Jump to content

homersapien

Platinum Donor
  • Posts

    52,755
  • Joined

  • Last visited

  • Days Won

    13

Posts posted by homersapien

  1. 18 hours ago, jj3jordan said:

    All of us deniers denied before trump was a gleam in your eye. And we don’t deny climate change. That’s what we call weather. It’s the bogus blame we deny. Your side apparently are “sun deniers”. You deny that the sun makes it hot.

    Like all deniers you are totally ignorant of what you claim.

    The weather changes along with the climate.  How do you explain the undeniable warming over the last two centuries?

  2. 19 hours ago, johnnyAU said:

    Again, citing the bogus consensus. It's all you have. 

    It's been thoroughly researched and proven with data.  I'd go to the trouble of citing the studies, but again, what does it matter? 

    No amount of objective evidence is going to convince a conspiracist like you. 

  3. 20 hours ago, autigeremt said:

    Well, political grandstanding is a trademark and a tradition of this Congress. 

    "Grandstanding"??  :-\  It would have passed if Republicans hadn't voted against it.

    This problem could be addressed with legislation.  Republicans would rather it not change. 

    ".....Not a single Republican voted for the bill, and it was never introduced in the then-majority Republican Senate. 

    Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) called that iteration of the bill “a radical half-baked socialist proposal.”....

    Pull your head out.

  4. 18 minutes ago, SaltyTiger said:

    It is crazy these days. Down on the coast for the past few weeks. Very few storefronts or businesses that do not have “hiring” signs posted.

    Sounds like you are offering what our generation would have called a dream job for the summer.

    Free lunch too.

    Last kid that worked for us did so for like 5 years. Gifted him $1,000 for his HS graduation. He became like a godson to us, and credits us for a his financial education (which he didn't get at home).  Did a stint in the Navy, followed by a college degree from U. of Illinois and now lives in Chicago selling business software.  Still keeps in close touch with us.

    • Like 2
  5. https://www.axios.com/2024/05/16/desantis-florida-climate-change-law

    DeSantis signs bill wiping climate change references from Florida law

    The legislation I signed today—HB 1645, HB 7071, and HB 1331—will keep windmills off our beaches, gas in our tanks, and China out of our state. We’re restoring sanity in our approach to energy and rejecting the agenda of the radical green zealots. Furthermore, we’re going to ensure foreign adversaries like China have no foothold in our state.
     
    Why it matters: The bill that would also ban offshore wind turbines and bolster natural gas expansion after taking effect on July 1 comes as climate change's effects are already impacting Florida — notably a dangerous heat wave threatening the state's south this week that's already broken temperature records.
    • The heat index in Key West hit a record 115°F on Wednesday and the National Weather Service warned South Florida could expect well-above average temperatures with "hazardous" heat index values this week.
    • Florida is also facing climate change-related threats from rising sea levels and ocean temperatures, hurricanes and other severe storms, extreme precipitation, flooding and toxic algae blooms.

    The big picture: The legislation that deletes most mentions of climate change in state law reverses much of the policies and legislation that were introduced during the administration of the then-Republican Gov. Charlie Crist, a Democrat DeSantis defeated in the 2022 gubernatorial race.

    • Now, the focus is on "an adequate, reliable and cost-effective supply of energy for the state in a manner that promotes the health and welfare of the public and economic growth," per a legislative analysis.
    • Critics say DeSantis is using climate change as part of a broader culture wars drive and environmental group Sierra Club's Florida chapter issued a statement saying the law "jeopardizes" the health and safety of all Floridians.

    Yes, but: The law is largely symbolic as it doesn't prevent lawmakers from addressing climate change in energy policy.

