Aufan59

7 hours ago, SaltyTiger said:

The Bible teaches that this is a flawed world and since the fall of humanity Satan or evil is very real. Christians believe Gods work is not complete. If you choose to see God as evil be thankful for  “free will”. Without it you would not be capable of doing good things.

Unless god’s future work undoes endless suffering at the hands of evil, saying that his work is not done is a coping mechanism.  Worshiping an evil god for the chance at some reward is a very selfish act, and I could see how otherwise good people would need to cope.

I have done many good things in my life without having any free will.  I don’t see how the two are related.

2 hours ago, auburnatl1 said:

In nature when a wolf eats a deer , is that “evil”?Meteor wiping out dinosaurs? Or is it mainly about human nature? I’m just trying to figure out how unhappy you are with the current … design. 

There are many design flaws including in nature.  I don’t think the wolf is evil for eating the deer.  Just as the dogs in dog fighting rings are not evil, but the creators of said rings lack some sort of morality or empathy.

I was just focusing on the human nature driven ones.  Why create so many flaws and so much suffering when it wasn’t necessary?

4 hours ago, CoffeeTiger said:

this chart could pretty well summarize all the posts in the last few pages: 

All roads lead to an evil god presuming he is all powerful.

One option that is missing is that god simply not create the universe.

5 hours ago, jj3jordan said:

Could be your rants are evidence that God is on a much higher level than you can comprehend.  Elementary logic fails to know what is in God’s mind.  You think you are equal to God. You are not. 

I didn’t intentionally create a world with evil, so in some respects I am better.  As are many others.

46 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

The God I know is all about love.  The God I know has filled the world with every resource we need, both natural and, in regard to our human abilities.

We choose evil.  We choose to live with more concern as to what is "ours" rather than, being kind, generous, peaceful, thankful.  For the most part,,, we reject God and, believe in ourselves, our traditions, customs, tribes, systems, beliefs, ideologies.  We attempt to create our own, more palatable version of right and wrong.

I believe God knew from the beginning that,,, as a whole, we would fail.  However, those who attempt to live the narrative of "love your neighbor as yourself" have the chance to overcome the evil of this world.

We too often consider life as a series of achievements/accomplishments, in the worldly sense.  Understandable, this world is all we know.  IMHO, it is much more important to learn and grow in the sense of understanding ourselves and, understanding God.

Turn the other cheek, love all as yourself, show mercy, give without resentment,,, reject evil.  IMHO, rejecting evil is accepting God and, being of this world is rejecting God.  God has a way of reaching out to us.  However, we often fail to see or hear God.

God is not evil.  God did not fail us.  We are evil.  We reject God.  We take the credit for God's blessings and then, blame God for the evils.

We are all God's children.  May God's love and mercy save us all.  I pray that one day, we will all accept the truth of love, charity, mercy in abundance. 

Hate no one.  Even those who hate you.  God is pure love.

God knew we would fail, why did he still create us?  That was the evil decision.  Isn’t he powerful enough to create humans that wouldn’t fail?

Blaming people for god’s failures is like blaming the players when the coach failed.  Or blaming the students when the teacher failed.  Or blaming the customers when the business failed.  Etc.  

For god to have knowingly and intentionally created a world that would result in evil, he must himself be evil.

8 minutes ago, SaltyTiger said:

He created you to create good. You are allowed to choose evil.

You are starting to get it.  Why would a god create a universe that allows for us to choose evil?  Why would god create a universe where he knew people would choose evil?

3 minutes ago, auburnatl1 said:

If we’re robots mindlessly following gods  xbox controller commands - Id see your point.  But again, God (per scripture) clearly backs off and allows for free will.  Even the free will to see him as evil.

He gave us the free will to commit evil, which he knew we would commit.  God did not have to create us as is, or at all.  But he still chose to create evil. 

4 minutes ago, auburnatl1 said:

We’re in a loop.  Go evil-mania I guess.

You keep giving examples of a god that is not all powerful and all knowing.  My reasoning only applies to an all powerful, all knowing god.

2 minutes ago, auburnatl1 said:

Omnipotence 101. But there’s  a difference between setting up the chess board vs playing it. Knowing  what going to happen isnt controlling it.

Free will.

 

He set up the chess board, made the rules, and created the players.  He knew the chess game would result in unspeakable evils.  He did not have to set up the chess board at all but still did, despite knowing what unspeakable evils would follow.  He didn't choose to create it a different way that would have not resulted in evil.

This is pure evil, and should be recognized as such.

3 minutes ago, auburnatl1 said:

Huh? That’s puppeteer circular logic on steroids. Regardless, if that’s make sense to you - go for it.

You don't think god knew that the Golden Gate Bridge would be created before it was created?  So you don't believe in an all knowing god?

