Someone please tell me...

[AURules 0]

is it players or coaching?

If this has already been discussed on a previous thread and I missed it, sorry but geez!

Other teams with younger players are coming into Auburn Arena and pushing us around??? really?

I have opinions of my own but I would like someone knowledgable about basketball to please tell me how we can appear to be so bad and what or who is to blame at this point.

My first opinion is whether Chubb is really a D-1 player or NOT! He's a big body sure but he's aweful folks!

He can't hold onto the ball and when he does hold on to it, he takes bad shots a lot and hardly ever finishes the play and blocking out? ha! Whats that? never heard of it!

Small teams like us better be able to knock down some shots which brings me to my next point...do these guys practice shooting? what about an occasional game of horse....something? Consistency in this department is void.

The hustle and play to end that our guys display is inspiring and I'm really not knocking on our guys because I do beleive they are doing the best that they can but something is way off!

Any thoughts?

[jared52 4,354]

It's both. Watch 10 min of any ACC, B1G, or Big East basketball and you will see a stark difference in play style and intensity. I said this last night in the game thread but really it just boils down to basketball knowledge. Some of it comes from the AAU/Nike Elite camps and teams. A lot of them are street ball type teams, pick and roll, trying to beat your guy off the dribble stuff. I have no issue with that. It can be fun to watch. The problem is that you can do that on a high school level, where you can more easily create mismatches, but not on the college level. Everyone in college is as fast as everyone else. The athleticism is largely equal across the board. You have your Anthony Davises at times, but look at some of the other big name guys. Remember Jimmer? He wasn't super fast, super big or even super intense, but he could shoot the lights out. So why can't AU find a guy like that? They are pretty rare these days.

Also, a losing culture is much easier to get into and maintain. Basketball is a game of runs, that's why you see that stat on the screen a lot (AU on a 9-2 in the last 3:30, UK on a 17-3 run in the last 4:36, etc.) That's true at almost every level of the sport. But those runs don't just stop during games, games themselves become runs. Scheduling isn't something AU has any control of, except the non-conference stuff. AU needs to be able to run off 5-6 wins in a row against lesser (but not D2 level) competition to get used to winning.

Basketball turns around in a hurry too. In football, you have 3-4 days to sort of get over a loss before you have to focus ahead. In basketball, you have 3-4 hours. Losses can mount (like AU's have) just because you can't mentally escape the previous loss. That's why AU seems to struggle with the same stuff over and over. They get stuck in a rut, whether it be offesive production or defensive, when things start to go bad in a game, it's usually the same old issues.

Lastly (I could probably do more but you're all done reading now anyway), someone has to be the guy. On every team, there's got to be the guy. Problem is, you can't just WANT to be the guy, you have to have the skills to be the guy. Frankie can be that guy at times, but he's not himself right now. Denson could be the guy, but he's not a creator, he's a pure slasher. Wallace can't be the guy because he's not a scoring threat. Payne, who is a better creator than Denson, could also possibly be the guy, but just disappears from time to time. Then you have the Johnsons, Grainger, Greene and Price who aren't quite talented enough yet but with some gym time, could be. And Chubb, man I have grown to love Chubb, maybe because he reminds me of how I played, only he's much better of course. I didn't make it past HS ball. But unless you are Anthony Davis, most bigs aren't ever the guy.

"Change the culture" is always a great idea, but it's a very difficult thing in this day and age to develop discipline in the players necessary to do it. They have to fall in love with winning and learning what it takes to win, not just score a basket so they can look over at the girl they like and see if she's watching (oh wait, that last one was probably just me...). It can certainly change, but it's not going to change quickly.

[AUgrad00 7]

Terrible offense Chubbs is awful. He was a roster filler under Lebo. Sullivan thinks he is better then he is. And the young guys are not talented enough to come in and play like seasoned veterans.

On offense earlier in the year it was the offense running through Sullivan with four guys standing around who knows now.

Beyond frustrating. I hate this style of basketball much rather see full court press, 94 feet on offense with transition baskets (like UNC at their best under Roy Wlliams) problem is this team cant score enough to play that way.

Sullivan and Chubbs being gone next year is good news for Auburn addition by subtraction. We have Lebo to think for Chubbs I wish Jeff had just been a scholarship short and signed a better player the next year.

I love basketball!! March is my favorite time of year. College basketball's post season absolutely @hits on college football bowl season. I want us to be playing meaningful games in March. I want to watch AU in the tourney in March not hear about spring football. I hate that AU has not made the tourney for ten years but I am beyond frustrated so what is the casual fan to do if the hardcore cant stomach watching?