  6. Interesting analysis of the climate change denial "community". (emphasis mine)

    https://www.asanet.org/footnotes-article/structure-and-culture-climate-change-denial/

     

    The Structure and Culture of Climate Change Denial

    Jeremiah Bohr, Assistant Professor of Sociology, University of Wisconsin Oshkosh
     

    As someone who has spent over a decade studying the climate change denial movement, many of the political tactics mainstreamed by Donald Trump and the populist right around 2015–2016 seemed familiar. Attack the experts. Launch personal attacks on opponents. Frame an email scandal to maximize political gain. Delegitimize mainstream media sources. Cast yourself as the savior of traditional American life. Climate change deniers practiced these tactics years before the Republican Party transformed from a Reagan coalition of social conservatives and small-government libertarians to a party of the populist right. While arguing against scientific consensus will always present an uphill battle, the organizers of climate change denial repeatedly prove their ability to strategically adapt to their political environment, seamlessly shifting between narratives of “climate change is not happening,” “climate change is happening but humans are not driving it,” and “climate change is happening but it is nothing to worry about.”

    Considering the economic incentives of continued fossil fuel development, I expect that climate change deniers will adapt to shifting political winds for years to come and will continue to employ political tactics. In this article, I review a few facts and events to illustrate this point. For a more comprehensive overview of the players involved in obstructing action on climate change, read “From Denial to Obstruction: A Sociological View of the Effort to Obstruction Action on Climate Change” by Robert Brulle and Riley Dunlap in this issue. Ultimately, members of the climate change denial movement do not concern themselves with building fact-based objections to mainstream scientific consensus. Rather, they are focused on how to coordinate political reactions to any sort of mitigation policy effort that detracts from fossil fuel-based economic growth strategies. Thus, in my view, the tactics used to frame scientists as corrupt, activists as antiprogress, corporations as “woke,” or journalists as liars, represent a crucial element of the contemporary climate change denial movement.

    The Economic Incentives of Denial

    Looking at the organization of climate change denial, we quickly recognize a familiar story of corporate actors pursuing private gain, hiding information from the public, and pushing negative externalities onto society. To do this successfully, industry actors coordinate public relations campaigns and prop up their own set of experts to deny their industries have contributed to harming public health. The playbook used by climate change deniers often parallels that used by the tobacco industry to deny carcinogenic links to their product, sometimes employing the very same people who had defended Big Tobacco to protect the fossil fuel industry. Naomi Oreskes and Erik M. Conway documented this network of iconoclastic and politically connected scientists who promote uncertainty around climate science (and other environmental and public health issues) in their book Merchants of Doubt (Bloomsbury Press, 2010).

    A mixture of corporations in the fossil fuel industry (e.g., ExxonMobil), trade associations (e.g., National Association of Manufacturers), conservative philanthropists (e.g., The Lynde and Harry Bradley Foundation), and conservative think tanks make up the coalition of organized climate change denial. As part of this coalition, think tanks serve a key function in using funds from corporations and philanthropists to produce the narrative work of denial in the form of research reports, newsletters, podcasts, social media posts, and op-eds. These include widely recognized names such as The Heritage Foundation, but also smaller think tanks such as The Heartland Institute that have made climate change denial their niche. Ideologically, these think tanks unite through their libertarian commitment to free markets, low taxes, and opposition to “big government,” leading various corporate funders to view them as useful vehicles for obstructing proactive climate legislation. Indeed, organizations within the climate change countermovement that have received corporate funding produce more polarizing media than those without corporate funding, and they place greater emphasis on specific themes such as the purported benefits of increased CO2 concentrations.

    Various politicians representing constituents whose economic livelihoods rely on fossil fuel development and access to cheap energy also have incentives to engage in climate change denial. Treadmill of production theory in environmental sociology anticipates these types of alliances, wherein a coalition of corporations, labor, politicians, and (sometimes) consumers come together through mutual benefits realized at the cost of environmental degradation. Consistent with what my research shows, congressional representatives discuss environmental issues on their social media accounts along the political-economic lines that characterize their districts. Additionally, and unsurprisingly, legislators tend to vote against pro-environmental bills as they receive more money from industries associated with the climate change countermovement. Clearly, the alignment of near-term economic incentives with conventional fossil fuel economic development creates a receptive context for deniers’ attacks on climate science and efforts to mitigate global climate change.

