical and if AU coaches are doing they are to. Of course its about on par with this guy.

[AUgrad00 7]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnlYwinkl-E&playnext=1&list=PLF36085B3F7077B0B

[AU alum 2]

the bammers are really lathered up over this article. How dare anyone one question Saban practices??? Alabama is the ONLY school not to divulge the number of atheletes on scholorship??? Come on Nicky...

They really are. Heaven forbid anyone would think that anything they do is not perfect. They think that Scarbinski is against SPUAT? Let's count his columns.........

[rtftiger 40]

The ESPN piece is really interesting. One of the things that makes it interesting is that Randy Shannon was one of the ESPN commentators for signing day coverage, but he declined to be interviewed.

Wow. ESPN needs a real competitor.

[AUgrad00 7]

The ESPN piece is really interesting. One of the things that makes it interesting is that Randy Shannon was one of the ESPN commentators for signing day coverage, but he declined to be interviewed.

Wow. ESPN needs a real competitor.

Yea I love Les Miles slurring the kid out the door. Classless. I wish the SEC would get a hold on this crap.

[AUgrad00 7]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704243904575630593438793612.html

Here is a documented example of Nick Saban lying. Either he is lying or four players are take your pick.

[AUgrad00 7]

One more interesting link:

http://oversigning.com/testing/

To much to post here but Saban claims they were NOT at 85 last season but yet he gave medical redshirts to four players and greyshirted three players. So he implies they are under the scholarship limit yet he "CUT" seven players.

Lie of all Lies "We have never gotten rid of a player because of his physical ability" Oh okay.

[Mikey 16,781]

Of course Saban is lying, lying is part of the Bammer Way.

I guess I'll have to be different about this but: I was on an academic scholarship at Auburn. Grades fall below a 3.0 average for two consecutive quarters and you were out of luck. I see no problem in not renewing the scholarship of a player that doesn't have the physical or mental ability to help the team.

As much as I despise $aban, he's doing those guys a favor by offering a medical hardship scholly. He would be well within his rights to just kick 'em out in the street and save the money.

Let's don't be too sanctimonious about this deal. One more year of recruiting like these last two and we'll have to start getting creative with numbers.

[Raven_tiger 5]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704243904575630593438793612.html

Here is a documented example of Nick Saban lying. Either he is lying or four players are take your pick.

Mr. Saban...haha

[AUgrad00 7]

Of course Saban is lying, lying is part of the Bammer Way.

I guess I'll have to be different about this but: I was on an academic scholarship at Auburn. Grades fall below a 3.0 average for two consecutive quarters and you were out of luck. I see no problem in not renewing the scholarship of a player that doesn't have the physical or mental ability to help the team.

As much as I despise $aban, he's doing those guys a favor by offering a medical hardship scholly. He would be well within his rights to just kick 'em out in the street and save the money.

Let's don't be too sanctimonious about this deal. One more year of recruiting like these last two and we'll have to start getting creative with numbers.

To point one I agree if coaches are upfront about that but do you really believe Saban told Cyrus hey bro if you dont cut it by year two and we get a better player we will not renew your scholarship? If coaches want to do this fine but are they under some sort of moral imperative to disclose that during the recruiting process??

To your second point he recently had a player greyshirted that signed with Kentucky because he knew nothing of getting greyshirted that the opportunity you talking about?

To your final point when you say "creative" in regards to roster management. Simple solution dont sign more players then you have scholarships available. You dont screw the players you dont sell your integrity and you do not have to worry about roster management. It was Mark Richt who recently said schools were offering scholarships like Candy.

I wish the SEC would adapt the Big Ten model: If a Big Ten school oversigns, it has to explain to the conference office how it will have a scholarship available when those extra signees hit campus. Banking on a certain number of players to create their own exit strategies before fall camp doesn't cut it.

On signing day Pat Fitzgerald said we signed 17 we now are at 85 scholarship players. How hard is that?

[RunInRed 18,089]

Doyel also brings the lumber...

Parents should be solution, not problem, in scummy recruiting

By Gregg Doyel

CBSSports.com National Columnist

College football recruiting is a scummy business. We all know that. But some seedy developments last week showed that it'll only get scummier -- that it has already become scummier -- because the solution has become part of the problem.

Parents are the solution, or one possible solution. But they were a problem last week in three recruiting stories that involved -- as these things always seem to involve -- schools from the SEC.