[AUgrad00 7]

It's both. Watch 10 min of any ACC, B1G, or Big East basketball and you will see a stark difference in play style and intensity. I said this last night in the game thread but really it just boils down to basketball knowledge. Some of it comes from the AAU/Nike Elite camps and teams. A lot of them are street ball type teams, pick and roll, trying to beat your guy off the dribble stuff. I have no issue with that. It can be fun to watch. The problem is that you can do that on a high school level, where you can more easily create mismatches, but not on the college level. Everyone in college is as fast as everyone else. The athleticism is largely equal across the board. You have your Anthony Davises at times, but look at some of the other big name guys. Remember Jimmer? He wasn't super fast, super big or even super intense, but he could shoot the lights out. So why can't AU find a guy like that? They are pretty rare these days.

Also, a losing culture is much easier to get into and maintain. Basketball is a game of runs, that's why you see that stat on the screen a lot (AU on a 9-2 in the last 3:30, UK on a 17-3 run in the last 4:36, etc.) That's true at almost every level of the sport. But those runs don't just stop during games, games themselves become runs. Scheduling isn't something AU has any control of, except the non-conference stuff. AU needs to be able to run off 5-6 wins in a row against lesser (but not D2 level) competition to get used to winning.

Basketball turns around in a hurry too. In football, you have 3-4 days to sort of get over a loss before you have to focus ahead. In basketball, you have 3-4 hours. Losses can mount (like AU's have) just because you can't mentally escape the previous loss. That's why AU seems to struggle with the same stuff over and over. They get stuck in a rut, whether it be offesive production or defensive, when things start to go bad in a game, it's usually the same old issues.

Lastly (I could probably do more but you're all done reading now anyway), someone has to be the guy. On every team, there's got to be the guy. Problem is, you can't just WANT to be the guy, you have to have the skills to be the guy. Frankie can be that guy at times, but he's not himself right now. Denson could be the guy, but he's not a creator, he's a pure slasher. Wallace can't be the guy because he's not a scoring threat. Payne, who is a better creator than Denson, could also possibly be the guy, but just disappears from time to time. Then you have the Johnsons, Grainger, Greene and Price who aren't quite talented enough yet but with some gym time, could be. And Chubb, man I have grown to love Chubb, maybe because he reminds me of how I played, only he's much better of course. I didn't make it past HS ball. But unless you are Anthony Davis, most bigs aren't ever the guy.

"Change the culture" is always a great idea, but it's a very difficult thing in this day and age to develop discipline in the players necessary to do it. They have to fall in love with winning and learning what it takes to win, not just score a basket so they can look over at the girl they like and see if she's watching (oh wait, that last one was probably just me...). It can certainly change, but it's not going to change quickly.

I dont think we ever "change the culture" until fans demand basketball wins!

[Weegle777 78]

If teams like Gonzaga and VCU can have good teams, an SEC team can. Basketball is a game unlike any other where teams with great fundamentals and a team unity that breeds an insane ability to play as a unit, can absolutely whip an athletically dominant team. Take NBA teams now and place them against the Lakers, Celtics, Pistons, Bulls, Knicks teams of the 80's, and today's teams would get destroyed on a level that would baffle the LeBrons and other players of these teams. Auburn is disjointed and either isn't buying in to Barbee and his plan, or they are just completely incapable of grasping the game. Playing winning basketball isn't that hard.

[DANSBY 0]

It's both. Watch 10 min of any ACC, B1G, or Big East basketball and you will see a stark difference in play style and intensity. I said this last night in the game thread but really it just boils down to basketball knowledge. Some of it comes from the AAU/Nike Elite camps and teams. A lot of them are street ball type teams, pick and roll, trying to beat your guy off the dribble stuff. I have no issue with that. It can be fun to watch. The problem is that you can do that on a high school level, where you can more easily create mismatches, but not on the college level. Everyone in college is as fast as everyone else. The athleticism is largely equal across the board. You have your Anthony Davises at times, but look at some of the other big name guys. Remember Jimmer? He wasn't super fast, super big or even super intense, but he could shoot the lights out. So why can't AU find a guy like that? They are pretty rare these days.

Also, a losing culture is much easier to get into and maintain. Basketball is a game of runs, that's why you see that stat on the screen a lot (AU on a 9-2 in the last 3:30, UK on a 17-3 run in the last 4:36, etc.) That's true at almost every level of the sport. But those runs don't just stop during games, games themselves become runs. Scheduling isn't something AU has any control of, except the non-conference stuff. AU needs to be able to run off 5-6 wins in a row against lesser (but not D2 level) competition to get used to winning.