1 hour ago, auburnatl1 said:

So who created the Golden Gate Bridge? 

Not sure without looking it up.  Did god know the Golden Gate Bridge would be created when he created the universe?  Could he have created a universe where the Golden Gate Bridge was not created?

If he is all powerful and all knowing, the answer to both of those questions is yes.

12 minutes ago, jj3jordan said:

None of that existed at creation. It came later after evil entered the world. See that is even simpler. You can answer it without blaspheming God.

If god is all powerful and knows the past, present and future, then he knew what he was creating and the results of what he was creating.  An all powerful god that created everything must have created evil.  Intentionally creating evil in my opinion makes you evil.

3 hours ago, auburnatl1 said:

God created.. rape? Vs choice and free will? Sounds like you have a species accountability issue.

Yes, an all powerful god created everything.  Even the bad things.  Maybe you don’t believe in an all powerful god, which is respectable.

23 hours ago, auburnatl1 said:

Not even sure what you’re talking about but if you can read the 4 gospels and see “evil”… ok. People are wired how they’re wired.

But Jesus looked at them and said, "For mortals it is impossible, but for God all things are possible" (Matthew 19:26).

It was possible for an all powerful god to create this world without rape, genocide, torture, child cancer.  But he did not.

Why not?  The simplest and most logical answer is that he is evil.

23 minutes ago, auburnatl1 said:

If your point is the child with cancer scenario. It has been struggled with for centuries. The issue is trying to grasp omnipotence when we are not. However, your god is evil point is being needlessly  provocative and imo shows a lack of understanding of the gospels.
 

@jj3jordan ‘s “soul” point I personally don’t agree with. I fully understand the “or else” clause but don’t think thats necessary when discussing faith.

There is no struggle, the answer is very simple, don’t worship an evil god.   Don’t worship evil is not a provocative position.

What is provocative are those who suggest you should worship evil or you will be punished.  I forgive them though, as they are the #2 category I originally mentioned, brainwashed by evil.

8 minutes ago, jj3jordan said:

The passage is not wrong. Your understanding of it is. You seem to think God “causes” evil to be perpetrated on a person. The quoted passage says God created evil, which He did by creating Lucifer and expelling him from Heaven. Lucifer has perpetrated evil on the earth ever since. Don’t blame God for what Godless people do.

If god is all powerful, then he knew exactly what he was doing, and the result of what he created.  And he did not have to create it this way, or at all.

An all powerful god that creates evil is evil.  People who worship an all power god are worshiping evil. 

25 minutes ago, jj3jordan said:

Lucifer was an Angel in Heaven before the fall. So God created him. Lucifer brought evil to the earth where we are free to choose to believe in God or reject God. But when God created Adam and Eve, there was no evil. Not until Adam and Eve chose to sin despite clear instruction from God. 

I was quoting the Bible.  I guess that passage is wrong?

18 minutes ago, jj3jordan said:

He did not.

He did. Lucifer, the angel of Satan, cast out of Heaven, introduced evil to the world. Only if God created the universe would it have standards, laws, and morality. Randomly evolved primordial ooze that miraculously ends up being humans later on do not have standards, laws, and morality.  You're distaste for rape, incest, murder, torture, genocide, and abortion (bonus points to you for including this in the "evil" column), despite your denial actually comes from the standards, laws, and morality created by God, instructed to us through the Bible (easy ICHY, just a reference), for the most part universally accepted as standards throughout the world except by communists, NAZIs, and goat humpers.

 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. - Isaiah 45:7

11 hours ago, Shoney'sPonyBoy said:

I'm afraid I have made a mess of the above post by trying to quote and respond point by point.  Hopefully you can sort it out.  You may have to click on lots of the "quote" arrows to see everything that was posted.  My apologies.

You're getting into a debate about the definition of morality, which is not my intention nor is it required for the point I was making. 

Instead, I start a point of presumed agreement: that rape, genocide, torture, etc. are especially immoral (evil).  If you agree with that statement, then logically an all powerful god that created rape, genocide and torture is also especially immoral (evil). 

To go further, we don't even need to agree on what specific things are evil.  We only need to agree that evil does indeed exist.  If you believe evil exists, and believe in an all powerful god that created everything, then you believe in an evil god. 

I understand to refute this point you need to create a debate on morality, to give an all powerful god some wiggle room or ambiguity as an excuse for creating evil.  I'd rather just say you are right about morality than argue about morality requiring free will, god, etc.

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Then what's the problem with the above "atrocities?"  How are they violating any aspect of an inherently injust, brutal, painful, miserable universe in which people have no ability to control their choices or their actions?  Sounds to me like they fit right in.  This is what I was talking about above.  You pretend to admit those things about the universe because it's dawning on you that you can't logically refute them, but you still want to act scandalized by injustice, brutality, violence, unfairness, etc.  How can you be outraged or scandalized by the universe acting like the universe?