In one case we had a parent forging her son's signature on a letter of intent to a school where he didn't want to go. In two others, we had parents disagreeing with their kids' choice of schools, and moving their argument from the family dinner table to the national media.

This kind of pressure from parents adds a layer of grime to a business that is already so dirty, fans would be appalled if they knew the details. A college recruiting class is filled much like a hot dog. How did it happen? Trust me, you don't want to know.

There's over-signing, where a team -- usually in the SEC, for some reason -- signs more players than it has available scholarships, believing that some of their recruits will fail to qualify or make bail. And if everyone does qualify and stay out trouble, well, the college coach cuts an upperclassman. Or tells a recruit he can't come.

And over-signing is legal. So is the poaching of recruits from other schools, kids who orally committed to one school but continue to get called, courted, confused by another school. Also legal is the pressure from college coaches to high school players -- grown-ass men leaning on 17-year-olds to visit now, commit now, or that scholarship we promised you will go to some kid in another city, a kid who's willing to make a commitment that you're not ready to make, son. Biggest mistake of your life, right here, unless you commit to us. Right now.

And then there's the illegal stuff that goes on, stuff I know is going on, you know is going on, the NCAA knows is going on. But if the pay-for-play is done without a paper trail, it's uncatchable as long as everyone involved keeps their mouth shut. Is your school doing it? Possibly, sure. An assistant coach if not the head coach. Or a booster if not an assistant coach.

It's filthy, recruiting in college football. It's a hot dog that fell off the table and rolled under the refrigerator. You're not going to eat that thing. Just leave it under the fridge -- pretend you never saw it roll there. Ignorance is bliss.

But it's hard to ignore this latest development in recruiting, the helicopter parents -- they hover, get it? -- who decide their kid ought to pick the parents' favorite school. If the kid wants to go there, all the better. Then again, who cares? Mom wants it, or Dad wants it, and they brought that kid into this world. If he doesn't pick the right school they can take him out.

That must be what Brent Calloway was thinking when he signed with his dad's top choice, Alabama, over his own preference, Auburn. Calloway went with his dad's choice despite the fact that Alabama wanted him to play defense, and Calloway sees himself as Auburn saw him -- as a tailback. Calloway had other reasons to want Auburn. His adopted brother attends a school 20 minutes from Auburn, and he'd made friends with several Auburn recruits. Calloway was so set against Alabama that, when he picked Auburn last month, he signaled his choice by grabbing an Auburn hat instead of hats from two other schools -- neither of them Alabama.

Alabama wasn't even a finalist, and then it was his choice on signing day. Why? Because his father -- sorry, his adopted father, a music minister who has a history of adopting future college athletes -- wanted him to honor a commitment he had made to Alabama more than a year earlier. His father went public with that, telling newspaper reporters that he expected his son to fulfill his commitment to Alabama.

Ultimately Calloway did just that. He picked Alabama, because that's what his God-fearing father expected from him. Shame on the father, but shame somewhat on the son as well. It's your life, Brent Calloway. Try to live it that way.

Jacoby Brissett sure did. His mom wanted him to play for Miami, but Brissett -- one of the top quarterbacks in the country -- preferred Florida. After Jacoby picked the Gators late last week, his mom whined to the media that Florida was "not my choice. I'm very disappointed. I didn't like the way Florida handled the process."

What, specifically, did Brissett's mom not like? This: Florida head coach Will Muschamp never met her in person.

Swear to God, that was her problem.

Muschamp had been the Florida coach for only seven weeks. Since coming from Texas he'd been flying all over the country, driving all over the state, trying to keep Urban Meyer's recruits and win some news ones for himself. Apparently he didn't have time to meet the parents of every kid he was recruiting. What's it to Brissett's mom?

"I'm just hurt with the whole process," she said.

Breaking my heart, mom. If you were smarter -- more conniving -- you'd have done what Floyd Raven's mom did and simply forged your son's signature on a letter of intent to Miami. That's what Raven's mom did for Ole Miss, signing her son's name and faxing the LOI to Ole Miss. Problem was, Raven wanted to play for Texas A&M.

"Mom wanted him here in the worst way," said Ole Miss coach Houston Nutt, which begs the question: Why?

The Raven subterfuge surfaced when Ole Miss couldn't read the name on the dotted line and called Raven's house, asking for another LOI. Another one wasn't coming -- Raven signed his own this time, and sent it to Texas A&M. Raven has said his mom didn't know he had changed his mind away from the Rebels to the Aggies. He said she was just trying to help him on a busy day. He called it "an honest mistake."