Basketball turns around in a hurry too. In football, you have 3-4 days to sort of get over a loss before you have to focus ahead. In basketball, you have 3-4 hours. Losses can mount (like AU's have) just because you can't mentally escape the previous loss. That's why AU seems to struggle with the same stuff over and over. They get stuck in a rut, whether it be offesive production or defensive, when things start to go bad in a game, it's usually the same old issues.

Lastly (I could probably do more but you're all done reading now anyway), someone has to be the guy. On every team, there's got to be the guy. Problem is, you can't just WANT to be the guy, you have to have the skills to be the guy. Frankie can be that guy at times, but he's not himself right now. Denson could be the guy, but he's not a creator, he's a pure slasher. Wallace can't be the guy because he's not a scoring threat. Payne, who is a better creator than Denson, could also possibly be the guy, but just disappears from time to time. Then you have the Johnsons, Grainger, Greene and Price who aren't quite talented enough yet but with some gym time, could be. And Chubb, man I have grown to love Chubb, maybe because he reminds me of how I played, only he's much better of course. I didn't make it past HS ball. But unless you are Anthony Davis, most bigs aren't ever the guy.

"Change the culture" is always a great idea, but it's a very difficult thing in this day and age to develop discipline in the players necessary to do it. They have to fall in love with winning and learning what it takes to win, not just score a basket so they can look over at the girl they like and see if she's watching (oh wait, that last one was probably just me...). It can certainly change, but it's not going to change quickly.

I dont think we ever "change the culture" until fans demand basketball wins!

I agree 10,000% with everything jared52 says here. Well stated and spot on. Nice job, feel free to take Friday off work (just tell the lady in HR that Dansby from the message board said it was cool).

On AUGrad's response, I hear what you are saying, but I don't get it. I attend most of the home games and really enjoy them. I, like the rest of AU, b-ball fans want AU to put a good product out there. How do we DEMAND wins? It reminds me of when Michael Scott though he could declare bankruptcy by walking out of his office and saying, "I DECLARE BANKRUPTCY!!!!" Well, "I DEMAND BASKETBALL WINS!!!"

[gonefhin 8]

is it players or coaching?

If this has already been discussed on a previous thread and I missed it, sorry but geez!

Other teams with younger players are coming into Auburn Arena and pushing us around??? really?

I have opinions of my own but I would like someone knowledgable about basketball to please tell me how we can appear to be so bad and what or who is to blame at this point.

My first opinion is whether Chubb is really a D-1 player or NOT! He's a big body sure but he's aweful folks!

He can't hold onto the ball and when he does hold on to it, he takes bad shots a lot and hardly ever finishes the play and blocking out? ha! Whats that? never heard of it!

Small teams like us better be able to knock down some shots which brings me to my next point...do these guys practice shooting? what about an occasional game of horse....something? Consistency in this department is void.

The hustle and play to end that our guys display is inspiring and I'm really not knocking on our guys because I do beleive they are doing the best that they can but something is way off!

Any thoughts?

Aaron has good thoughts in his article

http://www.wareagleextra.com/

Mine are that we do not have a point guard, that is Barbee fault I do not understand why in three years we have not gotten someone, Wallace, love him, but he is not it, and Sullivan is not a point.

Chubb, great big guy to have on the bench, to play 10 min or so a game.

We have a point guard signed for next year. For what thats worth.

I go to most of the home games, live in Opelika, missed last night, lucky there. With an average team I think you fill the gym to 80% with local fans. We want a good basketball team, there is support, more than most people think.

[aucanucktiger 1,796]

Barbee had a decent record coaching a similar level of recruit and his players played w/ focus & intensity before he came to Auburn. I think the program culture point of view is a good one.

[keesler 5,928]

Barbee's been here 3 yrs and he's still playing Lebo's guys? In 3 yrs time he could have found and developed a new Center couldn't he? (This years bbteam is just as fundamentally challenged as our football team was last year.)

[AU64 10,122]

Barbee's been here 3 yrs and he's still playing Lebo's guys? In 3 yrs time he could have found and developed a new Center couldn't he? (This years bbteam is just as fundamentally challenged as our football team was last year.)

Basically true though he has recruited centers (which are rare as an honest Alabama politician) and thus far, none have stuck though ADT looks as if he might make it.

IMO the key is to have several shooters...and we basically have none. We have several slashers and they do well in HS where they are typically bigger than most opponents but generally it doesn't work in college. ...hence all the turnovers.

I watched back and forth between our game and the Duke-UNC game. It was like watching two different sports. Duke has a couple guys who can nail a 3 from anywhere and guards that can get the ball down court without losing control.... and they set up plays, run picks that work, etc...