    The Political Culture of Denial

    In my view, it is a mistake to assume that a principled commitment to libertarian principles in defense of free markets drives the climate change denial movement. Beneath the surface of the libertarian rhetoric that infused the early years of the denial discourse lay the forerunners of the modern right’s turn from libertarian-conservatism to right-wing populism. In my estimation, the mutual hatred of “the expert”—disdained as a tool of central planning in a Hayekian-inspired libertarian tradition as well as a symbol of educated elites that animates modern right-wing populism—allows these camps to find common ground in the field of climate change politics.

    Years before “fake news” became a regular phrase in our political vocabulary, deniers used a variety of now-familiar tactics to shape public discourse around climate change. At the outset of my interest in studying climate change denial, I attended a well-known conference organized by The Heartland Institute in 2010, part of an annual series set up as the denial movement’s version of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC). Upon arrival, I entered a large conference space where hundreds of attendees gathered for dinner and to hear a keynote speaker. Having spent months consuming climate change denial content at that point, I possessed a sense of what to expect at this conference, but the scene I walked into took me aback: hundreds of animated climate change deniers excitedly shouting “Lock Him Up!” Many of the attendees were waving small hockey sticks emblazoned with “Mann-Made Global Warming,” aiming their chants at climatologist Michael Mann, author of the well-known “hockey stick” graph, and whom the denial movement accuses of manipulating data (as they do of nearly every prominent climate scientist or research group). Of course, not too many years later, rowdy crowds at Trump campaign rallies would shout “Lock Her Up!” about Hillary Clinton. This parallel illustrates a political culture undergirding the denial movement, premised not on good-faith disagreements about the proper role of government, but a visceral hatred directed at anyone identified as the enemy. In this case, enemies include most climate scientists, but also anyone perceived as an opponent to the lifestyle made possible by access to cheap fossil fuel. While I understand the motives of corporate actors as a desire to protect profits, I would characterize many of the rank-and-file activists I encountered at this conference (who were almost all white men) as motivated by threats to their “industrial” masculinity.

    Another familiar parallel involves an email scandal. Perhaps no other event animated the climate change denial movement more than the infamous “Climategate” scandal. In 2009, ahead of the United Nations Copenhagen Climate Change Conference, hackers obtained emails from the Climatic Research Unit at the University of East Anglia. Among thousands of emails, climate change deniers took a small handful out of context and used them to insinuate that researchers manipulated data and misled the public about the reality of anthropogenic climate change. Sen. James M. Inhofe (R-OK), a political champion of climate change denial, pounced on the scandal to call for investigations into research sponsored by the United Nations’ IPCC. Climategate dominated U.S. news coverage of climate change for months, particularly among newspapers with conservative editorial leanings. Multiple independent investigations would later verify that no malfeasance took place and that the deniers’ narrative itself manipulated the emails, though these headlines would receive scant attention by comparison. In the end, the denial movement secured a victory: public trust in climate science eroded and belief in global warming among television meteorologists declined as a result of Climategate.

    Responding to Climate Change Denial

    Since the manufactured Climategate controversy, which I consider the zenith of deniers’ influence over public opinion (though their policy influence would later peak under the Trump administration), parts of the denial coalition began to suffer setbacks. As their attack tactics became progressively more hostile, climate change deniers began to lose support among corporate boardrooms. One significant moment came in 2012, when The Heartland Institute put up a billboard in Chicago equating global warming activists to the terrorist “Unabomber” Ted Kaczynski. Months earlier, a climate scientist and activist leaked several internal documents that publicly exposed the funders of The Heartland Institute’s attacks on climate science. With pressure mounting from activists, corporations such as State Farm Insurance and General Motors cut ties with the small but influential think tank. Many other corporations would end up deciding they could no longer publicly associate with climate change denial (another familiar parallel with our current political moment).