Here's the thing with college football recruiting: Mistakes happen all the time, yes -- but only a fool would believe they're honest.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/story/14659868/parents-should-be-solution-not-problem-in-scummy-recruiting

[AcctTiger 0]

Oversigning is ok if it is not abused...you are ensuring you fill the 85 limit or stay as close to it as possible. Here is quick comparison...

Alabama is losing roughly 12 kids (seniors and juniors)...so they should sign 12-15 kids in 2011...They signed 22. That puts them 10 over the 85 limit.

In contrast....Auburn is losing 22 seniors and 3 juniors...so i see no problem signing 25-28 kids...AU signed 24. This puts them under the 85 limit.

Attrition in a program will take care of oversiging a few players.....Saban is not letting attrition happen at a natural rate. He is constantly putting himself in a situation that ensures he must initiate the attrition by cutting players...he does this by encouraging kids to transfer, greyshirting, & giving medical scholarships.

This is nothing more than cutting kids who are not "major contributors" for younger kids who "could contribute" and help the program. Essentially that is what an NFL does with free agency and the draft.

If Neil Caudle, Bart Eddins, and Kodi Burns had been playing for Alabama....i feel certain everyone of those players would have been encouraged to transfer or given a medical scholorship. They would not graduate as an active football player.

I think the following would help reduced the abuse of oversigning...

-Limiting the number of greyshirts

-Allow kids who are designated by a university as greyshirts to have contact with other schools who can offer them a scholarship in the fall and allow them to accept a scholarship from said school as long as they have not enrolled in your university.

-Stricter regulation of medical scholarships

[UA-CT 1]

Here are the numbers for the past five years

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/andy_staples/01/24/oversigning-data/index.html

We Averaged 26.2 while you guys averaged 28.8. Ole Miss was the highest in the SEC, averaging 29. Remember Ole Miss signed 37 in 2009.

[AUgrad00 7]

Here are the numbers for the past five years

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/andy_staples/01/24/oversigning-data/index.html

We Averaged 26.2 while you guys averaged 28.8. Ole Miss was the highest in the SEC, averaging 29. Remember Ole Miss signed 37 in 2009.

All this said AU was still like ten under scholarship in Chizik's first season. What this fails to take into account is players lost.

That said if AU promises a recruit and yanks the scholarship if the kid does all that is expected of him thats bullcrap to.

[ShocksMyBrain 9,519]

Shon Coleman would have been long gone under saban's reign.

[ECEstudentUA 9]

dont even start with the oversigning is wrong bs. Auburn has over signed 4 of the last 5 years. A scholy is not a 4 year contract. Its a scholy for one year, with the chance of getting the next year based on performance. Alabama does it, Auburn does it, the SEC does it.

[Mikey 16,781]

Here are the numbers for the past five years

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/andy_staples/01/24/oversigning-data/index.html

We Averaged 26.2 while you guys averaged 28.8. Ole Miss was the highest in the SEC, averaging 29. Remember Ole Miss signed 37 in 2009.

Ole Miss signed 37 in '08, which ignited the SEC's decision to implement the 25/28 rule for the '09 recruiting year. Prior to 2009, there was no limit on signees, so if somebody signed 40 and 15 were sign to place guys, there was no harm. No stats that include years prior to 2009 are valid for this discussion.

Greyshirts can already jump ship. If the school doesn't give them financial aid forms for the fall term they are free, it's as if they never signed a LOI.

Quoting AUgrad00: "To your final point when you say "creative" in regards to roster management. Simple solution dont sign more players then you have scholarships available. You dont screw the players you dont sell your integrity and you do not have to worry about roster management. It was Mark Richt who recently said schools were offering scholarships like Candy."

Sounds simple, but that leaves no room to account for normal attrition over the summer, when most players that want to leave pack up their bags.

The players know good and well when they sign that their scholarship is for one year. As I said above, lets don't get sanctimonious here. Auburn basketball will dump several after this season, and football will have to do so in the near future. Eddins was left on the roster because there was nobody that needed his spot. Had there been a need, Eddins would have been moved to the medical scholarship list in a heartbeat. This ain't rec-league, Everybody Gets A Chance To Bat stuff. It's big-time sports. Produce or make room for someone else that can is the way it goes.

Quoting ECEstudentUA: "dont even start with the oversigning is wrong bs. Auburn has over signed 4 of the last 5 years....."