We have a good PG prospect coming in but we sure need more than one of them and we need some true shooters. I expect TB knows this...but I'm waiting to see them show up on campus.

[Auburn06 76]

It's both. The coaches are not getting these guys ready plus Auburn is a football school, good recruits want to go to a basketball school like most of the Big East and ACC are. On a side note, this is why I am sure FSU will leave the ACC. ACC doesn't care about football, FSU is (when it comes to sports) a football 1st school.

[AUHEARDOC 0]

Barbee's been here 3 yrs and he's still playing Lebo's guys? In 3 yrs time he could have found and developed a new Center couldn't he? (This years bbteam is just as fundamentally challenged as our football team was last year.)

Basically true though he has recruited centers (which are rare as an honest Alabama politician) and thus far, none have stuck though ADT looks as if he might make it.

IMO the key is to have several shooters...and we basically have none. We have several slashers and they do well in HS where they are typically bigger than most opponents but generally it doesn't work in college. ...hence all the turnovers.

I watched back and forth between our game and the Duke-UNC game. It was like watching two different sports. Duke has a couple guys who can nail a 3 from anywhere and guards that can get the ball down court without losing control.... and they set up plays, run picks that work, etc...

We have a good PG prospect coming in but we sure need more than one of them and we need some true shooters. I expect TB knows this...but I'm waiting to see them show up on campus.

Great point. Like watching Syracuse run a 2-3 zone. Looks totally different than anything we do that we call a 2-3.

[NoALtiger 3,868]

I think it's more talent than anything, which unfortunately is Barbee's responsibility. We have very few players that could even be on the bench at the powerhouse basketball programs much less a big time contributor. I like Barbees system and he seems to be an ok game manager, but if your gonna run with the big dogs you gotta have your own big dogs. We don't.

[gonefhin 8]

I know we signed four in the early period, I went to the recruiting thread, it is two or three years old, it says updated 8/20/12, but I cannot find the post. If there is mod out there maybe they could clean that thread up have a recruiting 2013. Since this year seems lost, i really thought we could make the NIT at the start of the year, maybe a more up beat subject would be recruiting.

Thanks in advance.

[AU64 10,122]

I think it's more talent than anything, which unfortunately is Barbee's responsibility. We have very few players that could even be on the bench at the powerhouse basketball programs much less a big time contributor. I like Barbees system and he seems to be an ok game manager, but if your gonna run with the big dogs you gotta have your own big dogs. We don't.

At least we are starting to sign some 3* players that actually show up...that's progress ....not up to UK and UF but moving in the right direction. In years past, we lost a number of the highest rated recruits before they got here....or soon after. It would really be nice to see all the underclassmen come back next year...but that has not been the case in recent years ...with Lebo or TB.

[AUBourne 425]

I know we signed four in the early period, I went to the recruiting thread, it is two or three years old, it says updated 8/20/12, but I cannot find the post. If there is mod out there maybe they could clean that thread up have a recruiting 2013. Since this year seems lost, i really thought we could make the NIT at the start of the year, maybe a more up beat subject would be recruiting.

Thanks in advance.

We signed 3 in the early period not 4. We have one committed for the regular signing period in April. Here is the link where you can see their profiles on 247 Sports. LINK

I think if AU wants to sign more than that they have to experience attrition. We are still actively recruiting some big men so it is possible.

[AUBourne 425]

I think it's more talent than anything, which unfortunately is Barbee's responsibility. We have very few players that could even be on the bench at the powerhouse basketball programs much less a big time contributor. I like Barbees system and he seems to be an ok game manager, but if your gonna run with the big dogs you gotta have your own big dogs. We don't.

At least we are starting to sign some 3* players that actually show up...that's progress ....not up to UK and UF but moving in the right direction. In years past, we lost a number of the highest rated recruits before they got here....or soon after. It would really be nice to see all the underclassmen come back next year...but that has not been the case in recent years ...with Lebo or TB.

Our recruiting has been behind our SEC brethren. Which is bad because it appears CTB needs superior athletes to compete. I lifted the below from another message board.

SEC schools Top 100 signees from 2010-2013 (ESPN):

Kentucky 18

LSU 9 (5 in 2013 class)

Florida 6

Alabama 6

Arkansas 5

MS ST 4

Missouri 4

S Car 4

Tenn 4

TX AM 4

Vandy 4

Auburn 2

Ole Miss 1

Georgia 1

[gonefhin 8]

I know we signed four in the early period, I went to the recruiting thread, it is two or three years old, it says updated 8/20/12, but I cannot find the post. If there is mod out there maybe they could clean that thread up have a recruiting 2013. Since this year seems lost, i really thought we could make the NIT at the start of the year, maybe a more up beat subject would be recruiting.