I assure you I'm not pretending, nor is this stance is donning on me right now.   I am not outraged or scandalized by the universe acting like the universe. 

However I would be outraged if the universe acted like this at the hands of all powerful creator.  Luckily I have no logical reason to believe that there is an all powerful creator - and as you point out, no emotion reason to believe it either.

7 hours ago, Shoney'sPonyBoy said:

For example, you said YOU consider the examples above to be evil.  For the sake of argument, let's say I don't (I do, but not for the same reason as you).

Make the LOGICAL argument to me that they are.

Evil is especially immoral. Morality is an agreed upon set of rules for society. We can get reductionist about this, but based on experiencing the human condition (being able to experience pain, sorrow, etc.), all reasonable people believe that the atrocities I have listed are especially immoral. Regardless, conversation and debate is about finding common ground. If we cannot agree on the basics that rape, genocide, torture, etc. are immoral, then we don't have common ground and further discussion is not warranted.

Tell me how justice fits into a random entirely physical universe in which even the concept of individual personhood and free will to commit rape (or not) has to be nothing more than a persistent illusion.

 

I have no interest is making this point, as there is no room for free will in the universe as we understand it. There is no inherent justice in the universe. It is a brutal place filled with pain, suffering, and misery. 

If God proved to you beyond a shadow of a doubt that He exists and you still "chose" to "not believe in Him," that really means you would know He exists...it would be impossible for you to not know it...but you reject Him because you think you know how the universe should run better than the entity who created it and you are angry that he has the power to do so and you don't.

  I would be angry because he had the power to not create evil, yet he did.  I would be angry because by definition he is evil. 

Again, no.  You said "logically."  In truth, LOGICALLY, you don't even have any objective basis to consider the things you object to about the universe "evil" other than your own subjective opinion, which would hold no more water than anyone else's subjective opinion.

I consider things like genocide, torture, rape, and other atrocities are objectively evil.  A world view that thinks this is subjective opinion is absolutely disgusting and unconscionable.  Are you really taking that stance?

1 hour ago, GoAU said:

I don’t think it’s that complicated.   The God I mention is absolutely, as you say, “all powerful” or else He wouldn’t be God.  Having power doesn’t me He exercises that power at all times.  That is where free will comes into play - people are given the latitude to make their own choices.  I don’t really like the analogy of “pets” but I think in some aspects it has its merits.  Why do (some) people enjoy having a dog?   Some dogs chew things up, go to the bathroom in the house, run away, etc?   Why not just get a stuffed animal instead?   Because a real dog can show affection, provide companionship, show affection, etc.  that doesn’t happen with the stuffed animal because it doesn’t have free will - it can’t make the choice or decision.  Life here is essentially a temporary stop along the way, just a decision point for who makes the cut for the next stop.  

I agree it is not that complicated.  If god is "all powerful", he could have created a world without rape, incest, murder, torture, genocide and abortion.

He did not.

And your justification?  Because he wanted affection.  God has pets because he wants affection, even if that means he runs a dog fighting ring to get that affection? 

An all powerful god created evil, thus an all powerful god is evil.  Worship of him falls into category 2 I described above.

6 minutes ago, GoAU said:

So, the concept of free will eludes you, right?   God doesn’t choose rape and murder, that is entirely man’s doing.  
 

You would rather have a god that enslaves you?  

I don't see how free will is relevant here.   I was speaking about the worship of an "all powerful" god. 

I could understand the belief (maybe not worship) of a not "all powerful" god that you mention.

I will agree with the premise of the article, specifically to those who worship an "all powerful" god.  We need more atheists.  Not because they are atheists, but because they reject the idea of an "all powerful" god.

For example, all it takes to be an atheist is to have experienced or learned about any of the atrocities of life.  If an "all powerful" god (for example the Christian god) were to tap me on the shoulder and present himself, I would still be an atheist.  I would still choose to not believe that something or someone so evil exists.  I think we all have experienced this feeling - learning about some evil act, and wishing that it did not happen.  If you have experienced this, you have experienced atheism. 

Those who choose to worship an "all powerful" god logically fall into one of two camps:

1) Completely evil - they knowingly worship someone/something who is responsible for rape, torture, murder, genocide, abortion,  and every other evil atrocity that has ever and will ever exist. 

2) Completely brainwashed by evil - they worship someone/something who is responsible for rape, torture, murder, genocide, abortion, and every other evil atrocity that has ever and will ever exist, but aren't clever enough to understand they are worshiping this evil.

So if I were drafting a population to fill my town, city, state, country, world, etc., and my choices were 1) evil, 2) brainwashed by evil, 3) none of the above...

I choose 3.