Not relative to the discussion. How many sign to place guys were signed in the years before 2009 is a meaningless number. The question is how many kids were cut from the team to make room for some new guy that might do better. So far UAT has cut a bunch, Auburn has cut none. If you want to argue that Auburn's squeaky clean record on this to date is a fluke of numbers that won't continue I'd agree, but don't say Auburn is already doing it when, at this lucky moment, $aban is the one with his hand caught in the cookie jar.

[lovemyAU 0]

Shon Coleman would have been long gone under saban's reign.

Your right and it's sad!!!! I think there needs to be tuffer rules. Let's not go back to the days of Bear when he recruited players just so no one else could have them, that is not fair to these young men but hey who cares about the right?? Right?? Wrong!!!! I hate that it has come to this!!! What happen to keeping your word?? These coaches use these kids to make millions of dollars and just throw them out with the trash if they think some thing better has come along..COME ON MAN.

And as far as Sabin..LOL..We can forget Sanders Jr. next year unless they start coming down on a man who is viloating the very rule named after him

[AUgrad00 7]

Here are the numbers for the past five years

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/andy_staples/01/24/oversigning-data/index.html

We Averaged 26.2 while you guys averaged 28.8. Ole Miss was the highest in the SEC, averaging 29. Remember Ole Miss signed 37 in 2009.

Ole Miss signed 37 in '08, which ignited the SEC's decision to implement the 25/28 rule for the '09 recruiting year. Prior to 2009, there was no limit on signees, so if somebody signed 40 and 15 were sign to place guys, there was no harm. No stats that include years prior to 2009 are valid for this discussion.

Greyshirts can already jump ship. If the school doesn't give them financial aid forms for the fall term they are free, it's as if they never signed a LOI.

Quoting AUgrad00: "To your final point when you say "creative" in regards to roster management. Simple solution dont sign more players then you have scholarships available. You dont screw the players you dont sell your integrity and you do not have to worry about roster management. It was Mark Richt who recently said schools were offering scholarships like Candy."

Sounds simple, but that leaves no room to account for normal attrition over the summer, when most players that want to leave pack up their bags.

The players know good and well when they sign that their scholarship is for one year. As I said above, lets don't get sanctimonious here. Auburn basketball will dump several after this season, and football will have to do so in the near future. Eddins was left on the roster because there was nobody that needed his spot. Had there been a need, Eddins would have been moved to the medical scholarship list in a heartbeat. This ain't rec-league, Everybody Gets A Chance To Bat stuff. It's big-time sports. Produce or make room for someone else that can is the way it goes.

Quoting ECEstudentUA: "dont even start with the oversigning is wrong bs. Auburn has over signed 4 of the last 5 years....."

Not relative to the discussion. How many sign to place guys were signed in the years before 2009 is a meaningless number. The question is how many kids were cut from the team to make room for some new guy that might do better. So far UAT has cut a bunch, Auburn has cut none. If you want to argue that Auburn's squeaky clean record on this to date is a fluke of numbers that won't continue I'd agree, but don't say Auburn is already doing it when, at this lucky moment, $aban is the one with his hand caught in the cookie jar.

Honestly I think its bullcrap to suggest players think its one year.

My problem is after reading published reports and former players here is what is appears Saban is doing:

I do not need to allow this player to go to another school but I does not have a place for them so I recruit them with the prospect of being a contributor knowing full well I do not have room thus there is a high probablity of greyshirting them knowing full well if I discloses this during the recruiting process I have a high likelyhood of losing the recruit during the recruiting process.

Once I entrap errrr sign the player I wait to the last minute and let him know he is being greyshirted so there is less likelyhood he can leave elsewhere because that late in the game he has very limited opportunities.

While I am no attorney I do not see how this does not meet close to or all of the nine characteristics of common fraud.

[Mikey 16,781]

I don't think $aban is signing players to keep them from other schools. The 25/28 rule pretty much prevents that. I do think he's signing them with the idea that they are on a one or two year tryout. If they can't cut it, he moves them out and brings in a better prospect.

[AUgrad00 7]

I don't think $aban is signing players to keep them from other schools. The 25/28 rule pretty much prevents that. I do think he's signing them with the idea that they are on a one or two year tryout. If they can't cut it, he moves them out and brings in a better prospect.

I tell you if Saban is honest about this and the LOI is rewritten to give players more freedom I have no problem with it. But I doubt Saban is upfront about this do you think he is Mikey? And if he is not is that cause for criticism on a practice that seems borderline unethical?