Thanks in advance.

We signed 3 in the early period not 4. We have one committed for the regular signing period in April. Here is the link where you can see their profiles on 247 Sports. LINK

I think if AU wants to sign more than that they have to experience attrition. We are still actively recruiting some big men so it is possible.

Thanks for the link. I thought four because I was counting KT Harrell, the transfer who is redshirting?? (can't play) this year. They have KT listed as a junior will he have two years or one starting next year? I hope we do not have any attrition, although it seems to happen every year.

[AU64 10,122]

I think it's more talent than anything, which unfortunately is Barbee's responsibility. We have very few players that could even be on the bench at the powerhouse basketball programs much less a big time contributor. I like Barbees system and he seems to be an ok game manager, but if your gonna run with the big dogs you gotta have your own big dogs. We don't.

At least we are starting to sign some 3* players that actually show up...that's progress ....not up to UK and UF but moving in the right direction. In years past, we lost a number of the highest rated recruits before they got here....or soon after. It would really be nice to see all the underclassmen come back next year...but that has not been the case in recent years ...with Lebo or TB.

Our recruiting has been behind our SEC brethren. Which is bad because it appears CTB needs superior athletes to compete. I lifted the below from another message board.

SEC schools Top 100 signees from 2010-2013 (ESPN):

Kentucky 18

LSU 9 (5 in 2013 class)

Florida 6

Alabama 6

Arkansas 5

MS ST 4

Missouri 4

S Car 4

Tenn 4

TX AM 4

Vandy 4

Auburn 2

Ole Miss 1

Georgia 1

What's interesting is that the pool of players is about 400+/- and other than UK, the SEC teams have recruited about 40 of the top 400 players over that period of time. And even including UK, that means that something like 80% of the top 100 go outside of the SEC. IMO, that's the real story and AU getting 2 in the four year span....and most of the rest of the SEC getting maybe 4 or five over that same time period is incidental...especially when the SEC teams ( other than UK and maybe UF) are getting kids ranked in the bottom quarter of that top 100.

Nobody in the SEC except the top 2 teams are getting any serious talent. I'm watching LSU and USCe and they are just as bad as AU, UGa and most of the SEC....nobody can shoot and it's street ball for the most part.

I don't know the solution but I'm pretty sure that firing coaches every four years ain't the answer.

[AUBourne 425]

The last time AU fired a coach before he had completed less than 5 seasons was 1949. And when a coach shows no improvement in any part of the program and the inability to compete against weak OOC teams or a very down SEC then it is probably time to admit it was a bad hire and move on.

[NoALtiger 3,868]

The last time AU fired a coach before he had completed less that 5 seasons was 1949. And when a coach shows no improvement in any part of the program and the inability to compete against weak OOC teams or a very down SEC then it is probably time to admit it was a bad hire and move on.

Well you certainly can't say AU hasn't given coaches time. None have had less than 5 seasons, wow. We've barely been to the Big Dance 5 times in my whole life and I'm knocking on 40. Ha!

[AU64 10,122]

What;s really scary is that the last AU basketball coach to have a winning career record in the SEC is Joel Eaves....who left in 1963 when I was a junior at AU.

If having a losing basketball season was really justification for firing the AD, we would have run through a bunch of them over the years.

It's not like that AU having a mediocre (or worse) basketball program is something new though it would be nice to break the pattern.

[AUBourne 425]

Watching St Mary's vs Gonzaga. St Mary's plays in high school arena but either of these teams would crush AU and most other SEC schools because of coaching. There is no way a school like St Mary's could support a coach like AU could.

[aufan57 922]

Slightly off topic, but Frank Martin ripped his team last night after an embarrassing loss home loss 64-46 to LSU. All we get is disappointing from the coach. SEC basketball is not very good. Florida is a good team, but not final four imo.

Frank Martin

[minister of music 0]

I am sorry but we all seem to miss the business part of SEC basketball. It is supply and demand. As long as demand little that is all we are going to get. It is useless to sell the idea that basketball can be a PAYING sport in Alabama. It can't and won't ever be. If we become inept in football as we are in basketball this university's revenue's would plummet. As long as we as fans, say (as i did on another thread)."let's get this season over and get to football" and Football is the KING, we will deal with just a "whatever" basketball team. Again, it seems the best we can do(money wise and sports wise) is Tony Barbee and we will limp through another horrible season and say with a sigh...WAIT TILL NEXT YEAR.