Aufan59

God knew we would fail, why did he still create us? That was the evil decision. Isn’t he powerful enough to create humans that wouldn’t fail? Blaming people for god’s failures is like blaming the players when the coach failed. Or blaming the students when the teacher failed. Or blaming the customers when the business failed. Etc. For god to have knowingly and intentionally created a world that would result in evil, he must himself be evil.

You are starting to get it. Why would a god create a universe that allows for us to choose evil? Why would god create a universe where he knew people would choose evil?

He gave us the free will to commit evil, which he knew we would commit. God did not have to create us as is, or at all. But he still chose to create evil.

You keep giving examples of a god that is not all powerful and all knowing. My reasoning only applies to an all powerful, all knowing god.

He set up the chess board, made the rules, and created the players. He knew the chess game would result in unspeakable evils. He did not have to set up the chess board at all but still did, despite knowing what unspeakable evils would follow. He didn't choose to create it a different way that would have not resulted in evil. This is pure evil, and should be recognized as such.

You don't think god knew that the Golden Gate Bridge would be created before it was created? So you don't believe in an all knowing god?

Not sure without looking it up. Did god know the Golden Gate Bridge would be created when he created the universe? Could he have created a universe where the Golden Gate Bridge was not created? If he is all powerful and all knowing, the answer to both of those questions is yes.

If god is all powerful and knows the past, present and future, then he knew what he was creating and the results of what he was creating. An all powerful god that created everything must have created evil. Intentionally creating evil in my opinion makes you evil.

Yes, an all powerful god created everything. Even the bad things. Maybe you don’t believe in an all powerful god, which is respectable.

But Jesus looked at them and said, "For mortals it is impossible, but for God all things are possible" (Matthew 19:26). It was possible for an all powerful god to create this world without rape, genocide, torture, child cancer. But he did not. Why not? The simplest and most logical answer is that he is evil.

There is no struggle, the answer is very simple, don’t worship an evil god. Don’t worship evil is not a provocative position. What is provocative are those who suggest you should worship evil or you will be punished. I forgive them though, as they are the #2 category I originally mentioned, brainwashed by evil.

If god is all powerful, then he knew exactly what he was doing, and the result of what he created. And he did not have to create it this way, or at all. An all powerful god that creates evil is evil. People who worship an all power god are worshiping evil.

I was quoting the Bible. I guess that passage is wrong?

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. - Isaiah 45:7

You're getting into a debate about the definition of morality, which is not my intention nor is it required for the point I was making. Instead, I start a point of presumed agreement: that rape, genocide, torture, etc. are especially immoral (evil). If you agree with that statement, then logically an all powerful god that created rape, genocide and torture is also especially immoral (evil). To go further, we don't even need to agree on what specific things are evil. We only need to agree that evil does indeed exist. If you believe evil exists, and believe in an all powerful god that created everything, then you believe in an evil god. I understand to refute this point you need to create a debate on morality, to give an all powerful god some wiggle room or ambiguity as an excuse for creating evil. I'd rather just say you are right about morality than argue about morality requiring free will, god, etc. I assure you I'm not pretending, nor is this stance is donning on me right now. I am not outraged or scandalized by the universe acting like the universe. However I would be outraged if the universe acted like this at the hands of all powerful creator. Luckily I have no logical reason to believe that there is an all powerful creator - and as you point out, no emotion reason to believe it either.

Evil is especially immoral. Morality is an agreed upon set of rules for society. We can get reductionist about this, but based on experiencing the human condition (being able to experience pain, sorrow, etc.), all reasonable people believe that the atrocities I have listed are especially immoral. Regardless, conversation and debate is about finding common ground. If we cannot agree on the basics that rape, genocide, torture, etc. are immoral, then we don't have common ground and further discussion is not warranted. I have no interest is making this point, as there is no room for free will in the universe as we understand it. There is no inherent justice in the universe. It is a brutal place filled with pain, suffering, and misery.

If God proved to you beyond a shadow of a doubt that He exists and you still "chose" to "not believe in Him," that really means you would know He exists...it would be impossible for you to not know it...but you reject Him because you think you know how the universe should run better than the entity who created it and you are angry that he has the power to do so and you don't. I would be angry because he had the power to not create evil, yet he did. I would be angry because by definition he is evil. Again, no. You said "logically." In truth, LOGICALLY, you don't even have any objective basis to consider the things you object to about the universe "evil" other than your own subjective opinion, which would hold no more water than anyone else's subjective opinion. I consider things like genocide, torture, rape, and other atrocities are objectively evil. A world view that thinks this is subjective opinion is absolutely disgusting and unconscionable. Are you really taking that stance?

I agree it is not that complicated. If god is "all powerful", he could have created a world without rape, incest, murder, torture, genocide and abortion. He did not. And your justification? Because he wanted affection. God has pets because he wants affection, even if that means he runs a dog fighting ring to get that affection? An all powerful god created evil, thus an all powerful god is evil. Worship of him falls into category 2 I described above.

I don't see how free will is relevant here. I was speaking about the worship of an "all powerful" god. I could understand the belief (maybe not worship) of a not "all powerful" god that you mention.

I will agree with the premise of the article, specifically to those who worship an "all powerful" god. We need more atheists. Not because they are atheists, but because they reject the idea of an "all powerful" god. For example, all it takes to be an atheist is to have experienced or learned about any of the atrocities of life. If an "all powerful" god (for example the Christian god) were to tap me on the shoulder and present himself, I would still be an atheist. I would still choose to not believe that something or someone so evil exists. I think we all have experienced this feeling - learning about some evil act, and wishing that it did not happen. If you have experienced this, you have experienced atheism. Those who choose to worship an "all powerful" god logically fall into one of two camps: 1) Completely evil - they knowingly worship someone/something who is responsible for rape, torture, murder, genocide, abortion, and every other evil atrocity that has ever and will ever exist. 2) Completely brainwashed by evil - they worship someone/something who is responsible for rape, torture, murder, genocide, abortion, and every other evil atrocity that has ever and will ever exist, but aren't clever enough to understand they are worshiping this evil. So if I were drafting a population to fill my town, city, state, country, world, etc., and my choices were 1) evil, 2) brainwashed by evil, 3) none of the above... I choose 3.