    Scientists have spent years fact-checking misinformation and sometimes debating contrarian pundits. While the pursuit of “inoculating” the public from misinformation may necessitate such activities, fact-checking and communicating the scientific consensus regarding climate change insufficiently counters the power of misinformation campaigns, partly because climate change denial belongs to the same polarizing trends that establish “post-truth” discursive spaces. Despite inventive suggestions for how to leverage information technology in the battle against climate misinformation, and thoughtful strategies outlined by sociologists, the COVID-19 pandemic makes clear how readily huge swaths of our population will dismiss fact-checked statements or research coming from mistrusted sources. We currently see the resistance from millions of people to taking vaccinations prescribed by public health experts. While we can argue that the denial position creeps further to the fringe of mainstream culture as it increasingly associates with anti-science attitudes, it maintains a steady home among a sizeable and committed minority.

    Despite its setbacks, the denial movement does not lack teeth or influence. Prominent figures in this realm still have opportunity to exert power through their solid standing within the Republican Party. Myron Ebell of the libertarian Competitive Enterprise Institute, for example, shaped President Trump’s Environmental Protection Agency, an administration that withdrew the U.S. from the Paris Agreement and consistently empowered industry at the cost of environmental protection. While I did not describe a comprehensive list of the political fights engaged by climate change deniers in the U.S., these accounts illustrate how the movement itself foreshadowed the entering of fringe political elements into the conservative mainstream. Financially, a coalition incentivized by fossil fuel extraction supports the climate change denial movement. Culturally, a type of identity politics embedded within carbon-intensive lifestyles animates it. Understanding these aspects provides insight into the social forces blocking action on climate change, as well as their robust power going forward.

    • Thanks 1
    • Haha 1
    • Facepalm 1
  7. 21 hours ago, SaltyTiger said:

    My career was more commercial, institutional, and industrial construction.  Without Hispanic labor the industry would be in a “pickle”. Younger Americans or a least few have any interest in it. Different world now but when I was younger a summer construction job meant being set for a while.

    I am trying to find a teenager for part time summer work at $20/hr.  So far, no takers.

  8. 1 minute ago, SaltyTiger said:

    My point is that they make the task at hand look natural and effortless. “Sexy” may be a bad choice of words but I thought it sounded good. If you ever have the opportunity to watch a Hispanic crew framing a home stop and take note for just a few minutes. You do not have to be an expert to see how well and efficient they work together.

    I noticed the same thing when they replaced my roof. 

    I also asked the (white) contractor if they have them "slack off" a little in extreme heat (which we were experiencing at the time).  He said it's hard to get them to slow down.

    I understand your point, I was just making a sex joke.

    • Wow 1
  9. On 5/16/2024 at 10:11 AM, autigeremt said:

    And every other politician. Democrats (obviously) and Republicans alike. 

    Well, Democrats made an attempt to reform campaign financing:

    https://www.opensecrets.org/news/2021/01/for-the-people-act-democrats/

    ".....The bill is supported by a broad coalition of progressive groups under the banner of the Declaration for American Democracy. Its nearly 180 members include People’s Action, MoveOn.org, the League of Conservation Voters and the Service Employees International Union. The Lincoln Project, an anti-Trump super PAC that took $300,000 from dark money group Sixteen Thirty Fund, one of the left’s largest dark money groups, reportedly also supportsthe bill

    Despite the enthusiasm from Democrats, Schumer will face an uphill battle to actually pass the bill. In 2019, an earlier version of the bill passed in the House along partisan lines. Not a single Republican voted for the bill, and it was never introduced in the then-majority Republican Senate. 

    Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) called that iteration of the bill “a radical half-baked socialist proposal.”....

  10. 12 hours ago, johnnyAU said:

    No you don't. You make unsubstantiated claims like I pointed out earlier. You have no argument.

    Yep.  You're right.  It's all a massive hoax involving a financial scam. :comfort:

  11. On 5/15/2024 at 10:58 PM, johnnyAU said:

    Prove it. And then prove the scientists you have quoted/cited aren't continually funded by green $$ as long as they produce "acceptable" results.

    Do your own research. Just search their names and follow up.

    And I don't recall citing any single researcher by name. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)  I have cited primarily sites that compile research as in Academic societies and government sites like NASA and NOAA.

