Aufan59

Do you consider the test to be fair? Millions of humans have lived and died not even knowing the text existed, through no fault of their own. I can understand the glamor of passing the test and the fear of failing it, but how can you ignore the plight of those that didn’t even get to take it?

Yes, I used society’s agreed upon definition of evil - as all words are defined by society. You took the opportunity to flip this around and change my definition of evil - that anything and everything society has ever found unpopular could be considered evil. You agreed to the premise only by arbitrarily changing the definition. If that universe is impossible and he knew it (all knowing), he could have not created the universe. The point still applies. And many observations show that this is false, he did create a universe with suffering. To be honest I’ve lost some interest in this debate with you, in lieu of your other position…that you are adamant meaning cannot arise from materialism, even for the person observing their own consciousness. Empathy is naturally occurring and objectively exists. Understanding that I have a shared experience with every other conscious living thing is quite meaningful to me, and to many others. It is also fascinating based on the complexity required, and how it manifested from nothing but a collection of molecules obeying the laws of thermodynamics.

Yes this is a fair assessment.

Of course they do.

Empathy arises from physical forces. I feel empathy therefore I care.

What separates us from the rocks and trees is consciousness and intelligence. I find meaningfulness from the shared experience of consciousness with others. Just because I’m a collection of molecules with no free will doesn’t invalidate my conscious experience.

I guess to refresh you on logic, logic requires a premise and a conclusion. My premise was that rape and genocide are evil. The conclusion is that someone/something who intentionally, knowingly and avoidably created rape and genocide is also evil. You can refute the truth of the premise or the validity of the claim. You agree with the premise, I agree with the premise, the whole forum agrees with the premise. Starting with that premise is absolutely logical. I think the claim is valid too. Knowingly, intentionally and avoidably creating evil is evil. You would apply this to logic to any other actor in any other situation, would you not? You tried to refute the validity of the claim in multiple ways: The first was by saying that my proposed universe with free will intact may be a logical contradiction. This may well be, but does not mean that it was unavoidable, as it could easily be avoided by not creating the universe. The second was that god may have initially created the universe without any pain, suffering, etc., but the rebellious caused that. This is not refuting the claim, but instead refuting the premise by reducing god’s power either to know all or create, as if he made a mistake that will be corrected While you agree with the premise, I would say your later points are arguing against it, saying that god knows better: “…[god] probably knows a little more about what should be happening…” This is why I don’t want to have a debate on morality with a theist, because ultimately horrendous things are justified using god. Hamas cooking babies is not only a part of god’s plan, but I am “laughably arrogant” for questioning the plan. I prefer you stick to agreeing with the premise like you originally did - as I don’t care to debate whether rape and genocide are evil. But since you seem to really just want a philosophical discussion about morality, I’ll throw you a bone, go ahead and describe your logical morality based on your world view like you proposed in a previous response to me. I’ll listen!

I say that morality is defined by society and you turn on its head to mean morality is anything society defines. You have confirmed why I have zero interest in debating the definition of morality with a theist. However the UFO analogy does work. We don’t have to agree with what UFOs are, just that an all powerful god must have created UFOs. Presuming you think that UFOs are awful and should not exist, whatever that means to you in your heart and mind, then why worship a god that created UFOs? Especially if he could create a universe without UFOs? This extends to things that might not be defined as immoral. Malaria, child cancer, Alabama football. Why would someone worship a god that created things that they find reprehensible? Back to my original point, I agree with the original post that we need fewer of those people around, and more atheists.

The Bible talks a lot about the reward. I don’t think it is presumptuous to talk about the goal of being rewarded for worshipping god. I was just stating that it is selfish to worship evil in exchange for reward. I also don’t see how “good” is dependent on free will.

Unless god’s future work undoes endless suffering at the hands of evil, saying that his work is not done is a coping mechanism. Worshiping an evil god for the chance at some reward is a very selfish act, and I could see how otherwise good people would need to cope. I have done many good things in my life without having any free will. I don’t see how the two are related.

There are many design flaws including in nature. I don’t think the wolf is evil for eating the deer. Just as the dogs in dog fighting rings are not evil, but the creators of said rings lack some sort of morality or empathy. I was just focusing on the human nature driven ones. Why create so many flaws and so much suffering when it wasn’t necessary?

All roads lead to an evil god presuming he is all powerful. One option that is missing is that god simply not create the universe.

I didn’t intentionally create a world with evil, so in some respects I am better. As are many others.

God knew we would fail, why did he still create us? That was the evil decision. Isn’t he powerful enough to create humans that wouldn’t fail? Blaming people for god’s failures is like blaming the players when the coach failed. Or blaming the students when the teacher failed. Or blaming the customers when the business failed. Etc. For god to have knowingly and intentionally created a world that would result in evil, he must himself be evil.

You are starting to get it. Why would a god create a universe that allows for us to choose evil? Why would god create a universe where he knew people would choose evil?

He gave us the free will to commit evil, which he knew we would commit. God did not have to create us as is, or at all. But he still chose to create evil.

You keep giving examples of a god that is not all powerful and all knowing. My reasoning only applies to an all powerful, all knowing god.

He set up the chess board, made the rules, and created the players. He knew the chess game would result in unspeakable evils. He did not have to set up the chess board at all but still did, despite knowing what unspeakable evils would follow. He didn't choose to create it a different way that would have not resulted in evil. This is pure evil, and should be recognized as such.

You don't think god knew that the Golden Gate Bridge would be created before it was created? So you don't believe in an all knowing god?

Not sure without looking it up. Did god know the Golden Gate Bridge would be created when he created the universe? Could he have created a universe where the Golden Gate Bridge was not created? If he is all powerful and all knowing, the answer to both of those questions is yes.

If god is all powerful and knows the past, present and future, then he knew what he was creating and the results of what he was creating. An all powerful god that created everything must have created evil. Intentionally creating evil in my opinion makes you evil.

Yes, an all powerful god created everything. Even the bad things. Maybe you don’t believe in an all powerful god, which is respectable.

But Jesus looked at them and said, "For mortals it is impossible, but for God all things are possible" (Matthew 19:26). It was possible for an all powerful god to create this world without rape, genocide, torture, child cancer. But he did not. Why not? The simplest and most logical answer is that he is evil.

There is no struggle, the answer is very simple, don’t worship an evil god. Don’t worship evil is not a provocative position. What is provocative are those who suggest you should worship evil or you will be punished. I forgive them though, as they are the #2 category I originally mentioned, brainwashed by evil.

If god is all powerful, then he knew exactly what he was doing, and the result of what he created. And he did not have to create it this way, or at all. An all powerful god that creates evil is evil. People who worship an all power god are worshiping evil.