    But what's the point?  You clearly believe the entire subject is a global hoax or scam:   97+% of all climatologists and related scientists in geology, meteorology, biology, chemistry, etc. in the world are all participates in this hoax.

    How can anyone argue with that? 

    It's a fool's errand.   

     

    • Like 2
  12. 20 hours ago, auburnatl1 said:

    It’s worse than that. Im a conservative Never Trumper… A spurned by all pariah.  If you all on this forum dump me, I’m totally screwed.

    image.gif.2422a5764fd2648a0a68779a7ed0390e.gif

    FWIW, I don't "spurn" never Trumper conservatives.  Just the opposite - I respect them.

    • Thanks 1
  13. 20 hours ago, autigeremt said:

    There are several academics who have suggested such things. Google is your friend (if physics isn’t) 

    Who?

    And you didn't answer my question.  When was the last polar reversal?

  14. 22 hours ago, SaltyTiger said:

    I am because you mentioned it.

    “And - assuming attempted bribery is a crime - the Justice Department as well.)”

    My mistake.  I shouldn't have mentioned it knowing that some MAGA would jump on it as an opening to avoid my main point. This why I later "crawfished" on it:

    "Given the context there's nothing illegal about it (as I questioned in an earlier post).  It's just blatantly transactional and morally/ethically revealing.  (But then we already knew that about Trump.)

    But I stand by my comment that this is a political gift for the Democrats. 

    But thanks for confirming my instincts Salty.  You are a predictable passive-aggressive MAGA.

  15. 14 hours ago, johnnyAU said:

    Turn the question around on you. Do you believe the myriad of scientists and engineers that are skeptical are all funded by fossil fuel companies and are thus unethical?

    The ones who have been presented in this discussion as examples are. 

     

  16. 13 hours ago, Leftfield said:

    Can you account for the sudden spike in temperatures, which are novel in history? Do you have any citations of studies to prove what you assert? When we post something to back up what we're saying, all you say is "wrong," but you don't even try to back up your arguments.

    Don't hold your breath waiting. ;)

  17. 14 hours ago, johnnyAU said:

    You are as ideologically blind as anyone I've ever encountered. And yes, you are ignorant if you believe the swill you propagate.

    No, we don't KNOW what the climate sensitivity is for the doubling of CO2. It's an estimation based on unverifiable assumptions.

    CO2 is claimed to feedback to warming, but there is not substantiated evidence that the effect is significant.

    Skeptical science is something you believe is a valid source, but it is propaganda at best.

    I've read every reference you have ever read or provided here. The vast majority is garbage, but funded garbage nonetheless. You have never provided FACTS, but it is clear you believe them to be facts as most cultists do. 

    My kids will be just fine, as will their children, and theirs. What makes me grin, is that you are so spineless that you decided not to procreate and still virtue signal about it. Our society will be much better off without the weak minded progenies you would have left behind for the rest of us to prop up. We thank you for your service. 

    :comfort:

  18. 2 hours ago, autigeremt said:

    One day, physicists and meteorologists will finally come together and agree that polar shifts and magnetic fields affect climate shifts more than anyone ever imagined. While I am a firm defender of our natural resources, I do not put all the blame of our current climate crisis on the backs of humankind. I do agree that we have contributed to air, water and soil pollution and that it has a negative effect on our quality of life (Cancer, birth defects, etc.).

    When was the last polar shift emt?

    Where did you get the idea it was associated with global warming?

  19. 18 minutes ago, SaltyTiger said:

    I am just saying if indeed “bribery” then bribery is the issue. Should alarming to more folks than just those with an interest in intent. I also said I doubt it will ever amount to anything.

    I am not a lawyer nor do I know the law - if any- that would cover this incident.

    But to me - and I think to most people - this constitutes a clear quid pro quo situation.  It's pretty specific.  What is the difference between this and what Menendez did?

    But again, my point is this obviously good campaign material, assuming that a majority of Americans disapprove of his "intent" which was quite apparent.

×
×
  • Create New...